Goblin Squad Member
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My entire point is encapsulated here. Players should be free to set the bounds of who they associate with.
If a settlement states in their charter that they will only accept members or visitors that are of a certain alignment and reputation, they are freely setting the bounds of who they associate with. That just might not be you.
Are you saying that they are not free to set the bounds of who they associate with if your choices make your alignment/reputation incompatable with their charter?
There is complex and interesting...there is also frustrating. Coming from eve I am used to complex and interesting frankly this just seems frustrating which is why I say either the system changes in some way or I won't bother.
I play to have fun if you insist on making it not fun by penalising me for rp or by telling me I cant be in a guild with my friends my response will be not supporting the game and naturally I will not keep that reaction to myself anymore than I would if I thought the game was good and worth playing.
I am open to being convinced if someone can come up with a good situation rp wise where the alignement system actually promotes rp. This would have to be something obviously where that event wouldnt happen if the system wasnt there.
Again I repeat this shouldnt be hard if the system is good
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you can elaborate on the frustration you perceive that is a good discussion point?
I can't help/persuade ;) on the RP front. I just see for myself the ability to simulate a character's experience via the game events as nodes for RP'ing a story out of. That's not everyone's idea of RP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If this is the way the alignment system will work out, particularly concerning its influence on settlements, then chaos is certainly the way to go for a settlement. Chaotic will be the easiest alignment axis to build and full proof to maintain because you can turn down any unwanted lawful shifts.
Lawful settlements are going to have to keep a tight control on their size and or their membership. They will have to strctly monitor every members alignment, every choice that they make, and admit new members in a very slow pace.
I was being somewhat sarcastic when I wrote earlier, it isn't RP it is accounting. After reading some of the responses here, apparently some of you are ok with bean counting.... Good luck with that!
"Umm.... Sorry, we know that is your alt but we can't admit him into our settlement at this time. Go grind some Lawful alignment........ Wait..... (Calculator is clicking away)...... Yeah, come back when you have 367 more points in Lawful..... And just to be safe, add another 10%, just to be sure".
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Goblin Squad Member
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If this is the way the alignment system will work out, particularly concerning its influence on settlements, then chaos is certainly the way to go for a settlement. Chaotic will be the easiest alignment axis to build and full proof to maintain because you can turn down any unwanted lawful shifts.
You can turn down the automatic shift. If you're taking actions that grant lawful alignment, you'll still get those. I'm curious to see if completing an assassination contract nets lawful points. It *is* a contract, after all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm curious to see if completing an assassination contract nets lawful points. It *is* a contract, after all.
Whatever gains made for completion of the contract were likely off set by the attacker flags chaotic shift. Besides, chaotic shift is easy to get, just attack often but don't kill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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ZenPagan, you could always RP a Chaotic Evil character, then all of these issues are null and void for you.
This honestly sounds like what you're insinuating your character alignment is anyway. Every scenario you propose results in, "I want to initiate the attack and kill unflagged characters". Unless you're skipping the whole roleplay of the situation, you're jumping straight into random violence -viz, Chaotic Evil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Coming from eve I am used to complex and interesting frankly this just seems frustrating which is why I say either the system changes in some way or I won't bother.
That made me lol. Knowing that you won't bother unless they immediately "fix" the system. I am very sure that they will get right on it.
@jiminy and bluddwolf
No I am not playing a chaotic evil character anyone I kill it will because they have at some point in the recent past (last 2 weeks) have done something to eithe me or someone from my settlement.
My attack will not be uncalled for it will merely fall outside the arbitrary times. I anticate a character alignement of around lawful neutral, maybe true neutral.
I as I said am one of Goblinworks demographics they claim they are aiming at. A non griefing roleplayer who likes sandboxes. Unfortunately as far as I can see the systems they are putting in place are deterring people like me and aiming at two different demographics. That of the people who think systems will keep them safe from interference and those that know systems can be easily exploited to cause maximum pain to the people who think the systems keep them safe.
I still have hopes that GW will change things which is why I am still here. Unfortunately I am beginning to lose hope
@bringslite It is not a threat I perceive the system they have as unplayable therefore if that is what is implemented I wont play. It is not a rage quit it is a simple statement of fact.
