Hey guys
I have recently taken over as GM my group and wanted to ask how most people deal with PC deaths especially at low levels
Historically we have always just had a new character come in with average character wealth per level and carry on. We rarely have high level clerics in the group so raising does not happen. Equally the permanent negative levels mean that the players I play with would sooner have a full power replacement.
This also causes other issues:
1. In adventure paths treasure and items can be limited. This means a new character can be richer and/or have their choice of items
2. On the flip side surviving pcs could loot their fallen comrade again creating a potentially severe wealth disparity.
How do people usually approach this. I really would rather not have a group with a host of back up characters in mind ready to step in conveniently (also think Reign of Winter could make this tricky too)
1) I haven't noticed that the APs give lower WBL. Granted, I haven't sat down and calculated it out, but I haven't felt particularly underpowered or overpowered going through the adventures. Regardless, it doesn't bother me or anyone in my gaming group if a new character comes in with more wealth. Talk with your group to see if it would bother them.
2) We do a proper funeral with the characters main equipment (armor, weapons, etc), and give their share of the loot to their family. If they had no family, we donate it to whatever institution we think that character would want us to donate.
This solves the issue of getting a higher WBL by "looting" your old friend, and allows the new character to come in with their full WBL.
Concerning the permanent negative levels, that can be restored with a restoration spell. The "permanent" part is only to be in contrast to a "temporary negative level," which is a specific category of negative levels. The temporary version allows for a new saving throw every day until it goes away. A permanent one stays with you until you get a restoration spell cast on you. And if they can already afford the 11,000gp it costs for the resurrection spell, an extra 1,300gp wont hinder them for the restoration spell. You can read about it here.
I keep track of actual character wealth as well as expected character wealth (I'm nuts with spreadsheets) and then I sorta... pick a number that looks good, generally close to where the previous character was. That way people don't just kill off their characters to boost their WBL. I assume the party sells the dead PC's gear and arranges to give the money/leftover items to the PC's family.
I also recommend having some additional stipulation that limits how much gold can be spent on a single item. The Core Rulebook has guidelines but I just do a simple, "no more than 50% on one item."
Unless is pratically impossible, we always try to ress the fallen. Even if you have no clerics, you can always save the corpse and make a run for the nearest big city and trowh 6k to some church get him back. Pooling 6k for the entire party should be feasible without bankroupcy starting by level 4-5 (depending on the number of players).
On the other question, P&P role play is supposed to be superior to running a wow raid becouse you are not dealing with a stupit computer able only of prescripted content, but with a supposedly smart human person who should adjust the game based on his player. Among the many thing a master is supposed to do is balancing the treasure.
So, if you spended a lot of gold to ress somenone, sooner or later youll be back on track with the gold. OFC you shoulda have some trouble 'till that, otherwise there would be no point in playing smart.
On the flipside, even if you get temporary richer by loting dead party member you'll find less gear.
On new char and the starting equipment, if it bother players that someone may have more than the other, a simple 5 minutes check on the relative whealt of PC can solve the issues. Once again, the biggest advantege of playing with people is that people don't follow blindly what's written somewhere.
Even if you have no clerics, you can always save the corpse and make a run for the nearest big city and trowh 6k to some church get him back. Pooling 6k for the entire party should be feasible without bankroupcy starting by level 4-5 (depending on the number of players).
Pooling 6k means you're about 5k short for a resurrection spell.
It requires a 10,000gp diamond for the material component, and I highly doubt the church will front the cost of that themselves. The cost of a spellcaster's services is caster level x spell level x 10gp. Minimum caster level is 13 and the spell level is 7. 13x7x10 = 910gp. Minimum cost for the spell is 10,910gp.
If my group have any game that has limited access to treasure (not just APs) we usually allow a new character but the DM will limit their new treasure. In my game I was running last year I had a period where we had a revolving door of players and PCs, having 1 or more new PCs each week. I just asked the existing PCs to calculate their wealth and then tell the new player to purchase accordingly. Conversely if you feel it's unfair for a new PC to have hand picked treasure instead of piecemeal from the loot, just tell the PC what their equipment is, or give them a smaller list to choose from. Can be a little more work for you, but it's likely fairer for the other players.
As far as looting comrades. Our group, no matter who is DMing, has a strict no looting of PCs policy, for obvious reasons. If a PC dies in our games we can take only McGuffins or "party loot" i.e. we gave him our scroll of raise dead because he's the only one who can use it not because it now belongs to him, or he's carrying the bag of holding with all the loot in it, but it's not "his" bag of holding, it's the party's.
Even if you have no clerics, you can always save the corpse and make a run for the nearest big city and trowh 6k to some church get him back. Pooling 6k for the entire party should be feasible without bankroupcy starting by level 4-5 (depending on the number of players).Pooling 6k means you're about 5k short for a resurrection spell.
