Help me understand the bard. I want to play a skillmonkey with some magic I've already played a witch and wizard recently. I however can't figure out the bard. Its loaded with archetypes, and it looks like there are several ways to play, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to go about it. I don't want to create someone and then have to throw him away because he becomes worthless. No rebuilds is a pain.
I'm trying to pick one that doesn't give up too much in the way of skillpoints. I'm big on spellcasting. Most of all I don't want to turn into deadweight in a fight, or be so squishy death is garunteed. That seems to be the only bard or rogue I ever meet, and I don't want to be one of them. Pretend its a PFS enviroment so I won't know my party until it changes constantly.
Well, my favorite Bard archetypes are the Dawnflower Dervish, Dirge Bard, Chelish Deva, and Archaeologist. Like, head and shoulders above any other kind of bard. (Note: d20pfsrd has different names for some of them due to copyright issues, if that throws you off)
Dawnflower Dervish: The best melee bard, and as close to SAD as a bard can get (it's a Dex + Cha class; Con of course also nice). Gets dex to hit and damage w/ scimitars right from 1st level, and gets DOUBLE inspire bonus...but can only inspire himself. Keeps a lot of the nice side features like Versatile Performance and Suggestion.
Dirge Bard: Gets to affect undead with mind-affecting spells (unlikely to work due to undead's good base will and lots of HD, though), can cherry pick necromancy sorc/wiz spells to add to his known spells, and gets to recreate the "Thriller" music video at 10th level. Just good in general against undead (also get a save bonus against their nastiest stuff), a creature type bard normally struggles against.
Chelish Deva: Gives up the least stuff of the 4, I think, is basically just "bard, but better." Lets you eventually wear and cast in medium and then heavy armor. Lets you burn extra perform rounds to pump perform save DCs. Best ability is its no save single target frightened effect.
Archaeologist: Basically a rogue that trades SA for spellcasting and self-buffing. Selfish inspire-like effect, as with DD above. This time, it's a only a swift to activate, potentially making this the best archer bard, since you can activate and still full attack. Few rounds/day, so Lingering Performance is basically a required feat to triple your rounds/day. You get Trapfinding (but better!), rogue talents, evasion... You do lose Versatile Performance, which is a bit of a bummer.
I'll take a peak at each one. Bards with the armor armor expert trait can already wear medium armor without penalty. Mithril breastplate. Mithral specifies you taking the ACP penalty, but not the spellcasting. The full plate comes in a little late.
if you want to be a skill monkey then you need to pick one that does not give up Versatile Performance.
I am a fan of the Court Bard, and the Street Performer and Thundercaller
For the bard to really work you have to know what you want to do before you build the class. It's a case of know then character then build to match his fluff.
if you want to be a skill monkey then you need to pick one that does not give up Versatile Performance.
I am a fan of the Court Bard, and the Street Performer and Thundercaller
Well, actually they have 6+ skillpoints so they can go pretty far so long as you don't dump int. Bardic Knowledge is plenty of skillpoints on its own, and lore master/jack of all trades(which I'm more than willing to give up myself) also add to the skills. I'm having trouble not dumping int/wis and I'm sure I can dump strength if I go with dervish dance. So long as I can wear my armor and find someone else to carry my pack its easy!
If you could tell me what makes those archetypes special that would be great. Sometimes a quick read doesn't reveal as much as it should.
For the bard to really work you have to know what you want to do before you build the class. It's a case of know then character then build to match his fluff.
Yeah, thats sort of where I'm at. I'm leaning toward putting him in medium armor and portraying him as a heroic knight with a royal lion motif. Heroic commanders, black knights, and knighst in shining armor are always my favorite appearances. Its also very off type for the bard. I'll probably go the dervish dance route. So many options with bards its hard see the best way to do things.
Putting him in medium armor will hard cap his max dex to hp (though with mithral breastplate or celestial mail I guess it would take a while to reach the cap), which conflicts with going the dervish dance route, where you're using dex for all combat roles and want it very high.
