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I take that to mean that the Eidolon doesn't heal on its own. As in, will not regain HP from a good night's sleep, and by extension will not regain extra HP from a healer's kit/heal check.
But magical healing should work, right? A cleric's channel or CLW should work as normal on an Eidolon. It's the synthetic Eidolons that suffer from temporary Hit Pointitis, far as I knew.
I bring it here because there's some debate about this at actual tables. And if I'm wrong I want to know.
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No, an eidelon doesn't heal except by the summoner spell that heals eidelons.
I believe this does not apply to an Unfettered Eidelon, however. Otherwise they wouldn't exist for long. :)
Now, on a related note, I believe a cleric with the channel that works on outsiders might be able to heal an eidelon. That would be more of a GM thing though.
They don't heal by natural means (sleeping, resting)
However, I can't find anywhere that says that Eidolons are not valid targets for Cure Anything Wounds(, mass).
I don't see how not healing naturally would stop it from being healed by CLW/Channel, however if CLW/Channel doesn't work a wand of Infernal healing works fine.
Why wouldn't channel work on an outsider? They are living creatures.
Sorry, got the FAQ on the synthesist confused with the general Eidelon.
However, Channel apparently doesn't work on outsiders, even though they are living.
Alignment Channel
Choose chaos, evil, good, or law. You can channel divine energy to affect outsiders that possess this subtype.
Prerequisites: Ability to channel energy.
Benefit: Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype. You must make this choice each time you channel energy. If you choose to heal or harm creatures of the chosen alignment subtype, your channel energy has no effect on other creatures. The amount of damage healed or dealt and the DC to halve the damage is otherwise unchanged.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a new alignment subtype. Whenever you channel energy, you must choose which type to effect.
There would be no need to take a feat to heal outsiders, if they could be healed normally by channel. Not sure if this affects native outsiders. I would think not, and they can be affected normally by channels without the feat. Probably worth an FAQ though.
That doesn't make any sense. Pretty sure alignment channel is to specifically harm/heal outsiders like you would harm/heal undead.
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Why would you need it to heal outsiders, if you can already heal them?
If you can harm outsiders with negative energy because they are living, why would you need a feat to do the same thing?
Cleric without Alignment Channel channel's energy to cure living within 30 feet. Outsider is 20 feet away. If the channel affects him, why would you need the feat to heal him then?
The feat only makes sense if you can't affect outsiders without it.
You need it if you want to heal outsiders, and specifically ONLY outsiders, or else you would heal a bunch of other guys as well. Useful if you tend to summon outsiders, and don't want to heal bad guys.
The feat only makes sense if you can't affect outsiders without it.
It also says this particular channel only affects outsiders. Channeling heals or hurts everyone unless you have selective channeling, and that has its own limitations.
*shrug*
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Sounds very similar to the first thread I ever posted. I believe how it works is Alignment channel is the only way to harm outsiders or to keep the heal strictly outsiders.
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Either outsiders are living, and are healed harmed normally by a channel, in which case this is one of the most useless feats I've ever seen. Honestly, it's a MAJOR corner case solved by a feat, and the biggest waste of space in the books. Or you can't affect them normally, in which case the feat is useful.
So, I repeat, *shrug*.
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Eidolons can be healed by any means other than Natural Healing, a specific form of recovery resulting from rest and the passage of time.
The rejuvenate eidolon spells were created to allow the summoner to heal eidolons without giving them access to the cleric spell list. Their existence does not imply other forms of healing are ineffective.
The channeling feats have nothing to do with eidolons. They allow a cleric to selectively heal or harm specific types of allies/opponents. For example: if facing a lot of outsiders a cleric could choose to harm them without affecting his allies.
The way I understood alignment channel was to allow a good cleric to channel energy to harm and evil outsider. Normally positive energy only harms undead, with alignment channel you could harm evil outsiders.
So, long story short. An Eidolon or any other “Outsider” (something brought to the plane where the game is taking place from “any another plane”) cannot benefit, or be harmed by, channeling Positive or Negative energy unless a special feat is used, in my settings.
I disagree with this and think its highly imbalanced. There isn't raw that supports this so its a house rule, one that's really just a nerf to channeling. On the upside, at least infernal healing still heals everything right?
Never been a problem in my campaigns. I do not play the rules as they are written, and feel that people who try to do so are silly (my opinion). I can find no listing for "infernal healing" in the PRD so I cannot answer that question without further guidance, but I'm guessing my answer would be "no that's not right".
