Pit Four


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Yeah its kind of something we need a ruling on for future use either way.


Reading through the linked thread as well as the grappled/pinned conditions again, it appears that at some point the 'flat-footed' text was errata'd to 'denied dex bonus'. I was getting the former from this site, which seems out of date (I hadn't been there before either, it just came up first on google). So, we know the official text is 'denied dex bonus', but I'm not positive about the intention. Looking into some of the points raised in the thread Rolg posted, it does seem rather silly to have one's pinned dex bonus be lower than that of someone grappled. I think I'll rescind my earlier ruling, however, and say that pinned does deny you all dexterity bonus (it makes a certain amount of sense, really). This happens after and on top of the -4 penalty from being grappled (which you also are, to my knowledge), so if you had only 12 dex to begin with, you'll end up with a penalty. This does make escape-artisting more difficult once pinned, but I believe that also makes sense, being pinned means you're rather past the point of wiggling away easily.


The penalties from Grappled and Pinned are not meant to stack. It actually specifically states that.

It just seems odd to me to make a skill based of Dexterity and then make these situations where your no longer getting your Dexterity bonus to it. Does that mean you should lose your Dexterity bonus to Escape Artist when tied up as well?


ROLG THE RED

Yah, this whole conversation has enlightened me as to how truly wonky the grappling rules are. I have only used them rarely in Pathfinder before now, and they seemed like such an improvement from 3.5. But I'm not so sure anymore.
.
That last line from the Pinned entry does say they're not supposed to stack. The problem with that is, like Arbiter (and that thread) pointed out, if a character had a Dex of 12, they're actually better off when they're Pinned than when they're Grappled. I would tend to think that the Pinn-ee should take whichever dex penalty is more disadvantageous to the Pinn-ee.

The Hirtz Factor wrote:
It just seems odd to me to make a skill based of Dexterity and then make these situations where your no longer getting your Dexterity bonus to it. Does that mean you should lose your Dexterity bonus to Escape Artist when tied up as well?

Well, there are a couple of things at play here. First is the role of Escape Artist. The suggested question in what you wrote is "why make this skill if it's going to be invalidated like this situation?". But the skill is still really, really useful on its own. Escaping from bindings, squeezing, all useful stuff. Also – and this is very important – stuff that isn't' dependent on BAB. Losing your dex mod to Escape Artist when pinned is painful, but keep in mind you still retain your full ranks and the class rank bonus plus any other mods you're carrying (such as focus or equipment bonuses or whatever). So it's still a better solution for rogues (and even Gnasher) than trying a CMB – unless you have a decent Strength score. But if you had that, this whole situation would be different.

I realize this whole solution puts Gnasher squarely in the crosshairs, but that's only because he has such a freaking high Dex investment… and has made that investment go so far. Offense, Defense, Damage… he just gets a lot of use out of his dex. For most other characters, however, this is a minor inconvenience (at worst). Take Rolg for example. The dex thing really wouldn't bother him all that much.

I bring this up because it as obviously the intent of the designer to make grappling painful to the target in general, but also to make sure grappling was a strength-character's game.

All that being said, is that how we're moving forward, Arbiter? Or do we need to continue discussing?


Even if you have a 12 in Dex, your still worse off in the pinned condition. The -4 Dex from being Grappled knocks you down 2 AC. The loss of your Dex bonus on top of the -4 AC from pinned is by far worse. Especially when you take the following, found under Combat Manuever Defense in the PRD, into consideration:

PRD wrote:
Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD.


ROLG THE RED

I'm talking about for Escape Artist attempts. If a pinned "no dex bonus" only applies to AC, then he can use his full dex bonus to EScape Artist, where-as the same character is grappled, he's taking that -4 Dex penalty... making it actually easier to escape a pin than it is to escape a grapple... which is dumb.


