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In the interest of discussion diversity, what is the general opinion on the improved Will save? We've had one poster mention that they'd rather it be a situational scaling bonus, and one say that rogues should have some kind of bonus to all saves. Other thoughts?
maybe this is my impression of the rogue, but i see them as generally being susceptible to lapses in willpower. if anything i think they tend to be cut from pretty sturdy stock, and would in granting them a second good save settle for Fortitude.
...
per the Cunning Strike vs Full BAB while Sneak Attacking debate, i tend to prefer the former, so as to exclusivise it unto the rogue (and not other sneak-attacking archetypes). further, if i were to incorporate this mechanic into my game, i would create a clause which allowed the bonuses granted to synergize with various combat maneuvers. including but not limited to Dirty Trick, Steal, Reposition... really all of them. this then begs the question: between the rogue and the monk, who ought to be better at which maneuvers? if your answer is liberal, ought the rogue gain Maneuver Training as well?...
but ultimately i think the rogue could be fine without either full or conditionally-full BAB. my problem with Sneak Attack is that outside of flanking (if even that), that it is a main class feature that doesn't have enough triggering opportunities.
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this is interesting. your math seems to check out. my only critique is that you have removed the d6's.
i had an idea awhile back where a bonus +X damage occured whenever the rogue scores a critical hit. (X = rogue level). yes that damage multiplies so you're looking at 2X or 3X essentially. it always struck me as funny that the sneak attack dice didn't multiply on a critical hit. maybe it just flat out ought to?
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i prefer dice over joysticks.
that said, your bonus damage system kyrt-ryder is admittedly elegant. if for nothing else than it's sheer combination of simplicity and mathematical precision.
to combine your proposal with my 'broadening' SA proposal, we get something like:
:
A Rogue is well trained to target the vitals/weak points of his opponent. Against any opponent vulnerable to precision damage, a Rogue deals 1 additional point of damage per 2 Rogue levels (minimum 1) per hit. This value is doubled when the opponent is flanked or denied his dexterity bonus to AC.
At 3rd level, a rogue may choose one of the following sets of conditions to exploit. Against an opponent who does not normally qualify for sneak attack but is under the effects of one of the selected conditions, she may apply her doubled value of bonus precision damage with a successful attack. At 7th level and every four levels thereafter, the rogue may select another set of conditions.
*Compromised - foe is Prone or standing up from Prone.
*Fear - foe is Frightened, Panicked, or Shaken.
*Lethargy - foe is Fatigued or Exhausted.
*Obscuration - foe has Concealment.
*Pain - foe is under a Bleed or Pain effect.
*Queasiness - foe is Sickened or Nauseated.
*Restraint - foe is Entangled or Grappled.
*Sensory Deprivation - foe is Dazzled, Deafened, or under temporary loss of a primary sense (Blindsense, etc).
*Shock - foe is Dazed, Disabled, or Staggered.
One thing that would help is to allow multiple special effects from the same sneak attack. RAW, only one applies regardless of how many you can do. As none are particularly exciting on their own, you need to apply more than one for the rogue to compete. Admittedly, rainzax's ones above are better than those in the Talents.
Are we agreed that the rogue is fairly competitive at low levels? This is before magic trumps skills and before the disparity in BAB and saves gets large enough to matter.
Kyrt, does this damage change come with any bonus to hit or not? It better not to be honest as you have significantly upped the damage (+40 from a flank at 20, vs +35 and the former allows crits which is a big deal- for a keen rapier that is effectively another 12).
Also your table has an error. It skipped levels 13 and 17 so you didn't get to the normal rogue sneak total of 10d6 (avr 35). I also don't see how the text jibes with it (though that could simply be a function of the missing levels).
I've thought about doing static damage boosts from Sneak Attack before. Allowing them to multiply on a critical hit is a big deal, though. I wonder what would happen if we combined that with Cunning Strike . . .
Giving a rogue a reason to crit would be nice - as written, rogues don't really care very much if they crit, since they usually get pretty piddly damage out of it with their low Strength and d6 damage weapons. Ironically, they also usually fight with high-crit-threat weapons like rapiers.