In any case, if that is what you want, I really think you should go with Dawnflower Dervish, it jives completely w/ your goals and keeps Versatile Performance and Jack of All Trades (loses the knowledge related ones, though). And sets you up well for taking the Blade of Mercy trait so you can easily take foes alive if wanted. Which itself combines well with Enforcer feat, so that your mere attack instills fear in your adversaries.
Don't know if I'll hit 20 dex in a campaign. Bard seems spread out. Getting both 16 in dex and charisma seems like something I have to go out of my way to do in a 20 point buy. Would dropping one to 14 be too much? At best without dumping wisdom it looks like 7/16/12/12/10/16. I'd have to put the racial into dex to get over 20 in a span of 10ish levels wouldn't I?(expecting when campaigns normally die). Guess it doesn't seem too far out of the way.
I do like enforcer with blade of mercy, not a fan of saranrae myself but the combo is great.
Human: Str 9, Dex 18 (racial +2), Con 14, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 16
Less extreme: Str 10, Dex 16 (racial +2), Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 16
I think the top array is better, though.
Or be a different race.
Azata-blooded Aasimar: Str 10, Dex 18 (racial +2), Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 16 (racial +2)
Fetchling: Str 8, Dex 18 (racial +2), Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8 (racial -2), Cha 16 (racial +2)
Human is of course the best race for the bonus spells known. Aasimar is also pretty good for the faster advancing performance (choose inspire courage). I guess Half-Elf is decent for skill focus if going for Eldritch Heritage, though Human can get multiple skill focus feats with a variant...
Not a big fan of half elves myself. Humans will always be on top in life, favored class only makes them that much better.
Anyone have suggestions for eldritch heritage? Again, lots of options and a lot think about. Familiar seems nice and makes a skill monkey better. 2 rolls or free assist is always appreciated.
Familiar is the best choice.
If you're willing to wait until level 11 and Improved EH for the pay off, Marid bloodline becomes very nice:
That's right! An at will 60 ft line AoE supernatural (no SR!) attack that does untyped damage and BLINDS for multiple rounds! Pretty sweet if you can stand to wait for it.
Familiar is the best choice.
If you're willing to wait until level 11 and Improved EH for the pay off, Marid bloodline becomes very nice:
** spoiler omitted **That's right! An at will 60 ft line AoE supernatural (no SR!) attack that does untyped damage and BLINDS for multiple rounds! Pretty sweet if you can stand to wait for it.
Well that certainly blows the competetion out of the water. Most of my games end around 3-9, PFS ends at 12 if I happen try that again. Unlimited use blinding line of water is amazing. I'll probably end up with the familiar, but I'll keep that one in mind.
If you want to wind up in medium armor your only option is a Chelish Diva because of ASF issues. This does not mesh with the dervish dance route. It also loses you lore master.
I don't care much for lore master, nor jack of all trades. Knowledge is something I can take or leave, and a little investment goes a long way. Bard Knowledge helps that out anyway.
Actually if you put Mithral on medium armor it makes it a light armor for purposes of ASF. Proficiency is required to avoid the ACP penalty, however if you have 0 ACF through the use of Mithral and the armor expert trait... Your only likely to have a +4 dex belt before level 10 from my experience. So if I have 16 I probably won't hit the cap. 18 requires a mithril chain, which is cheap.
Dawnflower Dervish's selfish performance is a bad trade the moment you represent less than half of the combat power in your party. Add a full BAB character that intends to full attack and every level at which he has more iteratives than you Dawnflower Dervish is suboptimal. If you have a cleric that intends to swing his mace as well it's just inferior at every level.
No matter what the bard is going to be suboptimal in combat unless the foes have low will saves. Then your enemies make nice pets. I would like however to be useful in combat. Its something I've seen people lack when they go for the skill monkey gig. I've played witch and wizard a bit too much lately and I'd like to try out another option.