I am sure whether I play or not from the start that the system will be changed in short order. There are many who think this system will keep them safe, they are wrong
@Avena
If I have to decide between "this is how my character would react" and "This is how I must react if I dont want to suddenly be ejected from my settlement"
That is frustration and breaking my rp
Anyway frankly I can't be bother arguing here anymore. The people on the forum want to play one way they are welcome to it. It won't work but that is not my problem anymore
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Goblin Squad Member
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@bringslite It is not a threat I perceive the system they have as unplayable therefore if that is what is implemented I wont play. It is not a rage quit it is a simple statement of fact.
I am sure whether I play or not from the start that the system will be changed in short order. There are many who think this system will keep them safe, they are wrong
If the system will not work and you are sure that they will change it, it will be an acceptable game, to you, in short order, will it not? Why quit before it starts then?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Meta Gaming a settlement in order to allow its "members" freedom of action and still maintain a desirable settlement alignment and reputation standards.
Context:
In EVE Online, in many cases a corporation is headed by a CEO Alt, that never actually plays in the game. He / She is actually a figure head and a placeholder for when wars occur. When a War Dec is received by the corporation, its members leave and join NPC corps, leaving the CEO behind. Since he/she never actually plays or leaves dock, then enemy just effectively declared war against a non participant. This allows all other operations of the corporation to continue, at a cost of just 10% tax rate paid to the NPC corporation.
Application:
What if a settlement were set up, with a figure head leader. This leader would do nothing but attain the alignment desired and flag the needed PVP flags to increase reputation or alignment, but never leave the settlement. This leader would be the only official member of the settlement, and the rest of the members would function as loyal, sub-contractors.
These loyal, subcontractors would receive all of the benefits of training for free (reimbursed for fees) and their membership would be kept track of out of game (separate CC forums).
In time of war, they could quickly join the settlement, officially, in order to defend it with the appropriate flag. The various hits that their alignment / reputation may bring could be weighed against the usefulness of their using the war flag. Or, they could just remain independent of the settlement and function with the usual PVP flags.
Even if several positions had to be held like the example of the settlement leader, it may be worth while to have several players dedicate a character to just figure head managing the settlement.
The Settlement itself becomes the collective "character" of the managing group. Immune to settlement alignment shifts or individual member reputation hits.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@jiminy and bluddwolf
No I am not playing a chaotic evil character anyone I kill it will because they have at some point in the recent past (last 2 weeks) have done something to eithe me or someone from my settlement.
My attack will not be uncalled for it will merely fall outside the arbitrary times. I anticate a character alignement of around lawful neutral, maybe true neutral.
I as I said am one of Goblinworks demographics they claim they are aiming at. A non griefing roleplayer who likes sandboxes. Unfortunately as far as I can see the systems they are putting in place are deterring people like me and aiming at two different demographics. That of the people who think systems will keep them safe from interference and those that know systems can be easily exploited to cause maximum pain to the people who think the systems keep them safe.
I still have hopes that GW will change things which is why I am still here. Unfortunately I am beginning to lose hope
You still seem stuck on just walking up to your foe and killing them. Off the top of my head, here a re a heap of things you could do-
-Here are some 'lawful' things to do to these miscreants:
Declare war on their settlement.
Put a bounty on them.
Fly the enforcer flag and engage them (and hope they're chaotic).
-Here are some 'neutral' things to do:
Cut off their supply lines and force them out of your hex.
Hire a bandit company to harry them.
-Here are some 'chaotic' things to do:
Confront them and SAD them or slip behind their lines and destroy their gathering site.
-Here are some 'good' things to do:
Fly the champion flag and engage them (and hope they're evil).
-Here are some 'evil' things to do to them:
Hire an assassin to kill them.
Kill them yourself in a wilderness hex.
-Here are some 'chaotic evil' things to do to them:
Attack them while unflagged in a controlled hex and kill them.
Only that last option moves you both chaotic and evil. Yet it is the one action you keep saying you want to do with impunity, and not get cast out of your settlement for doing it. Roleplay is all about shaping your character to something you enjoy playing, using a certain set of rules - in this case, the rules on flags and the rules on alignment. If you want to kill with impunity and not give a toss about flags or where you do the killing, the role you are playing is chaotic evil.
I am fully with you in that I wish there was no alignment, but the facts are that players can't be trusted with this and we would end up with LG Paladins killing newbies as soon as they set foot outside the starter area and keeping their shiny paladin skills, or CE Barbarians becoming a bounty hunter (a contracted lawful action) simply to get more coin. Alignment and the mechanics governing alignment shifts has to be in the game to stop this happening. Modifying your roleplay around this isn't hard.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Jiminy
Just a small note, Enforcer does not allow you to kill Chaotic characters. It only gives you a bonus for killing Criminal characters. I kind of hope it gets some additional perk, because it's kind of weaksauce beside the other alignment flags.