It gives fast healing. It usually won't come into play, but if I was a summoner and I was told the cleric channeling doesn't affect me because of home rules and we had a cleric dedicated to healing I might consider playing something else.
This is the rules forum so its RAW people are asking for. You can suggest a house rule but people are usually looking for the rule as written.
Never been a problem in my campaigns. I do not play the rules as they are written, and feel that people who try to do so are silly (my opinion). I can find no listing for "infernal healing" in the PRD so I cannot answer that question without further guidance, but I'm guessing my answer would be "no that's not right".
While I use a number of house rules myself, and don't begrudge anyone from whatever house rules they find fun at their particular gaming table, this specific forum is for 'rules as written'.
Based on the system's rules, Artanthos seems to have given the appropriate answer. Eidolons do not heal damage through natural means - i.e., rest or through Heal checks. Any supernatural means, such as channels or cure spells, heal as normal.
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You confuse me. Why would you, as the summoner, not be affected by the channeling? Do you mean your Eidolon? Because one of the things that's supposed to balance a class that many people see as overpowered is the fact that you have to heal your Eidolon through your own efforts.
Oh and this is not the RAW forum. I do not believe any such thing exists. This is the “Rules Forum” and rules, because they are words, must be interpreted. The only way to maintain that any such thing as “RAW” exists is to put someone into a position of authority and allow that person’s interpretation to be how the rules will be enforced. There is no consensus, never will be, on how rules are to be followed that can be called “RAW” (that’s why we have Lawyers and Judges, instead of just Judges).
Anyway, the OP question cannot be answered by any set of “words” that are RAW. Ultimately, someone, probably the GM, is going to have to say how it is going to work in the game he or she is playing in. Yes, you can go ask James Jacobs how it works, or anyone else “you” think is the final authority, but ultimately, someone is going to say “this is how it works” and that will be how it works.
From the description of the forum itself:
"This forum is for questions and answers about the rules of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. House rules, variants and conversions should be posted in the appropriate Community Content forum."
There often is discussion of RAI in this forum, because you're right - in many cases, the rules are unclear and require interpretation.
However, interpretations of the rules that actively run counter to rules that are clearly written - i.e., house rules, and the variant rules that you mentioned above regarding varying planes of existence - are considered out-of-place on this particular forum.
Okay, however when people post in this forum they are looking for RAW and not the 30 post about individual house rules. Especially when the person is looking for a ruling for PFS which is strict RAW with additional restrictions.
Either outsiders are living, and are healed harmed normally by a channel, in which case this is one of the most useless feats I've ever seen. Honestly, it's a MAJOR corner case solved by a feat, and the biggest waste of space in the books. Or you can't affect them normally, in which case the feat is useful.
So, I repeat, *shrug*.
Alignment Channel is a feat that few people would bother taking -- Selective Channel is far more useful.
But take the case of a good cleric who fights a lot of demons and devils. Since demons and devils are living creatures, the cleric cannot use his channeling ability to harm them without that feat. So, for most clerics the question is whether he fights enough evil outsiders to warrant the expenditure of a feat to harm them with channeled energy.
On the other hand, you have an evil cleric with numerous demons and devils as allies. This cleric cannot use his channeling ability to heal his allies without that feat.
What the Alignment Channel feat gives you is the option to either heal or harm outsiders of a particular alignment sub-type with chaneled energy as well as selectively affect them only. Depending on whether you channel positive or negative energy, you would already have the ability to either heal or harm them (but not both) as you can with other living creatures.
The eidolon is healed by channel energy and cure spells. The only eidolon that is not healed by it, is the synthesis eidolon but it specifically says so. The reason the synthesis version is not healed by normal cure spells is because its hit points are temporary hit points.
However there is a spell spell that is made to heal eidolons. That spells works on all eidolons.
The way I understood alignment channel was to allow a good cleric to channel energy to harm and evil outsider. Normally positive energy only harms undead, with alignment channel you could harm evil outsiders.
The feat is a corner case feat. If you are in a campaign you could choose to only harm or heal outsiders of a certain alignment subtype depending on whether you were channeling positive or negative energy. Outsiders are alive and are healed and harmed by negative and positive energy normally. They have nothing to make them immune to either one in their descriptions.
The small number of reasons why you only want to harm or heal outsiders is why this feat is one that will probably never be seen in a real game.
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The way Alignment Channel is written, you choose which alignment of outsider to "affect", but not whether your channel heals or harms them. Honestly, every time I read this I get the feeling that a Cleric who has this could, regardless of whether he channels negative or positive energy or what alignment he chose when he took the feat, channel energy to heal one round and harm the next depending on his whims.