Taking the -4 and then negating your bonus effectively gives you only the more severe penalty, not both. If you have 5-15 dex, you'll lose 2 points from your AC. If you have higher than that, you lose more while pinned, but wont end up with a negative dex modifier. The penalties would apply in the same way to your CMD, yes, which makes a certain amount of sense. It doesn't matter all that much how nimble an opponent is if you have their arms and legs locked— at that point you're down to mostly brute strength.


ROLG THE RED

So under this ruling, the match's outcome stands?


End of Challenge Bout
VICTORY TO ROLG


Bout Three
JOHNNY VS. VATALE


Male Elf

Initiative
Vatale strides into the arena, longbow in one hand and Gyllir's reigns in the other.
Full description in the alias

Arbiter:

Initiative:1d20 + 9 ⇒ (17) + 9 = 26

Initiative: 26


Male Human Sorcerer 3

Arbiter:

Initiative: 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (2) + 8 = 10

Johnny steps out into the arena wearing only robes, his tattoos writhing across his dark skin.

Initiative: 10


Male Elf

Surprise Round

Arbiter:

Ride Check:1d20 + 11 ⇒ (15) + 11 = 26 for DC 20 free action mount.
Ride Check:1d20 + 11 ⇒ (6) + 11 = 17 for DC 5 guide with knees.
Swift action Ranger's Focus on Johnny.
Gyllir moves to HI1819 and I make a standard action attack on the way with a thistle arrow.
Attack:1d20 + 11 ⇒ (7) + 11 = 18
Damage:1d8 + 5 ⇒ (7) + 5 = 12 plus bleed damage for 1d6 ⇒ 6 rounds.

Vatale leaps into the saddle and sits there for a moment studying Johnny. He then kicks Gyllir into motion and they move East. Vatale draws an arrow and takes aim, firing at Johnny before moving behind a pillar.
Attack: 18 Damage: 12 plus 1 point bleed for 6 rounds. Gyllir and Vatale end up in HI1819.
Your turn.


Male Human Sorcerer 3

Arbiter:

Magic Missile: 4d4 + 8 ⇒ (4, 4, 3, 3) + 8 = 22

Johnny staggers back from the blow, then darts behind a pillar as his wound continues to ooze. He lets out a primal roar and fires a barrage of magical bolts.

Move to B9, cast spell for 22 damage on Vatale. Down by 13 hp.


Male Elf

Round 1

Arbiter:

I'm pretty sure he has line of sight on me from A11 while I'm in HI1819.
Down to 0 HP. I'm disabled and have the staggered condition.
Ride Check:1d20 + 11 ⇒ (3) + 11 = 14 for DC 5 guide with knees.
As a swift action I issue a challenge to Johnny.
I move Gyllir to HI1718 by way of CD1718. That is the halfway point and where I make my attack from.
I take a standard action to attack Johnny, however, in my disabled condition I take one point of damage and get put to -1. I use Resolve as an immediate action and stabalize. I am still staggered.
This attack is made with a slow burn arrow.
Attack:1d20 + 12 ⇒ (7) + 12 = 19
Damage:1d8 + 5 ⇒ (6) + 5 = 11 plus 1d6 ⇒ 4 fire damage in one round.

Vatale cries out in pain but the sound of Gyllir's hooves starts back up immediately. Riding north Vatale fires a second arrow at Johnny. He wheels Gyllir around and heads back south.
Attack: 19, Damage: 11 plus 4 fire damage next round as the arrow tip detonates. I end up in HI1718


Male Human Sorcerer 3

Johnny takes another arrow to the chest, and continues to bleed. Barely hanging on to consciousness, he hurls another spell at his opponent. Then he steps back behind the pillar for better cover, but collapses as the arrowtip explodes in his chest.

Arbiter:

Down to 1/26 hp after bleed. Will be at -3 on Vatale's round

Magic Missile: 4d4 + 8 ⇒ (3, 4, 3, 2) + 8 = 20

Another spell for 20 damage on Vatale. 5-foot step to B8. Knocked unconscious on Vatale's next round. If Vatale is downed by the spell, does Gyllir finish Johnny off, or what?