Not compared to the Outlaw Flag, which we end up disregarding our stacked stealth ability in exchange for offering a SAD.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Jiminy
Just a small note, Enforcer does not allow you to kill Chaotic characters. It only gives you a bonus for killing Criminal characters. I kind of hope it gets some additional perk, because it's kind of weaksauce beside the other alignment flags.
Thanks - quite correct.
Can you tell which axis of alignment I'm least interested in, specifically that end, and am following the least :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Avena
If I have to decide between "this is how my character would react" and "This is how I must react if I dont want to suddenly be ejected from my settlement"
That is frustration and breaking my rp
Anyway frankly I can't be bother arguing here anymore. The people on the forum want to play one way they are welcome to it. It won't work but that is not my problem anymore
It's good to hear all sides of an debate (although sometimes doing such ends up seeing no sides?) x-) as eg Bluddwolf's anecdote from EVE of the meta-gaming of corps, sheds light on something that could be construed as a flaw with a certain design.
That said, all the back and forth debating in the world will not determine ahead of time the successful implementation of the specific type of design that GW has for Alignment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not compared to the Outlaw Flag, which we end up disregarding our stacked stealth ability in exchange for offering a SAD.@Jiminy
Just a small note, Enforcer does not allow you to kill Chaotic characters. It only gives you a bonus for killing Criminal characters. I kind of hope it gets some additional perk, because it's kind of weaksauce beside the other alignment flags.
Except that Outlaw also gives you the ability to SAD.
Enforcer's not terrible. The +perception is going to be handy for guards trying to penetrate disguises and the like. But Champion gives you the ability to attack unflagged evil, outlaw gives you sad, and assassin gives you access to all the assassin stuff. Maybe enforcer can give access to some enhanced law enforcement abilities, similar to the way assassin does.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am open to being convinced if someone can come up with a good situation RP wise where the alignment system actually promotes RP. This would have to be something obviously where that event wouldn't happen if the system wasn't there.
Again I repeat this shouldn't be hard if the system is good.
Ok, if you have an alignment that might easily slip due to the way you wish to RP, then you might find a settlement that is very relaxed about the alignments it allows as members or even access to it's facilities? I can't remember the exact details such as setting Reputation vs Alignment unconditional restrictions, but that might allow YOU to RP and eat your cake in the comfort of your friend's settlement? Obviously the price is the possibility of destabilising elements gaining a foothold in said settlement's laissez faire running.
But I think it is INDEED hard to cater to every individual concern. At the early outset the devs are going to create the basic systems/major brush strokes of the game. Which is within budget and on (fast) time. Remember Alignment works in PvE also.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Alignment can add to the richness of RP in many ways including much from the foregoing contentions. For example if my character is confronted with a situation that calls out for action that endangers my neutrality my character could easily find need to consult with fellow players about my conundrum, or worry over letting slip that it is even an issue. Extracting from a druid what problem he is so clearly worried about could give rise to an interesting conversation and seeking a solution that does not compromise his neutrality could provide significant RP opportunity. Taking the problem to Uncle Tony, or conversing with an older character who might have suffered similarly in the past and how he overcame the problem, or consulting a cleric, or even sitting in a tavern uncharacteristically drinking himself into oblivion all present RP opportunities.
But really the limitation is always how inventive or imaginative the player is. I try to stay away from being openly critical of honest questions, but the answers are so obvious I find myself wondering at this one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok so I want to reiterate that I am NOT a fan of Alignment systems in computer games. I've been one of the biggest critics of GW's proposed system for PFO. However it's a part of GW's basic design. They just aren't going to scrap it so the most productive thing I think we can do is try to find a way to make it work as well as possible. Given that, I think we are going to have to learn to accept a few things...
- Any automated system is NOT going to be able to be as nuanced and effective as a human moderated system provided by a skilled GM.
- Automated systems are going to occasionaly result is decisions that we INTUITIVELY feel are WRONG.
- Real griefers can work around or use almost any system that effects a character as a tool for griefing. No automated mechanism intended to combat them will be a pancea and they can some times turn around and exploit those very tools to thier own advantage.
