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Yes, I recently ran a game for a paladin and his purchased, combat-trained lion.
Your cautionary tale is comforting as it is the exact right way to handle these animals (pardon the pun!)
Simple enforcement of the RAW is enough to banjax those trying to auto-win and game the system, as the DC's are a right pain for most players. Yes, there will be some Druids and Rangers (for example, not an exhaustive list) who will have dedicated skills and resources to correctlyutilise shop bought animals, but then thats all fair enough, as they have put the player resources and skills in place to make it happen.
The checks can be high, you need to spend move actions commanding the animals, there can be effects on initiative etc, and if players wish to still go down that path then their happiness will hinge on their preparations :)
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Thanks for the information, Will Johnson.
I would like to hear from someone who ran a game at tier 1-3 who had to deal with an animal companion. We need data.
As a GM, I agree that a single overpowered character lessens the fun of other players (and the GM) a great deal. I'm not an adversarial GM at all, my job is to create fun. The tier 1 single-lion stomp, I believe from my experience, will lessen fun. I haven't dealt with it yet, and if I do at the upcoming con, I'll let you know how it goes.
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Just play by the RAW Nicholas, anyone just trying to game the system will come undone as they try to lumber their cannon around, and invariably cause more problems than they solve as a result.
It's like having a Russian Tank, great if you can even get it started and know how it works, otherwise its the worlds smallest castle stuck going nowhere fast and doing little but drawing the wrong kind of attention.
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Thanks for the information, Will Johnson.
I would like to hear from someone who ran a game at tier 1-3 who had to deal with an animal companion. We need data.
As a GM, I agree that a single overpowered character lessens the fun of other players (and the GM) a great deal. I'm not an adversarial GM at all, my job is to create fun. The tier 1 single-lion stomp, I believe from my experience, will lessen fun. I haven't dealt with it yet, and if I do at the upcoming con, I'll let you know how it goes.
An overpowered character hogging the spotlight does make the game less fun. My colorspray gnome is very powerful. There were times when I felt if I did not end the fight with one spell. Players would have died. Although for contained fights I find reasons not to praticpate. He likes drinking random potions. So powerful characters do not wreck the game spot light hogs do. They also do not have to be powerful to do that. I played last weekend with a lady that would spend minutes argueing with NPCs after she failed her checks. Then spend another 15 minutes that she had 15 AC flatfooted and touch with no magical items at level 1.
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Defend does not mean go after anything you attack.
1) you can use the defend trick to have it going on auto pilot. Since you and it are in the same spot, it will go after anything you do
2) its a damned combat trained warhorse. It hits things. Its a weapon in its own right, thats what its for.
Defend (DC 20): The animal defends you (or is ready to defend you if no threat is present), even without any command being given. Alternatively, you can command the animal to defend another specific character.
So how exactly does a warhorse defend you from that bandit you're sticking your sword into, and have stopped right next to, except by putting a hoof in his face?
Now sure, the horse might decide that bandit number 2 looks scarier, and a lion might decide that bandit number 4's aftershave makes him smell delicious, but there is no sane way to interpret defend in this context besides "tries to beat the snot out of things that are blatantly trying to kill you"
#2 is nonsense, war trained it jut means it comes with tricks, nothing else.
Whats nonsense is telling me that you effectively can't get a warhorse to attack, and that the reality of what they did is simply to unbelievable to have in a fantasy world.
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It wouldn't be too hard to have a 15 Touch and Flatfooted AC at lvl. 1. Studded leather Armor, Heavy Shield, and a Dex of 20 is not outside the realms of possibility. Just pointing out.
Touch is without armor and flatfooted is without dexterity or dodge bonuses. The only thing you could have is a deflection bonus. NONE of the things you pointed out would help a touch and flatfooted attack.
For 2 stars you should be aware of that.
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The type of animal should be considered as well when dealing with behaviour.
A warhorse is still a prey animal, it's idea of defense is intimidation, interference, and harrassing, not attacking. Horses can and do attack sometimes but not like a dog or cat will. In truth being war trained is just being trained to not fear the sounds of battle, to remain calm and do as the rider directs in the presence of danger and to wear barding. And even then, how much the horse trusts you will heavily effect whether they flee.
A dog on the other hand is not only a predator, and thus likely to directly attack a threat, but also a natural pack minded creature and thus would do things like flanking automatically.
A leopard as a predator will attack a threat, but isn't a pack hunter and therefore unlikely to flank without training.
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Defend (DC 20): The animal defends you (or is ready to defend you if no threat is present), even without any command being given. Alternatively, you can command the animal to defend another specific character.
So how exactly does a warhorse defend you from that bandit you're sticking your sword into, and have stopped right next to, except by putting a hoof in his face?
Sticking your sword into a bandit does not cause a defending animal to attack. A bandit sticking a sword into you does. That's an important difference. If it helps, readied is a standard action taking the animal out of ini order. Plenty of people will stand next to you with a sword, (guards, watchmen, bouncers, allies) without being attacked by a defending animal.
It wouldn't be too hard to have a 15 Touch and Flatfooted AC at lvl. 1. Studded leather Armor, Heavy Shield, and a Dex of 20 is not outside the realms of possibility. Just pointing out.Touch is without armor and flatfooted is without dexterity or dodge bonuses. The only thing you could have is a deflection bonus. NONE of the things you pointed out would help a touch and flatfooted attack.