It requires a 10,000gp diamond for the material component, and I highly doubt the church will front the cost of that themselves. The cost of a spellcaster's services is caster level x spell level x 10gp. Minimum caster level is 13 and the spell level is 7. 13x7x10 = 910gp. Minimum cost for the spell is 10,910gp.
Maybe he meant raise dead.
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I've been kicking around the idea of allowing other PCs to take some of the fallen PC's gear, provided they pay for it (funeral gifts, widow funds etc), so that while WBL isn't changed, you don't have to throw away some awesome piece of gear the dead PC had.
The flip side of this is allowing the new PC to have a WBL-ish amount of gear, including the recommended "no more than 25% on any one sort of thing" rule.
Newly built and equipped PCs tend to have fairly focused gear, as opposed to PCs that have just collected loot from adventures. That's why I think allowing some grave-gift-exchange for the other PCs isn't unreasonable.
As for level, new PCs start at the same level of the lowest-level PC (from just before the deadly incident; you never level up by dying). I've seen "start a level lower" and it gets awful after a while.
My group is pretty lenient about this. If someone dies and remakes a character, they get full WBL but only 50% of it or less can be spent on one item. This ends up with some focused characters, but then the GM usually makes loot specifically for party memebers (only one spellcaster? guess who gets Pearls of Power?). We do loot the body, but then we usually get less treasure for a session or two. We also don't take WBL as a strict set of laws. We're close, but we fluctuate a bit.
I'm gonna start running restarted characters with full WBL, but 50% has to be assigned by me, but I will be fair if not optimized.
Pooling 6k means you're about 5k short for a resurrection spell.Maybe he meant raise dead.
OFC i did, ty for clarifying in my stead.
I think there is two seperate issues here. Loot balance, and dead/new characters.
1) On the subject of loot gain/loss from dead creatures, I prefer the inheritance/loss of equipment solution, as several has proposed. Alternatively (especially when there isn't any real concieveable way the party would give up the loot), making new characters start without anything other than basic loot and have the party equip them. It requires a rather altruistic party (or players who can disregard it for the benefit of the group).
I wouldn't bother with this at the lowest couple of levels.
2) In my current group, we substitute death with 'death/near death/permanent wounds'. As simple as it is, when you been at negative hp below your con score, you get to roll a d100 + 'amount of negative hp - con score'(stabilize checks continue after "death").
The higher roll, the more severe wound. Death only occurs above 100. Minor wounds might be scarring granting a penalty to certain skill rolls (and perhaps a bonus to others), severe wounds might be loss of a limb and/or reductions in an ability score.
This approach lets the game remain dangerous (perhaps even more so, as the GM doesn't have to pull the punches), while avoiding the revolving door dynamic in the group, and avoiding that bringing people back to life become common place.
Your two questions are actually three - wealth in APs, new characters having their choice of items, and players looting their dead. I'll take them in order.
1. Generally speaking adventure paths actually give out more WBL than normal for a 4 man party with the assumption that some items will be missed, lost, overlooked, sold, or given away. If your party is consistantly coming up with less wealth than they should you might audit some of their actions to see where the extra wealth is going. Go through the AP (or even one chapter) and see what items they missed. They shouldn't be under WBL.
That said, if you have a larger party I can see the issue. My suggestion is increasing the wealth in the AP's appropriately. That same suggestion applies in part if you find your party is simply missing lots of items. They don't ever have to know that the mini-boss in their most recent chapter wasn't supposed to have some extra wealth.
2. The problem with new characters having their pick of items and the ability in general to spend money as they want much more effectively than the party is a very real one. It isn't a problem limited only to wealth. New PCs are able to select more optimal feats for their level and circumstances. They get their pick of spells that might be effective if spellcasters. They also enjoy access to newer products which open up brand new options. As a whole I've found (especially after level 8 or 9) newly introduced characters are almost always significantly more powerful than those from an existing party.
Honestly, there isn't a good answer for that problem without deviating from the norm significantly. In my Saturday night game the GM gives out significantly greater wealth by level than normal - but still gives incoming characters standard wealth by level. That helps a little bit with keeping the gap from getting too large. He also tends to hand out little inherent bonuses to things based on experiences or unique abilities based on unique events in game. Both of those things have helped a little, but the reality is still that the fighter that joined the game at level 10 is even now (5 levels later) more powerful than the one who entered the game at level 1. The same is true of the sorcerer who appeared at level 12 vs. the wizard who has seen play since level 5 (now level 15).
3. My DM ruled that a dead PC must exit the game with the same amount of wealth he had when he died. He can be buried with his gear, he can have it sold and sent back to his family, he can have it sold or donated to outside groups in accordance with a will. Regardless of how it is done, PCs don't simply get to loot them.
OFC i did, ty for clarifying in my stead.Pooling 6k means you're about 5k short for a resurrection spell.Maybe he meant raise dead.
Indeed. I forgot about that spell. My apologies.