- PFO's representation of Alignments MAY not match our own personal ideas about them. That's ok, and it doesn't mean either is actualy WRONG. Alignments are specific to the Campaign World and the SPECIFIC Cosmology represented within it. What holds true for PFO's Golarion may NOT hold true for Middle Earth or Hyboria or Ancient Greece or Bob's Campaign World....NONE OF THOSE ARE WRONG. However GW is acting as the GM for PFO so however they define the alignments for the PFO campaign is authoritative for PFO...even if it feels a bit off to some of us.
- All of the above WILL impact a players RPing and not always in a positive way. With a computer game, there are always some things that as individuals we need to find a way to RP around.
If we can all accept and agree upon those basic points, then we can move on to trying to suggest ways to refine the system to make it better or more effective. If we can accept those basic permises then we will just endlessly be spinning our wheels arguing in circles.
I MAY NOT agree with folks that having an Alignment system is the best design approach....but we can just put that on "Agree to Disagree". We are going to have one here. So I think what we can do, productively, is just figure out if there are refinements that we can suggest while working within the confines of the current system to help make it better. YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Alignment can add to the richness of RP in many ways including much from the foregoing contentions. For example if my character is confronted with a situation that calls out for action that endangers my neutrality my character could easily find need to consult with fellow players about my conundrum, or worry over letting slip that it is even an issue. Extracting from a druid what problem he is so clearly worried about could give rise to an interesting conversation and seeking a solution that does not compromise his neutrality could provide significant RP opportunity. Taking the problem to Uncle Tony, or conversing with an older character who might have suffered similarly in the past and how he overcame the problem, or consulting a cleric, or even sitting in a tavern uncharacteristically drinking himself into oblivion all present RP opportunities.
But really the limitation is always how inventive or imaginative the player is. I try to stay away from being openly critical of honest questions, but the answers are so obvious I find myself wondering at this one.
I wouldn't say so, Being. Any hard and fast rule is going to provide good RP material for certain character concepts, while totaly not working for others. The advantage that real-life play groups have is that the players can all sit down together and mutualy work together to find a play setting that everyone will enjoy and works for at least one of the character types that an individual enjoys playing.
With computer games, that's not the case....and certain rules and mechanics can be particularly annoying for an individual RP-er and the character types they enjoy playing. However, since there are not always a wide variety of games availble of a particular type...you often just have to learn to RP your way around certain things.
I'll be brutaly honest and say that PFO's Golarion really isn't a setting that I generaly enjoy or works for the character concepts I tend to like to play. If it was a TT campaign, I really wouldn't choose to play in it....and if there were 50 other games of the same type around just using different settings, I'd probably choose to play one of those. However, it IS pretty much the only game of it's type right now....and given that, there are just going to have to be some things that I learn to RP-around.
Now, I certainly could find some character concept that worked really well for the setting.....and if it was going to be a one off play session or something played for a few nights, that's be fine. However for something played over the long term for entertainment, you are going to want to play a character type that you really enjoy.
That doesn't mean the game setting should change just for me....but it does mean there will be certain unfun things that I'm going to have to find a way to RP-around that I don't really enjoy....the same things that might provide very fruitfull RP-opportunities for you, because they work in ways that match your RP opportunities. That's fine, but I think one does need to understand that something which works great for one person really might not work very well for another, when we are talking entertainment value. YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmmm. Would an additional list of player names allowed into a settlement, regardless of rep and/or alignment fix this problem? It could allow for the settlement to make exceptions for non conformist friends, deep cover spies, etc..
I dunno about for membership, but I'd like to be able to set up a whitelist and a blacklist for access permission if the potential issues with those systems are solvable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmmm. Would an additional list of player names allowed into a settlement, regardless of rep and/or alignment fix this problem? It could allow for the settlement to make exceptions for non conformist friends, deep cover spies, etc..
My thoughts are that 2 things which will be helpfull are concepts which already exist within the proposed system and are just a matter of tuning them right....
- The recovery period for slips....
- A "leniency" period in place that gives the player an opportunity to work toward getting back within accepted limits before the automatic boot kicks in.
My general thought is that you want to make infrequent transgressions not overly punishing while still serious enough for the player to take notice and invest work to recover from.....and make chronic transgressions something that keeps the player within a category that matches the games expectations.
For example.... If you are continualy attacking first and asking questions later (outside of contexts where that is considered, acceptable...e.g. "War")....the game engine should be consistantly keeping you in the category it believes matches such behavior (Chaotic).