I'm not entirely sure what is most important to you. You talked mostly about being a skill monkey in the beginning but are focusing a lot on being useful in combat in your posts now. What exactly do you mean? Do you want to dealing lots of damage on your own, or do you want to just be helpful to your party? Because the party is already great at the latter; Inspire Courage and Dirge of Doom make everyone better at fighting, including you. You can sing while swinging your own sword around.
What does buffing have to do with skill monkeying? DD Bard has Versatile Performance and Jack of All Trades, it can skill monkey just fine. And still has spells to buff with in any case, like Haste.
I'm not entirely sure what is most important to you. You talked mostly about being a skill monkey in the beginning but are focusing a lot on being useful in combat in your posts now. What exactly do you mean? Do you want to dealing lots of damage on your own, or do you want to just be helpful to your party? Because the party is already great at the latter; Inspire Courage and Dirge of Doom make everyone better at fighting, including you. You can sing while swinging your own sword around.
The party is not always that great. Many days in PFS I have felt like I'm filling others roles. I like good versatile characters. I want to do a lot of things. Being viable in combat is a big one however, and being a skillmonkey doesn't require a huge investment. Bards and possibly (Inquisitors and rangers) do it better than the rogue. I also happen to be a fan of spellcasting and not a big fan of inquisitors playstyle.
I rarely have groups with a lot of melee, or people who use more than one attack(cavaliers, melee that move without any abilities to make it better) or aren't that great at attacking(Bards who don't flank.) I'm not totally attached to anything yet myself. Just examining all my options before I make a character.
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Personally, I would say that if Bardic Knowledge is something you can take or leave and would like to be an effective combatant, then the best choice is an Arcane Duelist. You sacrifice Bardic Knowledge and get some damn good combat utility, eventually being the only Bard who can wear heavy armor and wield a 2 handed weapon while casting spells. A 1st level Half-Orc Arcane Duelist with a great axe could already keep pace with a fighter damage wise and have excellent utility outside combat. Plus spells!
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I value the powers of the core bard too much to give them up for an archetype that makes them better in some non-bardy way.
Versatile Performance is the ultimate in skill monkeying.
Inspire Courage is the ultimate support ability, especially in large groups.
Bardic Knowledge lets you pick up a lot of slack for people min-maxing other things.
If in doubt, I'd play a core bard. They're solid, well-rounded characters best at support but good at filling in whereever is needed.
If you want to be good at melee combat, I agree with EntririsShadow, go with Arcane Duelist. If I want to play a "gish" type character I actually prefer them to magi, just for my personal play style.
If you want to focus on magical ability, I'd probably go with magician or maybe sandman (which is basically the Pathfinder take on the spellthief).
If you want to play a bard/rogue hybrid, go sandman or archeologist.
Otherwise... my best advice is to really flesh out a concept for your bard FIRST, pick your desired focus on skills, spells, combat, healing, control, etc. Just have a really solid concept you like. Then choose your archetype (or lack thereof) from there.
Arcane Duelist is not a good archetype. Bladethirst is probably better than normal inspire courage for one person. But then you're not using inspire on the group, which is better than bladethirst on just one person, usually. Bladethirst is also inferior to the self-only doubled inspire of DD Bard.
The Arcane Bond is actually a nerf as it precludes you from gaining an Arcane Bond familiar via Eldritch Heritage.
The bonus feats are mostly worthless until the 14th and 18th level ones.
The only part of the archetype that is downright good is the armor use, but OP said he's envisioning mithral medium armor, which he can use with a mere trait and suffer no penalties.
For all of this, you lose basically everything DD Bard does, plus Versatile Performance, Suggestion, and Jack of All Trades.
If you want to be a gishy mage fighter type that imbues his own weapon with on the spot magical properties, you should just play a magus; arcana is way better than bladethirst.