If outsiders are "living", then there should indeed be no need for this feat. If not, does this feat let you treat them as "living" or as "undead"? If I were a good cleric, could I choose to harm evil outsiders or would I only be able to heal them? If I can channel to harm evil outsiders, does that mean I can't heal good ones? If I'm a paladin, do I heal or harm chaotic outsiders?
Since an eidolon always shares its master's alignment, would a cleric with Alignment Channel have to cast Atonement on the Summoner to get his alignment to "match" before he could heal the summoner's eidolon?
Honestly, people are always talking about the Summoner as being disastrously OP, so I'm fine with a built-in drawback like "can only heal your eidolon with your own spell slots/HP". Even if the eidolon "dies", it just comes back with half health the next day anyway.
Silent you have to choose an alignment subtype when you choose that feat. That is not the same as an outsider of a certain alignment. As an example, even an evil Solar has the good subtype.
So the no outsider's alignment is a factor for this feat.
Also the concensus is that the Eidolon is not OP. 95% of the time the eidolon is built incorrectly using the rules, and as for being OP. Almost any class be OP if built with the intent to take the best options, and it is magnified at certain tables.
In short the rules do not support this drawback even existing.
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If outsiders are "living", then there should indeed be no need for this feat. If not, does this feat let you treat them as "living" or as "undead"? If I were a good cleric, could I choose to harm evil outsiders or would I only be able to heal them? If I can channel to harm evil outsiders, does that mean I can't heal good ones? If I'm a paladin, do I heal or harm chaotic outsiders?
Yes. When you use this feat, irregardless of what you normal happens when you channel energy, you pick a subtype of outsiders and if you want to heal or harm them. Then you deal Xd6 worth of healing or damage (whichever you picked) to that subset of outsiders who get to make a save to resist it.
I have a hard time see why you think being able to harm outsiders with a positive channeling cleric is so entirely worthless you would rather take prone shooter as a feat.
Who said I thought it was worthless? I didn't.
What I'm saying is, it reads like a cleric (no matter what alignment) could channel and harm outsiders one round, then channel to heal those same outsiders the next round. The feat says you choose an alignment, but it says nothing about having to choose heal or harm when you take the feat. So do you get to choose on a case-by-case basis every time you channel? Do you treat the outsiders as living? Do you treat them as undead?
If this feat actually works the way I can't help but read it, it's actually pretty powerful. But I have a hard time believing that's what the feat was intended to do.
Elementals are also outsiders, and they are alive. It does not make sense, but neither does harming air, water, or fire with a sword or club(think about fire elementals).
If outsiders are "living", then there should indeed be no need for this feat. If not, does this feat let you treat them as "living" or as "undead"? If I were a good cleric, could I choose to harm evil outsiders or would I only be able to heal them? If I can channel to harm evil outsiders, does that mean I can't heal good ones? If I'm a paladin, do I heal or harm chaotic outsiders?
Yes. When you use this feat, irregardless of what you normal happens when you channel energy, you pick a subtype of outsiders and if you want to heal or harm them. Then you deal Xd6 worth of healing or damage (whichever you picked) to that subset of outsiders who get to make a save to resist it.
I have a hard time see why you think being able to harm outsiders with a positive channeling cleric is so entirely worthless you would rather take prone shooter as a feat.
Who said I thought it was worthless? I didn't.
What I'm saying is, it reads like a cleric (no matter what alignment) could channel and harm outsiders one round, then channel to heal those same outsiders the next round. The feat says you choose an alignment, but it says nothing about having to choose heal or harm when you take the feat. So do you get to choose on a case-by-case basis every time you channel? Do you treat the outsiders as living? Do you treat them as undead?
If this feat actually works the way I can't help but read it, it's actually pretty powerful. But I have a hard time believing that's what the feat was intended to do.
Whether you can heal or harm them depend on how you are channelling, which depends on if you can channel positive or negative energy. The feat lets you apply to that outsiders specifically. It does not give you the other side of channelling.
Please, reread the description of the outsider type. If you got ANY mention it is not affected by cure spells/healing channeling ability, then copy it here (I didn't find any mention of it, opposed to Construct or Undead).
If an outsider is not forbidden to receive magical healing : the Eidolon can be cured magically [cure, healing channeling], because the only exception it has as an outsider is the fact that it ignores Protection vs [alignment] and Circle of protection vs [alignment].
