Paladin Mount in PFS - Gimped?

[Felix Gaunt]

Paladin Bond (Mount):
The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.

PFS FAQ:
As a paladin or cavalier, what mount can I have?
As a paladin, your divine bond mount must be at least one size category larger than you starting at 1st level. If you’re a Medium PC, your mount must be Large. If you’re a Small PC, your mount must be at least Medium. You may only select a mount from the listed mounts on page 63 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook unless another source grants access to additional creature choices.

Now a heavy horse is MUCH better than the lame horse in the Animal Companion list. On one hand the FAQ says you can only select a mount from those listed on page 63, then it says unless another source grants access to additional creature sources. Is the actual description of the Paladin mount above an additional source?

[BigNorseWolf]

IIRC they took out the different horse types for pathfinder, so the paladins horse is just plain horse.

[Felix Gaunt]

Ah ok, was looking at the SRD and not my Core Rulebook. Too bad. :( Thanks.

[Jiggy]

Felix Gaunt wrote:

Ah ok, was looking at the SRD and not my Core Rulebook. Too bad. :( Thanks.

For future reference, keep in mind that the SRD is a fan-made/fan-maintained website. While useful, it has no affiliation with Paizo and is not "official" in any sense (they even recently stopped being able to use setting-specific names/words, so you'll find things in there under names never actually published).

You might look into the Official Paizo PRD. Although less expansive (it only includes hardcover books), it's a source of OGL material much closer to the horse's mouth, so to speak.

[BigNorseWolf]

Its based off the druid critter anyway.

Horse

Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 hooves* (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. *This is a secondary natural attack, see Combat for more information on how secondary attacks work.

4th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2; Special Qualities combat trained (see the Handle Animal skill).

str 19

dex 14

con 17

int 6

wis 12

cha 6

Thats hardly weaksauce.

*includes +1 from the "str/dex bonus column on the druid animal companion chart.

+1 floating ability boost

[Mergy]

The paladin horse also has a great deal more hit dice than a normal horse. There is no reason why a paladin would want to use a regular horse in lieu of their bonded mount.

[Felix Gaunt]

Paizo's SRD says the same thing, Heavy Horse. Reading Heavy Horse it says it has the Advanced Template, so yeah as Adam said it's a much better horse. I'm just trying to figure out if PFS expects me to take a weaker "normal" horse or the advanced version the Paladin class usually gets. Initially I was assuming it was the Heavy version but through the course of doing research I stumbled upon the FAQ entry which confused me.

[Rogue Eidolon]

Felix Gaunt wrote:

Paizo's SRD says the same thing, Heavy Horse. Reading Heavy Horse it says it has the Advanced Template, so yeah as Adam said it's a much better horse. I'm just trying to figure out if PFS expects me to take a weaker "normal" horse or the advanced version the Paladin class usually gets. Initially I was assuming it was the Heavy version but through the course of doing research I stumbled upon the FAQ entry which confused me.

The paladin's mount is the one from the druid list. It is neither the basic horse from the Bestiary nor the basic heavy horse from the Bestiary in the same way that the tiger companion does not use the stats from the Bestiary for either tiger or dire tiger. It is it's own thing.

[Mergy]

Felix Gaunt wrote:

Paizo's SRD says the same thing, Heavy Horse. Reading Heavy Horse it says it has the Advanced Template, so yeah as Adam said it's a much better horse. I'm just trying to figure out if PFS expects me to take a weaker "normal" horse or the advanced version the Paladin class usually gets. Initially I was assuming it was the Heavy version but through the course of doing research I stumbled upon the FAQ entry which confused me.

You must have misunderstood me. I didn't say that a heavy horse is better than a bonded mount, and it's not. The heavy horse has slightly higher strength for a short amount of time, has less hit points, and only has an intellect of 2.

Paladins do not get a heavy horse. They get the normal horse companion as the druid class feature, but with an intelligence of 6. It's better, trust me.