Male Elf

20 damage kills Vatale. I think this is a win for you, I doubt I'm allowed to continue fighting through Gyllir. At this point it comes down to the ruling by the Arbiter.
Vatale takes the hit straight in the chest and falls of Gyllir, dead as a stone.
Well no matter what the ruling good fight, 42 points of ranged damage without attack rolls in 1 1/2 rounds is pretty damn impressive.


Male Elf

Quick question. How did you cast a spell and move 10 feet in the surprise round? If it's a class thing just ignore it but you should have started combat on A11 and B9 is 10 feet away.


Male Human Sorcerer 3
Vatale wrote:
Quick question. How did you cast a spell and move 10 feet in the surprise round? If it's a class thing just ignore it but you should have started combat on A11 and B9 is 10 feet away.

As I understand the rules, whoever wins initiative gets a surprise round, and the other can go straight into a normal round on his turn. Although I think it's a moot point in this case, since I wasn't able to successfully use cover anyway.


Male Elf

I interpreted it differently, but that makes sense.


Assuming Gyllir is war-trained and knows the attack trick, and Johnny has been actively attempting to harm his master, I believe it would make sense for the horse to go tramplin' on Johnny. If he didn't it would be a "who's best at not bleeding out" fight.


Male Elf

Gyllir is war-trained but Vatale is just dead, he's not bleeding out. This fight goes to Johnny. Although this is interesting information for future fights.


End of Bout Three
VICTORY TO JOHNNY


Bout Four
GNASHER VS. JOHNNY


Male Human Sorcerer 3

Initiative: 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (4) + 8 = 12


Sorry for the delay. Been fighting a headcold all weekend.

Initiative

Once more the frail looking goblin would enter the arena. His win/lose ratio rather weighted to one side, he would enter the arena in hopes of evening the odds. As usual he entered with a vial in one hand.

Arbiter:
Potion of Vanish (CL 2) in hand.

Initiative 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (2) + 6 = 8

Initiative - 8

You win initiative.


Male Human Sorcerer 3

Since H comes before J, you start at the top.

Johnny spots his tiny opponent entering the arena, and before the goblin has a chance to react, he hurls a barrage of magical missiles. Then he quickly ducks behind the pillar to his left.

Arbiter:
Magic Missile: 4d4 + 8 ⇒ (1, 4, 4, 4) + 8 = 21

Spell for 21 damage, followed by 5-foot step to K9. Your move.


Surprise Round

The little goblin would shout as the missiles dug into his skin. With no time to think, the little fellow would quickly consume the contents of the vial he had in his hand and vanish from sight...

Arbiter:
Move Action to drink Potion of Vanish (CL 2).
Non-Action to 5-foot step to B11.

Spellcraft 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (2) + 8 = 10

Hit Points 9/30
AC 17
Vanish 2 Rounds

How many missiles struck him? And your go.


Male Human Sorcerer 3

Four missiles last time.

Johnny sees the little goblin disappear, swears to himself, then casts a spell in preparation.

Spellcraft, DC 16:

Mage Armor

Cast spell, hold position.


Round 1

Actions hidden from view.

Arbiter:
Standard Action to drink Mutagen +4 Dex/+2 Natural Armor, -2 Wis.
Move Action to retrieve Potion of Mage Armor.
Non-Action to 5-foot step to B12.

Hit Points 9/30
AC 21
Vanish 1 Rounds


Male Human Sorcerer 3

Still seeing no sign of his opponent, Johnny casts another spell and stays mobile.

Spellcraft, DC 16:

Shield

Cast spell, move to H4.