Rogue 17
Init +15; Senses Perception -1
==DEFENSE==
AC 22, touch 22, flat-footed 10 (+11 dex)
hp 76 (17d8+68)
SR 0
Fort +9, Ref +21, Will +4
==OFFENSE==
Spd 30 ft/x4
Melee Agile Rapier +5 +29/+24/+19 (1d6+31) 15-20/x2; apply Dex or Str to damage
Sneak Attack +34/+29/+24 (1d6+48) 15-20/x2 (avg 51.5)
Special Attacks Cunning Strike +5, Sneak Attack +17/+34
==STATISTICS==
Str 19, Dex 33, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 15
BAB +12, CMB +16, CMD +38
Feats Armor Proficiency (LIGHT) (PFCR 118), Critical Focus (PFCR 120), Dodge (PFCR 122), Improved Critical (Rapier) (PFCR 127), Improved Initiative (PFCR 127), Mobility (PFCR 130-131), Power Attack (PFCR 131), Weapon Finesse (PFCR 136), Weapon Focus (Rapier) (PFCR 136-137)
Skills
MC rogue talents (bleeding attack, crippling strike, fast stealth, finesse rogue, improved evasion, ledge walker, opportunist, skill mastery [Acrobatics, Climb, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Stealth], stand up)(PFCR 68-70)
Languages Common
==Magic==
Eq'd Magic Belt of Physical Perfection +6
damage = chance to hit *(average damage) +(average damage* critical chance * confirmation chance * (critical multiplier-1))
vs AC 40
(.75*51.5)+(51.5*.3*.95)=53.3
(.5*51.5)+(51.5*.3*.7)=36.6
(.25*.51.5)+(51.5*.3*.45)=19.8
DPR 109.7
Rogue 17
Init +8; Senses Perception -1
==DEFENSE==
AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 10 (+4 dex)
hp 76 (17d8+68)
SR 0
Fort +9, Ref +14, Will +4
==OFFENSE==
Spd 30 ft/x4
Melee Falchion +5 +29/+20/+15 (2d4+50) 18-20/x2 CM +6; [PA]; [FF]
Sneak Attack Falchion +5 +34/+25/+20 (2d4+67) avg 72
Special Attacks Cunning Strike +5, Sneak Attack +17/+34
==STATISTICS==
Str 33, Dex 19, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 15
BAB +12, CMB +23, CMD +38
Feats Armor Proficiency (LIGHT) (PFCR 118), Critical Focus (PFCR 120), Dodge (PFCR 122), Furious Focus (PFAPG 161), Improved Critical (Rapier) (PFCR 127), Improved Initiative (PFCR 127), Martial Weapon Proficiency (Falchion) (PFCR 130), Mobility (PFCR 130-131), Power Attack (PFCR 131), Weapon Finesse (PFCR 136), Weapon Focus (Falchion) (PFCR 136-137)
Skills
MC rogue talents (bleeding attack, crippling strike, fast stealth, finesse rogue, improved evasion, ledge walker, opportunist, skill mastery [Acrobatics, Climb, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Stealth], stand up)(PFCR 68-70)
Languages Common
==Magic==
Eq'd Magic Belt of Physical Perfection +6
(.75*72)+(72*.3*.95)=74.52
(.3*72)+(72*.3*.7)=36.72
(.05*.72)+(72*.3*.25)=9
DPR 120.24
Rogue 17
Init +11; Senses Perception -1
==DEFENSE==
AC 22, touch 22, flat-footed 10 (+11 dex)
hp 76 (17d8+68)
SR 0
Fort +9, Ref +21, Will +4
==OFFENSE==
Spd 30 ft/x4
Sneak Attack Agile Rapier +5 +32/+27/+22 (1d6+50) avg 53.5 15-20/x2 CM +6; [TW-P-Lt]; apply Dex or Str to damage
Melee Agile Keen Melee Dagger +5 +32/+27/+22 (1d4+50) avg 52.5 17-20/x2 CM +6; [TW-S]; apply Dex or Str to damage
Special Attacks Cunning Strike +5, Sneak Attack +17/+34
==STATISTICS==
Str 19, Dex 33, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 15
BAB +12, CMB +16, CMD +38
Feats Armor Proficiency (LIGHT) (PFCR 118), Critical Focus (PFCR 120), Dodge (PFCR 122), Double Slice (PFCR 122), Furious Focus (PFAPG 161), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (PFCR 126), Improved Critical (Rapier) (PFCR 127), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (PFCR 128), Two-Weapon Fighting (PFCR 136), Weapon Finesse (PFCR 136), Weapon Focus (Rapier, Dagger, Melee) (PFCR 136-137)
Skills
MC Rogue Talent same (PFCR 68-70)
Languages Common
==Magic==
Eq'd Magic Belt of Physical Perfection +6
(.65*53.5)+(53.5*.3*.95)=50
(.65*52.5)+(52.5*.2*.95)=44.1
(.4*53.5)+(53.5*.3*.8)=34.24
(.4*52.5)+(52.5*.2*.8)=33.6
(.15*53.5)+(53.5*.3*.55)=16.85
(.15*52.5)+(52.5*.2*.55)=13.65
DPR 192.44
So, how does the static damage per level interact with rogue talents that operate off of "per dice of sneak attack" mechanics? Offensive Defense, Bleeding Attack, etc? What if we made the bonus +2 at odd levels? Same effect, but easier to line up with those rogue talents. Also, there really needs to be a few feats to make fighting with a rapier competitive with fighting with two weapons. I know the TWF fighter invests more feats in their style, but the one-hander doesn't even have that option, which makes me sad.
