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I know that with Heighten Spell this can be done and the DC of the spell will increase to align with the new spell level. I am not looking for any increase in DC or any advantage like that. I am just wanting to know if, for example, I am out of 3rd level slots but I have 4th level slots remaining, can I use a 4th level slot to cast a 3rd level spell?
I know that with Heighten Spell this can be done and the DC of the spell will increase to align with the new spell level. I am not looking for any increase in DC or any advantage like that. I am just wanting to know if, for example, I am out of 3rd level slots but I have 4th level slots remaining, can I use a 4th level slot to cast a 3rd level spell?
I feel certain this is addressed directly somewhere, but the short answer is yes.
The closest I can find on a quick scan of the magic section is this.
Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.
These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell.
Although the section is referring to a wizard preparing spells, the reference of 'spellcaster' is generic; I would see no reason why it wouldn't apply to sorcerers as well.
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Yes you can: LINK
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Arcane Spells
Wizards, sorcerers, and bards cast arcane spells. Compared to divine spells, arcane spells are more likely to produce dramatic results.
Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.
<<ninja'd>>
I knew I saw it somewhere, but I had folks in my gaming group say that it could not be done, but we had been allowing that since 3.5 so I was sure it could be done.
Thanks!
Okay, I have guys in my group quoting this line from each of the spontaneous caster descriptions.
PRD: "Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level."
They say that last clause says that if I have used up my 3rd level slots, then I cannot cast a 3rd level spell using a 4th or higher level slot.
My counter is that it means that I could not do the reverse and use a 3rd level slot to cast a 4th level spell. I also break down their logic by saying that if I have at least one 3rd level slot remaining, then I can use a 4th level slot to cast a 3rd level spell.
Does anyone have a succinct way of stating this that I may have missed?
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If you're a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Does anyone have a succinct way of stating this that I may have missed?
I'd flip the question on its head and ask them what other possible meaning the bolded language referenced by RedDogMT could have. If they're hanging their hat on interpreting a clause out of context, let them wrestle with interpreting an entire sentence that contradicts that reading.
I can see the basis of their argument, but I disagree with it.
Normally, I would agree that 'specific trumps general' - that something in the section regarding sorcerers specifically that contradicts a rule regarding arcane casters in general would 'win' - but I think that they're reading a lot into a few words.
I would phrase it as such:
A sorcerer and a wizard are both arcanes pellcasters. Arcane spellcasters can always "fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell". The phrase "...assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level" does not, at least to me, contradict the general rules for spellcasters, but is meant to clarify that as a spontaneous caster a sorcerer cannot cast a higher-level spell using a lower-level slot.
I'm doing some search-fu on the forums and FAQs to see if I can find a more official answer, but to me it doesn't make sense for sorcerers and wizards to be treated differently in this instance.
I would say by RAW that you can not. That is what Heighten Spell (meta) is for. In my games, I house rule that everyone gets Heighten Spell for free. Since it is based on a meta feat, the sorcerer would also need to take a full round to cast the spell. I also ignore that in my game.
I would say by RAW that you can not. That is what Heighten Spell (meta) is for. In my games, I house rule that everyone gets Heighten Spell for free. Since it is based on a meta feat, the sorcerer would also need to take a full round to cast the spell. I also ignore that in my game.
Heighten spell has additional, and important, effects: Casting a 3rd-level spell using a 4th-level slot does not increase the save DCs or any numeric effects based on spell level; using Heightened Spell alters all those effects.
So if Bob the 18 CHA sorcerer is out of 3rd-level spell slots and uses his one remaining 4th-level slot to cast a fireball, the DC for reflex saves against the fireball is still only 17 (10 + spell level 3 + CHA mod 4). If he instead is casting a Heightened Fireball, the spell DC is effectively 18 (10 + altered spell level 4 + CHA mod 4). If the spell had damage based on the spell level (not certain of any off the top of my head) rather than caster level, that would increase as well. Someone attempting to counterspell the fireball would have to use a 4th-level spell slot to do so against a heightened fireball, but not against a fireball cast using a 4th-level spell slot. There are probably other examples as well.
It might be nice to have a designer chime in on this; looking over previous posts, the consensus view seems to be that yes you can, but that might be misinterpreting.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I would say by RAW that you can not.