If you are involved in an "incident" but that incident is not reflective of your regular behavior....the game should allow you to work to return your alignment to what is usual for you before imposing overly significant penalties.
The other side of the coin is that while you want people to feel that working within the constraints reduces thier options, it's not unviable.
For example If Lawfull is constrained from attacking first....PvP combat can't be ALL about who get's the Alpha Strike.... you want the flexability in engagement Chaotics have to provide an advantage to balance out the disadvantages they have in other areas....but it can't be such an overwhelming advantage that it determines 99 percent of combats. YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see anything really wrong with whitelist mechanisms but then I'm not really on-board with their need. If you join a settlement it should have been at least somewhat compatible with your play-style/character.
However GrumpyMel's point about how what works for one may well not work for another is well taken, and I have to conclude that if the rest of us think whitelisting is needed I can certainly live with that. Might even solve for my guild, which wanted to go LG, to let me into the settlement despite my supposed NN alignment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My general thought is that you want to make infrequent transgressions not overly punishing while still serious enough for the player to take notice and invest work to recover from.....and make chronic transgressions something that keeps the player within a category that matches the games expectations.
Kind of like making it possible to play the philanthropist serial killer kind of guy, right? ;)
@Being
Will someone show me something that shows that the Dev's have ever written or said that CC's will have a mechanic allowing the ability or the requirement to choose an alignment restriction? I would LOVE to shut up about that. Yes, the CC can RP a requirement. Why should a LG group shun a NN feller? Great RP opportunities. The younger Zealous goodies hostile and not trusting that NN suspicious dude, and all that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bringslite - I can't remember where I saw that. But it does appear to make sense that settlements have some hard restrictions on Alignment as well as player set Reputation Laws/Rules. This ties into the availability of Skill-Training for different Alignments which (in part) is monitoring the player's PvP antics. Hence exceptions eg whitelists must be limited if at all, I think I'm right in guessing?
I think a CC has to be sponsored by a settlement and so it's a case of "inheritance" of Alignment restriction on what CC the settlement can sponsor according to Alignment steps permissable?
*snaps fingers* "Nihimon." ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I'm not Nihimon, but....
The Put It In Writing Blog, subheading All Politics Are Local Politics:
The settlement's alignment—characters must be within one alignment step* to join or remain a member of the settlement.
[...]
*An alignment step refers to the distance between any two alignments on the standard nine-space alignment grid.
So, it's been stated for settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think a CC has to be sponsored by a settlement and so it's a case of "inheritance" of Alignment restriction on what CC the settlement can sponsor according to Alignment steps permissable?
*snaps fingers* "Nihimon." ;)
I'm trying to get clarification.
Clarification Please: Are there system-enforced Alignment restrictions for Chartered Companies?
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Goblin Squad Member
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...@Being
Will someone show me something that shows that the Dev's have ever written or said that CC's will have a mechanic allowing the ability or the requirement to choose an alignment restriction? I would LOVE to shut up about that. Yes, the CC can RP a requirement. Why should a LG group shun a NN feller? Great RP opportunities. The younger Zealous goodies hostile and not trusting that NN suspicious dude, and all that.
NN folk probably perceive LG folk as oppressive and extremist. I imagine LG types would be prone to say 'Either you are with us or you are against us.', which would really raise the rebel in an NN such that they would rather risk a dip into chaos than toady up to them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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NN folk probably perceive LG folk as oppressive and extremist. I imagine LG types would be prone to say 'Either you are with us or you are against us.', which would really raise the rebel in an NN such that they would rather risk a dip into chaos than toady up to them....@Being
Will someone show me something that shows that the Dev's have ever written or said that CC's will have a mechanic allowing the ability or the requirement to choose an alignment restriction? I would LOVE to shut up about that. Yes, the CC can RP a requirement. Why should a LG group shun a NN feller? Great RP opportunities. The younger Zealous goodies hostile and not trusting that NN suspicious dude, and all that.
Young Knight "That NN guy seems untrustworthy. I don't like his look.
Knight Commander "Sir Stickuprump, have faith in Iomede(sp?). Trust this: That fellow will get the task done, in ways that I will not want to know but not through evil. Not when he is working for me. I have known him since we were boys in the Homeland. Do not scowl at him so, it is beneath your station to judge others. Besides, he crafted that sword you will wield in the battle coming. He might cause it to turn on YOU."