[Felix Gaunt]

lol Ok, well I'd highly advise Paizo to change their wording then, otherwise this is what will happen:

1) Player reads Paladin mount is a heavy horse
2) Player searches for heavy horse, finds horse
3) Player reads horse, in it it says a heavy horse has the advanced template
4) Player reads the advanced template and then applies it to horse
5) Player takes horse to his game, shows his GM who laughs at him, crushing his dream of having a beastly heavy warhorse
6) Player cries softly in the corner

[Mahtobedis]

Also those mounts are not gimped in pathfinder. The squeezing rules are your friend and once you get your hands on animal archive you can take the feat narrow frame which allows your horse to go almost everywhere you would go without penalty.

[Rogue Eidolon]

Felix Gaunt wrote:

lol Ok, well I'd highly advise Paizo to change their wording then, otherwise this is what will happen:

1) Player reads Paladin mount is a heavy horse
2) Player searches for heavy horse, finds horse
3) Player reads horse, in it it says a heavy horse has the advanced template
4) Player reads the advanced template and then applies it to horse
5) Player takes horse to his game, shows his GM who laughs at him, crushing his dream of having a beastly heavy warhorse
6) Player cries softly in the corner

Trust me, Adam is correct that the animal companion version of the horse is significantly better than the Bestiary heavy horse (the basic horse with advanced simple template). It's not even a comparison. In fact, if you put your stat raise into Strength, the horse you get at level 5 is strictly better than the bestiary heavy horse.

[CRobledo]

My retired Seeker is a Paladin with bonded mount. One of the big advantages of Paladin mount over other animal companions, and specifically the cavalier's mount, is that you can spend a full-round action and POOF, instantly teleport your mount to you.

So if a GM gives your grief about sneaking a horse into a party, you can say no problem. But when the fighting finally breaks down (come on, you know it always does), you can have him poof into existence right into the fight.

[Mergy]

Here we go, direct comparison. The horse's stat bump was put into strength.

Heavy Horse:

Str 20, Dex 18, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11

AC 15, touch 13, flat-footed 11 (+4 Dex, +2 natural, -1 size)
hp 19 (2d8+10)
Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +3

Melee 2 hooves +5 (1d6+5) and bite +5 (1d4+5)

Level five paladin horse:

Str 20, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 6

AC 17, touch 11, flat-footed 15 (+2 Dex, +6 natural, -1 size)
hp 37 (5d8+15)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +2

Melee 2 hooves +7 (1d6+5) and bite +7 (1d4+5)

This comparison also doesn't take into account that the animal companion gets three feats you can choose rather than Endurance and Run, as well as a much larger amount of tricks to learn. The animal companion will also continue to advance, while the heavy horse remains exactly as it is.

There is no contest: the animal companion is strictly better.

[Zandari]

CRobledo wrote:

My retired Seeker is a Paladin with bonded mount. One of the big advantages of Paladin mount over other animal companions, and specifically the cavalier's mount, is that you can spend a full-round action and POOF, instantly teleport your mount to you.

So if a GM gives your grief about sneaking a horse into a party, you can say no problem. But when the fighting finally breaks down (come on, you know it always does), you can have him poof into existence right into the fight.

Another new and fancy solution is Hosteling armor. It's not cheap (7500 gp) and requires a standard action to retrieve your critter, but it works. There are some restrictions on size, though. It is from Ultimate Equipment.

[Lab_Rat]

Very nice for non summoning classes. We ran into that issue with a samurai pregen. Being able to summon your animal companion is the only way to have it with you while in the tapestry.

[BigNorseWolf]

Scrolls of Carry companion are a lot cheaper if you have (or are) an allied spellcaster. Just resist the urge to toss the statuette on the ground and say "I choose you!"

[Tristan Windseeker]

Also look at the Carry Companion spell from Knights of the Inner Sea.

2 PP gets you a scroll with 5 castings...

Edit: Ninja'd.

[kinevon]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Scrolls of Carry companion are a lot cheaper if you have (or are) an allied spellcaster. Just resist the urge to toss the statuette on the ground and say "I choose you!"

What?! You mean you don't like my Human Paladin, Silver Crusade, named Ash? And I named his horse Pikachu, of course.

Exposition Runes:

Despite having 14, soon to be 15, PFS PCs, none of them are Paladins, none are named Ash, and none have any sort of Animal Companion or Familiar of any sort, much less one named Pikachu.

Besides, the last time I actually played a Paladin PC was in a 3.0 game, and that game was in 2006 or 2007.