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Question. Does this wording mean that advanced firearms don't miss on a misfire, only gain broken quality?
Misfire: If the natural result of your attack roll falls within a firearm’s misfire value, that shot misses, even if you would have otherwise hit the target. When a firearm misfires, it gains the broken condition.
Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms can misfire, but when they do, they only gain the broken condition. A further misfire does not cause advanced firearms to explode.
I would say no, it doesn't say anything about changing the rule about it missing, just that it gains the broken condition and never explodes
I would say no, it doesn't say anything about changing the rule about it missing, just that it gains the broken condition and never explodes
One text says it misses and becomes broken. The specific text for advanced says it can misfire but /only/ gains broken.
If you are going to ask peoples opinions on the rules, while already having your mind made up on how it works then don't post in the rules forums.
The secondary text mentions that it can misfire...which by definition means it misses and gains the broken condition.
The difference it gives is what is changed, so adv. firearms do not go further than broken
If I tell you all dogs bark at the sound of a whistle, causing them to drool. After 5 minutes they stop barking.
Then say that Akita's also bark at the sound of a whistle, but they continue barking for 10 minutes
You do not assume based off those statements that Akita's also do not drool do you? NO...you assume that they bark and drool just like all other dogs, however they bark longer.
If you are going to ask peoples opinions on the rules, while already having your mind made up on how it works then don't post in the rules forums.
The secondary text mentions that it can misfire...which by definition means it misses and gains the broken condition.
The difference it gives is what is changed, so adv. firearms do not go further than broken
If I tell you all dogs bark at the sound of a whistle, causing them to drool. After 5 minutes they stop barking.
Then say that Akita's also bark at the sound of a whistle, but they continue barking for 10 minutes
You do not assume based off those statements that Akita's also do not drool do you? NO...you assume that they bark and drool just like all other dogs, however they bark longer.
Wait, I can't have an opinion on how the wording is read? I can still ask for opinions while I have mine own.
I read it as say, Precise Aim. General wording says you take -4 atk when firing into melee. Precise Aim says you don't.
Misfire says you miss and get broken.
Advances says you misfire, but /only/ get broken. It omits the miss.
I never said you couldn't have an opinion, but if someone answers your question, its impolite and disrespectful to say (and I'm paraphrasing) "nah uh...it works this way :P"
You asked and I answered...if you want to get more opinions on it then simply wait and more will come
My question for you is if 100 people come on here and agree with me...is it actually going to change how you believe it should work without a direct dev quote? (as many others have done in the past)
EDIT: I will however apologize for how rude my response must have been...I am not usually that way I promise. It seemed at first that you were simply another person wanting fuel for their "I want it to work this way" fire.
There is currently a Tornado warning where I am at and I happen to live right next to one of the warning alarms...it has been going off for about 5 hours now, LOUDLY, and causing me a massive headache...again I apologize
Of course it still misses. Missing is a property of rolling a 1 on any attack, it's not unique to firearms misfiring. Thinking that it doesn't automatically miss on a 1 because of a technicality in how it's phrased is silly.
All I meant with my reply was to point out that the core text says "miss and broken on misfire" while the specific text after says "only broken and doesn't explode on misfire."
I find it odd that they'd add a whole sentence that repeats the core text of "miss and broken" again, but add the word /only/ in there.
Of course it still misses. Missing is a property of rolling a 1 on any attack, it's not unique to firearms misfiring. Thinking that it doesn't automatically miss on a 1 because of a technicality in how it's phrased is silly.
Firearms can misfire on 1-3. I was talking about misfire, not natural miss.
They always do what they can to take up less space in the books...as many people will point out, if they had to spell out EVERYTHING, EVERY TIME, then we would have a 15,000 page books :)
Again I read it as being implied, RAI, but you read it differently :)
Read my example about the dogs...do you think that Akita's don't drool like the other dogs?
That will give me a better understanding of how you view implied meanings.
My reading is the same as Drakkiel, to add another voice to your topic.
What you are focusing on is most likely simply an editor trying to remove unneccesary repetition to lower wordcount.
So i see it as...
Firearms: Misfire on 1-3, shot misses, gun gains broken condition and is destroyed if a second misfire occurs before repairs happen.