Channel Energy:
Good clerics or clerics of a good deity MUST channel positive energy
Evil clerics or clerics of an evil deity MUST channel negative energy
Neutral clerics of a neutral deity MUST choose to channel positive or negative energy when they gain the class ability as a level 1 cleric and cannot change it later.
Now the only choice left for a cleric with positive energy is whether to heal everyone or to harm undead each time he uses Channel Energy, or for a cleric with negative energy to harm everyone or to heal undead each time he uses Channel Energy.
The rules for Channel Energy clearly state that positive heals "living" creatures or harms "undead", reverse for negative energy.
Outsider:
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
So clearly outsiders are "living", and can be restored to "life" (with some extra effort).
Since outsiders are living, positive channel energy can heal them and negative channel energy can harm them.
This applies to Eidolons as well, since Eidolons are outsiders. Yes, there are some corner cases (Synthesist) that alter this rule, but those are specific cases that override the general rule that outsiders are living creatures with regard to positive and negative energy.
So what happens if a Good cleric is fighting an Evil cleric? On the first round, they each summon an outsider to fight for them. The good cleric summons an archon, the evil cleric summons a devil. At any time, the good cleric can use Channel Energy and it can heal him and his archon, but he cannot use it to harm the evil cleric or the devil. Likewise, the evil cleric can use Channel Energy to harm the good cleric and the archon, but he cannot use it to heal himself or the devil.
Note that neither the good nor the evil cleric can do anything against the devil, heal it or harm it.
So that, in a nutshell, is why the Alignment Channel feat exists.
Alignment Channel:
Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype. You must make this choice each time you channel energy. If you choose to heal or harm creatures of the chosen alignment subtype, your channel energy has no effect on other creatures.
This means that each time you use this ability you choose to heal or harm outsiders. This is much more flexibility than you get when you gain the Channel Energy class feature (only neutral clerics of a neutral god get any choice, and they only get to make the choice once).
Suppose both clerics in the above example have this feat affecting Lawful alignment.
Now the good cleric can, if he chooses, channel energy to heal or harm lawful outsiders. Both the Archon and the Devil are lawful, so if he heals lawful outsiders, both outsiders are healed but this healing does not affect him or the evil cleric. If he harms lawful outsiders, both outsiders are harmed but this damage does not affect him or the evil cleric. The evil cleric can make exactly the same choice, heal or harm both outsiders.
More interestingly, suppose the evil cleric had summoned a demon instead. Since it is chaotic instead of lawful, his decision to heal lawful outsiders could only affect the archon, something he would not do because it could only benefit his enemies, but if he chose to harm lawful outsiders, he would only damage the archon with no chance of damaging his chaotic demon.
(of course, as always, combining this with Selective Channeling could make it safer for your allies or less beneficial for your enemies).
I hope that clears it all up?
Terquem once I see you did not read my last post. It(alignment channel) is based on alignment subtype, not alignment.
They are NOT the same
Elementals don't generally have alignment subtypes so even though they are outsiders they had to get their own feat.
Here are the rules.
Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype.
Do you see that?
------------------------------------------------------------------------This is showing that elementals are a subtype of another creature type.
Elemental Subtype: An elemental is a being composed entirely from one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water. An elemental has the following features.
Here is part of a stat block.
Small Air Elemental CR 1
XP 400
N Small outsider (air, elemental, extraplanar)
As you can see the creature type is outsider. The subtype is elemental. That is why elemental channel exist
See it is not that difficult.edit:
Alignment channel is for outsiders with alignment subtypes hence the name alignment channel. Otherwise it would be called outsider channel, and elemental channel would not be needed.
Elemental channel is for outsiders with the elemental subtype hence the name elemental channel.
Alignment Channel:
Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype. [b]You must make this choice each time you channel energy.[b] If you choose to heal or harm creatures of the chosen alignment subtype, your channel energy has no effect on other creatures.This means that each time you use this ability you choose to heal or harm outsiders. This is much more flexibility than you get when you gain the Channel Energy class feature (only neutral clerics of a neutral god get any choice, and they only get to make the choice once).
Somehow I misread that. Good catch.
The unfetter eidolon does not have an alignment subtype. Not all outsiders do. Mostly it is the ones that are a certain alignment such as demons and devils that will have an alignment subtype. Others may have no subtype at all.
The unfettered eidlolon is simply one that has broken away from the summoner IIRC.
Thanks, folks. Except for some derailment, this was very helpful. I feel a lot more justified upholding my interpretation of the rules (non-synthetic Eidolons are healed by positive energy).