For 2 stars you should be aware of that.
Dex 20 covers touch 15
Studded leather + heavy shield puts you at 15 flat-foot.
Edit : studded leather gives +3 not +2.
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It wouldn't be too hard to have a 15 Touch and Flatfooted AC at lvl. 1. Studded leather Armor, Heavy Shield, and a Dex of 20 is not outside the realms of possibility. Just pointing out.Touch is without armor and flatfooted is without dexterity or dodge bonuses. The only thing you could have is a deflection bonus. NONE of the things you pointed out would help a touch and flatfooted attack.
For 2 stars you should be aware of that.
Dex 20 covers touch 15
Studded leather + heavy shield puts you at 14 flat-foot by itself anything else that affects flat foot would hit 15 no problem.
I think you completely misunderstand. Flatfooted and touch both at the same time. As in you are flatooed and without armor.
"and" means both effects. As in fatgiued and slowed, or sickend and paniced, ect
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Sticking your sword into a bandit does not cause a defending animal to attack. A bandit sticking a sword into you does. That's an important difference. If it helps, readied is a standard action taking the animal out of ini order. Plenty of people will stand next to you with a sword, (guards, watchmen, bouncers, allies) without being attacked by a defending animal.
Its a mount. It goes on your initiative.
Seriously, why is it so hard to believe that a critter can tell the difference between someone standing next to you and someone intent on hitting you? Do you people have no experience with dogs or do you need to see a mechanic for everything?
It wouldn't be too hard to have a 15 Touch and Flatfooted AC at lvl. 1. Studded leather Armor, Heavy Shield, and a Dex of 20 is not outside the realms of possibility. Just pointing out.Touch is without armor and flatfooted is without dexterity or dodge bonuses. The only thing you could have is a deflection bonus. NONE of the things you pointed out would help a touch and flatfooted attack.
For 2 stars you should be aware of that.
Dex 20 covers touch 15
Studded leather + heavy shield puts you at 14 flat-foot by itself anything else that affects flat foot would hit 15 no problem.
I think you completely misunderstand. Flatfooted and touch both at the same time. As in you are flatooed and without armor.
"and" means both effects. As in fatgiued and slowed, or sickend and paniced, ect
Ah sorry about the miss understanding
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Hmm... somewhat on the subject of what would a non-combat trained animal do...
A friend that I'm trying to get into pathfinder has this concept revolving around Beguileing Gift, and Badgers. He wants to make a witch that stands next to you holding a badger, then cast beguileing gift on you. You fail the save and must now take the badger and use it somehow... He really wants to hit 10th level with it, so he can make Beguiling Gift into a hex, and give a badger to every person he comes across.
How do you use a badger? And what does the badger think of this? The thing's 20 lbs, so you'll probably need both hands free to grab the thing too.
He'll be incredibly disapointed that badger isn't a valid familiar type for the witch, but at least they're only 15gp. Also sad that they're not on the summoning lists.
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Thanks for the information, Will Johnson.
I would like to hear from someone who ran a game at tier 1-3 who had to deal with an animal companion. We need data.
As a GM, I agree that a single overpowered character lessens the fun of other players (and the GM) a great deal. I'm not an adversarial GM at all, my job is to create fun. The tier 1 single-lion stomp, I believe from my experience, will lessen fun. I haven't dealt with it yet, and if I do at the upcoming con, I'll let you know how it goes.
I'll step up a bit here: I played (not ran) with a local Nagaji paladin who purchased a snake for his character early on (he's got high CHA as a paladin, and Nagaji gives a +2 bonus to handle animal checks with the snake/reptiles). (If he reads this, maybe he'll jump in on the issue as well, maybe not). Anyway, I think we played through... 4-01 Rise of the Goblin Guild and 3-01 The Frostfur Captives (those are the two low-tier ones I recall being in with his paladin at levels 1-2ish).
He has a little trouble making the handle animal checks from time to time, but generally succeeded. The snake wasn't overpowered, but did get to do some things that were "cool" (like climbing a tower to attack goblins--it has a climb speed) and grab/constricting various enemies (making them easier to hit and doing damage).
The player GM's a lot, so knew the rules well and followed them, and generally was quick with getting his rolls done and deciding what he was going to do, so it wasn't a problem time-wise.
I do not waste a dead purchased pet. I keep the corpses then use them in animate dead spells. Sense you payed for them they still belong to you even after they die.
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No, but it honestly added 45 minutes to the game's run time. Mostly this was due to the player not understanding the rules for handle animal and insisting on researching each issue as I enforced it. Future games with the same player would probably only be delayed by about 15 minutes.
You are significantly more patient than I, apparently. After about the second time we had to sit awkwardly while he looked something up, I would have said something like "Dude, if you don't know the rules for using this animal, we can either keep going without it--you 'sent him home' or something--or you can accept my rulings. But I'm not going to sit here and let you delay this game every time you try to do something with it."
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I do not waste a dead purchased pet. I keep the corpses then use them in animate dead spells. Sense you payed for them they still belong to you even after they die.
That's ... a fair argument, actually. And now I want a necromancer whose inventory is full of stuff like "badger corpse ... horse skeleton ... dead bird."
I have necromancer for that very thing. Especially when your bison dies. Hehe the DR comes in nice and extends the usefulness quite a bit. That combined with false focus (tatoo 100 gold pieces) makes for a good adventure buddy that lasts a scenario.