Round 2

The little goblin would appear in B12 with clawed hands and sharp teeth. Within the grip of one clawed hand was an empty vial, while a full container resided within the grip of his other hand. With a quick step he would move further behind the pillar to B13 and drop the empty container from his hand so that he could use it to extract yet another container from his clothing before downing the contents of both vials. Once done, he would drop both of the now empty containers to the ground to join the third he had dropped just seconds before.

Arbiter:
Non-Action to 5-foot step to B12.
Free Action to drop vial.
Standard Action to take extract of Shield.
Move Action to take Potion of Mage Armor.

Hit Points 9/30
AC 29
Mage Armor 600/600
Mutagen 199/200
Shield 20/20
Vanish 0 Rounds


Male Human Sorcerer 3

Johnny steps cautiously out from behind his cover, but still sees nothing. He tenses, waiting for an opening.

Arbiter:

Ready action to cast Magic Missile if the goblin becomes visible.

Still no line of sight to the goblin. Move to H6.


Round 3

The little goblin would start to move west around the pillars, but as his opponent came clearly into sight, he would instead spend the rest of his movement to move up close and personal with his rival.

Starts by moving west to B8 and then changes direction to move to G7.

As the little creature makes his way up to his opponent, he would start to shake uncontrollably.

Arbiter:
Move Action to move to the West.
Move Action to move up to his opponent.
Free Action to start Raging for +4 to Dex.

Hit Points 9/30
AC 31 Touch AC 21 Flat-Footed AC 21
Mage Armor 599/600
Mutagen 198/200
Shield 19/20


Male Human Sorcerer 3

As soon as the goblin came out from around the pillar, Johnny spotted him and let loose with his next barrage of missiles.

Arbiter:

Magic Missile: 4d4 + 8 ⇒ (2, 4, 2, 3) + 8 = 19

Readied magic missile for 19 damage, unless you have a shield spell up.


The missiles would seem to strike upon an invisible barrier.

It's part of his regular routine.


Male Human Sorcerer 3

So my readied action puts me before you in initiative, followed by your double move, so it's my turn again, right?


Yes, it is your turn now.


Male Human Sorcerer 3

Seeing his spell dissipate with no effect, Johnny backs up and hurls a cone of fire at the goblin.

Arbiter:
Burning Hands: 4d4 + 4 ⇒ (3, 4, 3, 1) + 4 = 15

5-foot step to I5. Burning Hands for 15 damage. Reflex DC 13 for half.


Round 4

Deftly, the little goblin would duck below the majority of the flames before closing the distance between him and his enemy to lash out with tooth and claw.

Bite Attack - 30
Bite Damage - 13

Claw 1 Attack - 28
Claw 1 Damage - 14

Claw 2 Attack - 26
Claw 2 Damage - 11

Arbiter:
Reflex Save 1d20 + 12 ⇒ (4) + 12 = 16

Non-Action to 5-foot step to H6.
Non-Action to maintain Rage.
Full Round Action to Full-Attack.

Bite Attack 1d20 + 14 ⇒ (16) + 14 = 30
Bite Damage 1d6 + 10 ⇒ (3) + 10 = 13

Claw 1 Attack 1d20 + 14 ⇒ (14) + 14 = 28
Claw 1 Damage 1d4 + 10 ⇒ (4) + 10 = 14

Claw 2 Attack 1d20 + 14 ⇒ (12) + 14 = 26
Claw 2 Damage 1d4 + 10 ⇒ (1) + 10 = 11

Hit Points 2/30
AC 31 Touch AC 21 Flat-Footed AC 21
Mage Armor 598/600
Mutagen 197/200
Rage 2 Round
Shield 18/20


Male Human Sorcerer 3

His diminutive opponent leaps onto Johnny's face, and tears at his flesh until he collapses unconscious to the ground.

That was brutal. You win! Although I'm curious how you got such huge damage bonuses on a goblin.


Ancient Goblin Secret.

Still heavily wounded, the little goblin's anger would not subside until after he tore out his opponent's throat with one mighty chomp from his razor sharp teeth.