I don't really have a problem with the rogue's squishiness or saves, but I've always had a problem with their damage output being too low.
I've often wondered if something like the following (added to the class as part of "sneak attack") would solve a lot of the problems I've had with the dpr of the rogue:
Feinted Positioning (Ex) Your sneak attack can be used without the positional requirement until the beginning of your next turn.
Combine that with a "Guile" (or whatever you want to call it) pool and adequate point cost (or a limit of uses/day), as well as toss in SteelDraco's cunning strike:
Cunning Strike (Ex) At 1st level, when the rogue is making a sneak attack, he gains a +1 bonus on the attack roll. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every four additional levels, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level.
... it wouldn't give them a high sustained dps, but would certainly grant them some "burst capability". I'll do some math on it when I get time later.
As far as giving the rogue a reason to want a critical strike, something like this could work (I'm brainstorming and this is off the cuff so don't be too harsh=P):
On a successful critical strike, a rogue may select one of the following effects, which lasts until the beginning of his next turn (unless specified otherwise):
1. Add your cunning strike modifier to your Armor Class as a circumstance bonus.
2. Add your cunning strike modifier to your Will save as a morale bonus.
3. Add your cunning strike modifier to your next damage roll as a morale bonus.
4. The rogue may choose to immediately take a 5' step, even if he has already done so this round.
Edit: Edited to change the movement effect & attack modifier (3&4).
Rogue fix:
Remover EVERY instance of every other class ability, spell, etc that can find magical traps. Problem solved.
Rogue fix:
Remover EVERY instance of every other class ability, spell, etc that can find magical traps. Problem solved.
I'll be sure to give all of your threads/posts the same thoughtful consideration and courtesy you've shown drbuzzard with the contribution of your post to his thread. I'm sure others will be delighted to be equally courteous, as well.
I'll be sure to give all of your threads/posts the same thoughtful consideration and courtesy you've shown drbuzzard with the contribution of your post to his thread. I'm sure others will be delighted to be equally courteous, as well.Rogue fix:
Remover EVERY instance of every other class ability, spell, etc that can find magical traps. Problem solved.
They are a support class, yes bards can do support better, but the rogue class has the most skills per level than another class. Add in another factor that makes them useful and you have a playable useful class. This is NOT a DPS class, so I don't know why it was even brought up. This class is the only non-combat oriented class in the game, but people keep trying to make it one, and this just baffles me. To me, it is almost like trying to make a wizard into a melee combatant.
So in the end, give them something that only they can do, and their unique combination of other traits, D8 hit-die, sneak attack, interm. base attack, rogue skills, and 8 skill-points/level will back it up. In the end, these writers for Paizo sold their sacred cow for rogues, they gave away the one good useful ability they had to other classes. This was about to-kin with making Moral Ability Score bonuses via-items. Which would about kill the barbarian class.
I'll be sure to file your following suggestions in the appropriate circular bin with the rest of what you have offered.
Hmmm, nice to see we're being civil about this.
To sum up, I've seen you say this before and responded to it,
No you didn't. Your only response to what I said was that you didn't understand why I want rogues to miss all the time:
People seem to have issues with the concept of full BAB for some reason. It's a simple fix which mathematically works.