I actually find familiar to be a powerful option for a skill monkey. Dictum Mortum's guide is pretty good if someone wants a peak at some old 3.5 Options. The big thing is that its 2 rolls for many checks, and even if one is weaker free assist and second rolls are always welcome. A possible +4 to initative is icing on the cake. My favorite reason is having a pet of course.
Arcane Duelist does give up more skills that I would like, it also doesn't give much in return. Feats rarely equal class features, in this case arcane strike I can nab at any time and the extra feats certainly aren't as nice as what it gives up. Armor is meh because no bard is going to dump dex so much, its easy to get anyway, and it comes in too late to matter. Its definitely different, but if I wanted to play a melee focused caster magus is a thing. I just want a bard who is viable in combat today.
I am developing a facial tick for every time I read 'skill monkey'.
I am developing a facial tick for every time I read 'skill monkey'.
If you would like I can start to refer to them as Skill Iguanas instead. I'm okay with calling it Skill Cats myself, skill Kittens if it needs an adorable tone for the kids. Skill Kitties cool with you?
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Skill Kitties sounds like a great name for a terrible ska band.
Another vote fore the core bard. If your main goals are skill monkey and some magic, Bard is the best choice, and the core Bard gets you as much as you're going to get of that.
Archetypes move you a bit away from that. How far they move away and what they give up varies a lot. The main things you shouldn't give up are Versatile Performance (which is what makes the Bard the ultimate skill monkey), and of course spellcasting (no idea if there's an archetype that gives that up).
A basic archer bard is a solid build. Go for Cha and Dex; your high Dex will help your AC, and you get to do damage in combat. But if your party has a couple of other combatants (and I hope it does), Inspire Courage might well be your biggest contribution to any combat. It's good.
Archaeologist gives up Versatile Performance, so you'll be a bit less of a skill monkey that way. At least in social skills. You do get something in return: bonuses to disable device and perception. Not just against traps, but against everything, and that's pretty good. If you care about these skills and less about social skills, this is also a solid choice. You're basically a spell casting super rogue that doesn't do sneak attacks.
I actually find familiar to be a powerful option for a skill monkey. Dictum Mortum's guide is pretty good if someone wants a peak at some old 3.5 Options. The big thing is that its 2 rolls for many checks, and even if one is weaker free assist and second rolls are always welcome. A possible +4 to initative is icing on the cake. My favorite reason is having a pet of course.
Arcane Duelist does give up more skills that I would like, it also doesn't give much in return. Feats rarely equal class features, in this case arcane strike I can nab at any time and the extra feats certainly aren't as nice as what it gives up. Armor is meh because no bard is going to dump dex so much, its easy to get anyway, and it comes in too late to matter. Its definitely different, but if I wanted to play a melee focused caster magus is a thing. I just want a bard who is viable in combat today.
Then like I said, you're going to decide on and be a lot clearer about what you want in your character. "I wanna be good at skills and decent at combat" isn't acceptable because you can build ANY bard that way, pretty much. And most (not all) suggestions people are giving you, you're then just going, "Okay, no I don't want that one because..." or not even answering them.
If you can come back and say, for example, "I am using these books, and I want to play a character who is good with X weapon, supports combat in X exact way, is defensive in X exact manner, and is good at X kind of skills," then maybe we can offer advice you might actually consider taking. Or are you just asking us for advice so you can then argue with it? Sorry if I get tetchy, but it's become a trend around here for people to ask for build advice, give us absolutely nothing to start with, and then they dismiss most options suggested. What's the point?
Well I was commenting on the dislike of familiar and arcane duelist. I think "What type of bards are competant in combat" is a fine question. Just point to combat styles (Archery, dervish dancer, sword and board) or archetypes (Archeaologist, Arcane Duelist, Nilla'). I'm not picky or have to make the character in a week so its not like I'm in a rush. The issue is there are a crazy number of options from what I can tell and its hard to pick or choose between them. I'd be fine if someone suggested something I didn't ask for, but I'm going to make commentary.