Adv Firearms: Misfire on 1-3, shot misses, gun gains broken condition but is NOT destroyed if a second misfire occurs before repairs happen.
They always do what they can to take up less space in the books...as many people will point out, if they had to spell out EVERYTHING, EVERY TIME, then we would have a 15,000 page books :)
Again I read it as being implied, RAI, but you read it differently :)
Read my example about the dogs...do you think that Akita's don't drool like the other dogs?
That will give me a better understanding of how you view implied meanings.
Using the same format, wouldn't it be worded like this?
Upon hearing the whistle, the dogs bark(miss) and drools(broken).Akita's hear the whistle, but only drools(broken). A further whistle does not make the Akita explode.
This is exact same wording. If Akita barks, it means the whole first sentence is a moot repetition because it neither adds to(like explosion) or remove anything from base text(no splosion).
By default I'm gonna run it as a miss. But the word /only broken/ just seems weird since it neither adds or removes from the rules.
Ah, I see what you're asking. In that case, yes they still miss. The first section on misfires states that a misfire is always a miss, the next section explains what happens on additional misfire results. Likewise the advanced firearms also gain the increased misfire value.
It says 'only broken' under advanced firearms to contrast with the rules for early firearms, not to make it distinct from the rules for firearms in general.
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Ah, I see what you're asking. In that case, yes they still miss. The first section on misfires states that a misfire is always a miss, the next section explains what happens on additional misfire results. Likewise the advanced firearms also gain the increased misfire value.
It says 'only broken' under advanced firearms to contrast with the rules for early firearms, not to make it distinct from the rules for firearms in general.
Yes!
Misfires: If the natural result of your attack roll falls within a firearm's misfire value, that shot misses, even if you would have otherwise hit the target.
Misfire misses regardless.
This..
Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms can misfire, but when they do, they only gain the broken condition. A further misfire does not cause advanced firearms to explode.means this...
Early Firearms: If an early firearm with the broken condition misfires again, it explodes. When a nonmagical firearm explodes, the weapon is destroyed. Magical firearms are wrecked, which means they can't fire until they are fully restored (which requires either the make whole spell or the Gunsmithing feat). When a gun explodes, pick one corner of your square—the explosion creates a burst from that point of origin. Each firearm has a burst size noted in parentheses after its misfire value. Any creature within this burst (including the firearm's wielder) takes damage as if it had been hit by the weapon—a DC 12 Reflex save halves this damage.
doesn't happen with Advanced Firearms.... So as I see it, Advance Firearms can't be destroyed by consecutive misfires whereas an Early Firearm can be destroyed... But not Magical Early Firearms, they are just "wrecked" and unusable until repaired.
It defines misfire for you FIRST, then gives the differences about them gaining the broken condition (or further exploding)
Misfires: If the natural result of your attack roll falls within a firearm's misfire value, that shot misses, even if you would have otherwise hit the target. When a firearm misfires, it gains the broken condition. While it has the broken condition, it suffers the normal disadvantages that broken weapons do, and its misfire value increases by 4 unless the wielder has gun training in the particular type of firearm. In that case, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4.
Early Firearms: If an early firearm with the broken condition misfires again, it explodes. When a nonmagical firearm explodes, the weapon is destroyed. Magical firearms are wrecked, which means they can't fire until they are fully restored (which requires either the make whole spell or the Gunsmithing feat). When a gun explodes, pick one corner of your square—the explosion creates a burst from that point of origin. Each firearm has a burst size noted in parentheses after its misfire value. Any creature within this burst (including the firearm's wielder) takes damage as if it had been hit by the weapon—a DC 12 Reflex save halves this damage.
Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms can misfire, but when they do, they only gain the broken condition. A further misfire does not cause advanced firearms to explode.
The first part gives you a clear explanation of what a misfire is, and the first sentence stats that if you have a misfire you MISS. Everything in the first paragraph applies to ALL firearms
The following 2 paragraphs explain what can happen (or not happen) in the case that you misfire AGAIN. For Advanced Firearms nothing happens after the first misfire, it simply stays broken
EDIT:Closetgamer beat me to it
well the alarms finally stopped :) now if Nexon American can fix their updating system I will be a happy gamer