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Look, you seem to like gimmicks, but unless you stack up one heck of a pile of gimmicks you are not going to transform that 3/4 BAB rogue into a legitimate combat threat at high levels.
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Here's a question for people who don't like full BAB rogues, is there some constituency that favor rogues missing most of the time?
But if you go back to my first post regarding your proposed houserules, you'll see that I also offered solutions to increase rogue's chances of hitting:
Can't we have flavor AND balance?
1. Create a few rogue talents that make them more stealthy in combat (i.e., a greater talent to feint as a swift action) - more feints means less DEX for the targets, meaning rogues hit more often.
2. or simply to use some of their skills in combat (i.e. a talent to let them apply 1/4 of their sense motive ranks to one attack roll each round, ) - a direct attack bonus to let rogues hit more often.
3. or rogue talents to let them deny DEX mods to opponents more often (e.g. a talent that lets them try a bluff check vs. Sense Motive or CMD to treat their next attack against that target as if the target is flanked, even if it is not). - denying DEX bonus AND gaining +2 to hit without having to actually move into flanking position, meaning rogues hit more often.
4. If you really want automatic melee options that they get just by reaching certain levels, then give them something like the fighter's weapon training but with roguish application - a direct bonus gained from leveling without requiring feats or talents, to make rogues hit more often.
So, no, there is no "constituency that favor rogues missing most of the time?"
But since you're just filing this in the "circular bin", you probably didn't read any of this.
I wonder why you posted here in the first place? Were you actually requesting comments like you seemed to be, or were you merely bragging about your proposed solution and only interested in praise for it?
1. Create a few rogue talents that make them more stealthy in combat (i.e., a greater talent to feint as a swift action) - more feints means less DEX for the targets, meaning rogues hit more often.
2. or simply to use some of their skills in combat (i.e. a talent to let them apply 1/4 of their sense motive ranks to one attack roll each round, ) - a direct attack bonus to let rogues hit more often.
3. or rogue talents to let them deny DEX mods to opponents more often (e.g. a talent that lets them try a bluff check vs. Sense Motive or CMD to treat their next attack against that target as if the target is flanked, even if it is not). - denying DEX bonus AND gaining +2 to hit without having to actually move into flanking position, meaning rogues hit more often.
4. If you really want automatic melee options that they get just by reaching certain levels, then give them something like the fighter's weapon training but with roguish application - a direct bonus gained from leveling without requiring feats or talents, to make rogues hit more often.
1-3 don't sound too bad.
Ah to help the rogue you use my patented rogue fix ™. The rogue has a number of rather cool & unique talents, such as Resiliency, Defensive Roll , etc. Unfortunately these are under the RAW useable but once a day. I’d simply change this to be like a Wizard’s (etc) ability, which is 3 times a day plus a Dex or Int modifier.
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Giving a rogue a reason to crit would be nice - as written, rogues don't really care very much if they crit, since they usually get pretty piddly damage out of it with their low Strength and d6 damage weapons. Ironically, they also usually fight with high-crit-threat weapons like rapiers.
somebody remind me why Sneak Attack dice don't multiply on a critical hit?
As a rule, numerical additions multiply on a crit and bonus dice do not. Exceptions are inconsistent design.
One of the things ive done is grant them a new 8th level ability, where they may study a target for number of rounds equal to one quarter the target's hitdice, to allow them to hit against the targets touch ac for the remainder of the round in which they successfully attack said target. Sneak attack damage would apply, if able. I called it chink in the armor.
As a rule, numerical additions multiply on a crit and bonus dice do not. Exceptions are inconsistent design.
This is indeed the rule, but one wonders why it need be like that. Would it be so broken to change it? Let's look at where bonus dice come from:
* Sneak attack
* Elementally enhanced weapons (flaming, etc)
* Vital Strike, etc
Anything else? None of the above are exactly overpowered, and Vital Strike is positively derided as a trap. So I don't see any good reason why dice shouldn't be multiplied. Except that the 20th level TWF rogue with 2 flaming handaxes of speed might have to roll up to 288d6 per round, if he gets stupidly lucky.
And I'd let other precision damage like a Duelist's Precise Strike multiply too, unless someone can give me a good reason why not.