Incorrect. As noted above and quoted from the rulebook, it is expressly allowed under RAW.
That is what Heighten Spell (meta) is for.
No, Heighten Spell makes this ability (marginally) useful, it does not grant it. Without Heighten Spell, the DC for the save remains unchanged even when the spell is prepared in a higher level slot. With Heighten Spell, the DC changes as if the spell were of the level of the slot being used. These are not the same thing.
I would say by RAW that you can not. That is what Heighten Spell (meta) is for. In my games, I house rule that everyone gets Heighten Spell for free. Since it is based on a meta feat, the sorcerer would also need to take a full round to cast the spell. I also ignore that in my game.
That's not what Heighten Spell is for. Heighten Spell lets you usefully cast a spell at a higher level.
E.g., Charm Person cast as a first level spell has a save DC of 11 plus stat modifier.
Charm Person cast as a first level spell from a 6th level slot has the same DC; it's still a first level spell.
Charm Person (heightened to 6th level) has a save DC of 16 plus stat modifier.
Those extra five points of save DC are what heighten spell is for.
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I would say by RAW that you can not. That is what Heighten Spell (meta) is for. In my games, I house rule that everyone gets Heighten Spell for free. Since it is based on a meta feat, the sorcerer would also need to take a full round to cast the spell. I also ignore that in my game.
See Heighten Spell would increase the DC as well and not fit with the rules as written elsewhere.
Here are the three areas that I have found this referenced so far.
A. Magic: Casting Spells: Choosing a Spell (Page 206): :If you're a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher."
B. Magic: Arcane Spells: Spell Slots (Page 218): "The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels."
C. Classes: Sorcerer: Class Features: Spells (Page 71): "Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level."
So it seems that A and B agree while C seems at odds with them. I can understand how C could be interpreted to mean that a higher level slot may not be expended to cast a lower level spell. However, I can also see how it could mean the reverse that I cannot use a lower level slot to cast a higher level spell.
I guess what breaks it for me to be the former rather than the latter is what if a spontaneous caster has one slot left in a lower level spell slot? Can that caster then use a higher level spell slot to cast the lower level spell because it is worded to say "assuming she has not used up her spells per day for that level." Well in this case, I have not used up my spells per day for that spell level.
Example: If I have one remaining 3rd level slot and 5 remaining 4th level slots. According to the wording of C, I could use any of my 4th level slots to cast a 3rd level spell because I have "not yet used up [my] spells per day for that level." I think that is awkward and is not how the rule is written, nor how it was meant to be interpreted, but I could be wrong.
I would say that a spontaneous caster can fill higher level slots with lower level spells as it specifically says in A and B and just assume that C is trying to support that but in a poorly and often repeated way.
I believe there were no provisions for casting spells in higher slots in 1st/2nd edition (and the (Rary's) Mnemonic Enhancer spell helped deal with that). 3.0+ allowed this, though I think the language was less clear prior to Pathfinder.
Okay, I have guys in my group quoting this line from each of the spontaneous caster descriptions.
PRD: "Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level."
They say that last clause says that if I have used up my 3rd level slots, then I cannot cast a 3rd level spell using a 4th or higher level slot.
My counter is that it means that I could not do the reverse and use a 3rd level slot to cast a 4th level spell. I also break down their logic by saying that if I have at least one 3rd level slot remaining, then I can use a 4th level slot to cast a 3rd level spell.
Does anyone have a succinct way of stating this that I may have missed?
Your spells per day of that level include any higher level spell slots used to cast lower level spells. So if you can cast 6 level 1 spells per day and use a level 2 slot to cast a 1st level spell then you have 7 of that level. I don't see where this quote restricts you at all. Two rules work together.
Your spells per day of that level include any higher level spell slots used to cast lower level spells. So if you can cast 6 level 1 spells per day and use a level 2 slot to cast a 1st level spell then you have 7 of that level. I don't see where this quote restricts you at all. Two rules work together.
While I disagree with their reasoning, they're arguing that the quote says "not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level" rather than saying something like "not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level or higher."
I read it the same way you do - in order to cast a spell, a user must have a valid spell slot remaining, whether that is equal to or higher than the level of the spell.