| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I have not seen any input on this in the forums before,
Lets say I have a reach weapon and a non reach weapon, I am threatening with both.
there are a few ways to do this in the rules, So I don't want to get hung up on that.
When I make my first successful attack, does my cleaving attack need to be with the same weapon as the first attack?
Example: I hit with my non reach weapon (lets say I kill the goblin) and there is another goblin directly behind him (adjacent), can I then cleave into him with my reach weapon?
the feat just says I get an extra attack against someone within reach, it doesn't specify that it has to be with the same weapon, only that they are adjacent to the guy I hit first.
In the PRD, the Cleave feat states:
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Hitting with the second weapon is a second swing, so no.
Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Look at the benefit portion, not the flavor text.
The actual benefit (the rule) does not say a single swing, it also does not say the same weapon.
In 3.5 it was specified that it had to be with the same weapon, here there is no such specification.
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Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Look at the benefit portion, not the flavor text.
The actual benefit (the rule) does not say a single swing, it also does not say the same weapon.
In 3.5 it was specified that it had to be with the same weapon, here there is no such specification.
OK, looking at the 'benefit portion' shows that when you use Cleave, you make a single attack. The only ability I am aware of that lets you make one attack with two weapons is the Two-Weapon Fighter's 'Doublestrike' ability and that ability requires that a standard action be used itself.
Alas, I would say no. When you use Cleave, you attack with only one weapon.
Look at the benefit portion, not the flavor text.
Ah ha ha ha! Good try.
"Pay no attention to the words that say I can't do this."
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Look at the benefit portion, not the flavor text.
The actual benefit (the rule) does not say a single swing, it also does not say the same weapon.
In 3.5 it was specified that it had to be with the same weapon, here there is no such specification.
OK, looking at the 'benefit portion' shows that when you use Cleave, you make a single attack. The only ability I am aware of that lets you make one attack with two weapons is the Two-Weapon Fighter's 'Doublestrike' ability and that ability requires that a standard action be used itself.
Alas, I would say no. When you use Cleave, you attack with only one weapon.
That is the portion I am talking about.
If a fighter, without TWF, makes a full round attack he can decided which weapon he will swing - he can attack with both of his weapons at no additional disadvantage (if he has a +6 BAB). Meaning his first attack with weapon 1 is +6 BAB, his second with weapon 2 is at +1 BAB.
Monks do the same thing with flurry of blows, not all of those attacks have to be from the same source- but they can be.
The only difference here is that it is a standard action. So yes, your initial attack is a single attack, but then you get an additional attack at full BAB. why does it have to be with the same weapon?
So yes, your initial attack is a single attack, but then you get an additional attack at full BAB. why does it have to be with the same weapon?
You are totally correct with regards to full-attack actions.
But a Cleave is not a full-attack action and cannot be used as part of a full-attack action. It is a standard action; thus just one swing.
The question is posted in the rules section. I think the relevant rules have been stated above. The rules don't explicitly cover it, so bit of a grey area. Ask your GM.
Personal opinion - go for it. Once you surmount the hurdle of threatening adjacent while using a reach weapon you have all the ingredients to utilize cleave.
The question is posted in the rules section. I think the relevant rules have been stated above. The rules don't explicitly cover it, so bit of a grey area. Ask your GM.
Personal opinion - go for it. Once you surmount the hurdle of threatening adjacent while using a reach weapon you have all the ingredients to utilize cleave.
Fair enough,
I think from a technical standpoint the way I am reading it is correct. However, I understand the objections.
The reason I am looking for a rule on it, is I was going to make a dwarf fighter for PFS.
He would use a Longaxe and the helmet (threatens near and far!). going down the dwarf cleave chain, by fourth level he could massacre anything in range with a standard action. If they are medium or smaller he can hit anything he threatens with greater cleave, and they don't need to be adjacent because of his feats.
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@Ubercroz
OK, I understand where you are coming from. The 'benefit portion' of the feat does not explicitly say that the additional attack MUST come from the same weapon as the first attack.
However, you are wrong in saying to ignore the flavor text. While I agree that sometimes the flavor text may not tell the whole story about the feat, it is still part of the feat. It says 'a single swing', so if we are left to some interpretation, it leans heavily towards only one weapon being involved.
Sorry. I cannot see a PFS GM seeing it your way.