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Goblin Squad Member
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...
Young Knight "That NN guy seems untrustworthy. I don't like his look.Knight Commander "Sir Stickuprump, have faith in Iomede(sp?). Trust this: That fellow will get the task done, in ways that I will not want to know but not through evil. Not when he is working for me. I have known him since we were boys in the Homeland. Do not scowl at him so, it is beneath your station to judge others. Besides, he crafted that sword you will wield in the battle coming. He might cause it to turn on YOU."
Your scenario believable, Bringslite. However from all I have seen the pathfinder rules do not consider the extremists compatible with NN (or as I would prefer TN).
If I may recommend, and lawful aligned though it may seem, it is probably more important for the game to remain coherent and whole than to start eroding their authority based on outlier cases. I think there may be too much at stake to start making tatters of what the whole game is to be modeling.
Besides, I need a lawful good act to make up for that chaotic evil implication I just delivered to Zen out of my own pettiness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It really all boils down to your take on LG vs. any other LG player's take on it. That really will decide how you will interact with each other.
To me, it is the epitome of LG to be kind, just, tolerant, generous, optimistically wise. gentle, etc...
LG is not The White Cloaks from Robert Jordan's The Wheel series.
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@Avena
If I have to decide between "this is how my character would react" and "This is how I must react if I dont want to suddenly be ejected from my settlement"
That is frustration and breaking my rp
I mentioned above where you might find a middleway option that caters to your preferences but allows you enough slack to pop in and out of your settlement, within reason. But I still have found it difficult to understand the concept of RP in first sentence.
Ryan Dancey I think pin-points something worth including in your concept of what RP is in a mmorpg, quote-unquote (from dmfiat.com podcast): The RP based on ACTION and the RP based on BEHAVIOR. So it seems there will be space for the latter, but you must not ignore the importance of the former and that is where the alignment as game system for RP based on ACTION fits in.
Feel free to discuss.
@Avena you will need to rephrase that as I have no idea what you are trying to say.
However to clarify the concept of rp as I use it
My character is a living breathing persona. In game he/she reacts in certain ways to certain stimulus. If he reacts in a particular way to a particular stimulus he should always react in a similar way
example
if you punch him he will punch you back if he is able to. He will try and punch you back immediately however if you were to punch him while he can't do anything for instance he is tied up he will remember and he will punch you back the next time he sees you.
This is a consistent reaction from the persona of the character
If I have to modify this behaviour because while I can punch you back immediately and it has no penalty but I can't punch you back tomorrow because the flag has worn off then that is having to subvert the true reaction my character should have or get penalised for a legitimate rp action.
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You're arguing for a consistant reaction to two different stimuli. One is a direct response to a danger to yourself or others. The other is the exercise of vengeance. That you cannot distinguish between two events as part of a single incident, and two events as elements of two separate instances is, frankly, a little concerning. If you really believe that an offense in the past should give you free rein to attack them ad infinitum, then you might as well remove all inhibitors to violence. If your character is LG and can't say "I want to attack them for their past transgressions, but the law/my code/my cooled temper prevents it." then he is ruled by his passions and willing to disregard the laws of morality that are as much a coherent force in the world of Golarion as gravity. That is not LG.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Zen: So a human can understand BEHAVIOUR particularly if it is explained by another and even then that's not always reliable... (for another day). A computer can only calculate the inputs and outputs of player ACTIONS and track in this case the alignment system based on those inputs by players and make tests against it eg timers and resetting to a new state.
The timer is important Zen because it allows a case by case check by the computer on your actions over time and over numerous encounters with other players. Simple modelling (statistically significant if you like as well as qualitatively important). Remember a model is useful even if it's limited. ;)
What you are saying above is 100% Behavior. The computer can't make checks on what is going on in your brain! Funny to state it like that. But your inputs via mouse and keyboard clicks, it can. Again simple?
Now we come to you: You don't like that because it's too limiting for you. But it's very useful over 000's of players as all this can be calculated very quickly and tracked and stored.
Personally I'm happy to compromise to be able to play around with this system on such a scale. But because of the above limitation, your IC behavior (ie in your brain) "should" take INFORMATION from the game and interprete it in a complementary manner. Otherwise as you point out you will hit a contradiction. But that is up to each individual to decide on how to deal with. ;)
@Dario I was responding to Avena asking for clarification not reopening this issue which I have no intention to continue discussing.