Coup De Grace with his bite for 28 Damage.

Arbiter:
Coup De Grace while raging.

Bite Damage 2d6 + 20 ⇒ (5, 3) + 20 = 28


End of Bout Four
VICTORY TO GNASHER


Challenge Bout
ARIAN VS. LIANE


Liane, level 4

Liane enters the arena for the third time. She is again fully armed and armored. Her leafcloth armor seem to absorb all the light. On her back protrude a curved wooden bow and a long wooden lance. In her left hand, a scimetar is ready while a buckler is strapped to her left arm and she holds a potion in her left hand.
On her left, Pearl her roc companion hops on the ground, fully kitted with a dark saddle, wings half open.

Arbiter:
1d20 + 8 ⇒ (20) + 8 = 28

Initiative 28


Liane, level 4

I may act first :)


Yep, I can't beat that. After you, and good luck!

A muscular half elf walks into the arena, wearing ornate armor with a bandolier of vials slung over it. In his hands he holds a rope with a hook attached to one end and an iron disc attached to the other. The man swings the rope lazily and smiles, revealing red-stained teeth.

Another two on one, huh? You don't look so tough as the dwarf...

Visible weapons--Kyoketsu shoge in hand. Visible armor--parade armor


Liane, level 4

I should not post at 2 AM. I'm afraid my description was wrong (a bad copy and paste)

Corrected description.
Liane has her scimetar on her back alongside her lance and bow and she wields a small glaive guisarme. When she enters, you realize her hair and armor look dirtier than last time.

Arbiter:

Swift action activate ranger focus on Arian.
Mount Pearl 1d20 + 12 ⇒ (19) + 12 = 31 DC20 Free action
Pearl move to C10, 10 foot up.
Liane sunder on Arian weapon with her glaive guisarme 1d20 + 2 + 1 + 2 ⇒ (19) + 2 + 1 + 2 = 24, damage 1d8 + 3 + 2 ⇒ (2) + 3 + 2 = 7

Liane vaults effortlessly on Pearl who takes flight straight towards Arian up to C10 10 feet up in the air.
With her long weapon, she tries to shear the rope of Arian's weapon.

Sunder 24 vs flat footed CMD, damage 7, which should be enough, providing the rope is at most three inches in diameter.


I don't want to look it up right now, so I'll take your word for it. :-)

Round 0

Arian throws the weapon down in disgust and screams up at the halfling:

You think THAT will save you? You never died in here yet, have you? Sure, they'll bring you back, but I'll kill you slow, make you feel it. Then I'll rip your heart out and feed it to your bird. Now get down here and fight!

5ft move to one square north of A11 (it's unlabeled). Demoralize you with intimidate, DC 13 + your Wis modifier is a 22. So if you have a +5 to +9 Wis modifier you are shaken for one round, if you have a +4 to +0 Wis modifier you are shaken for two rounds, and if you have a -1 or lower to your Wis modifier you are shaken for three rounds. Can you just let me know how many rounds you're shaken for? Back to you!

Arbiter:
5ft move to one square north of A11, Standard: Intimidate Check to Demoralize Liane, DC 13 + her Wis Mod 1d20 + 10 ⇒ (12) + 10 = 22


Liane, level 4

IMHO, It's unlabelled because you can't reach it. From what I understood, there's a big portcullis blocking the issues. But that does not really matter because you're not provoquing and AoO and I'm not about to attack you yet...

Liane is shaken for this round and the next.

Round 1

Visibly shaken by the ferocity of her oponent and wishing to avoid a fate similar to her near death at the hands of Basha, Liane directs Pearl back to E3, 25 foot elevation, stores her guisarme in her back and casts a spell.

Arbiter:
Swift action: activate Jugement of sacred protection.
Move action, sheathe her glaive-guisarme.
Standard action cast shield of faith.
Free action : direct Pearl to E3, 25 feet high.

Can you tell me how many visible vials do you have?

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