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Add in the rogue talent that allows you to move at full speed while stealthy and skill mastery that lets then use it under adverse and you can take 10 to have basically invisibility level stealth.This is one of my biggest problems with the rogue right here: by optimizing him for a certain task, by 10th level he's "basically as good" as a spell the wizard gets at 3rd level. It's stuff like this that makes me want to kick puppies.
As good, all the time. Literally can walk around with a 41 stealth all day at full speed if he feels like it.
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More trap fun. This next one is ridiculously easy, as long as you spot it, which honestly doesn't take a rogue (or rogue replacement) to do.
Weakened Planks Over Pit Trap CR 10
Type mechanical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device N/A
Effect 600 ft. deep pit (20d6); DC 20 Reflex avoids.
Anybody can beat this trap. Someone focused in trap finding will just laugh at it.
Rolling Boulder Trap CR 10
Type mechanical; Perception DC 30; Disable Device DC 25
Effect rolling boulders (12d6 bludgeoning damage; DC 25 Reflex save for half); multiple targets (all targets on the ground in area D2)
Not sure what area D2 is, but anyway.
This is a bit more challenging. Just "having eyes" is not going to spot this trap, you will need to make a significant investment into perception to have a chance to spot it and even then you might miss it unless you are really good (like my rogue or the bard that was posted). A DC 25 Reflex save is going to be difficult to make and 42 points of damage to the whole party will be costly to fix in daily resources.
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Why would they hit the people with high stealth exactly? Could use a good story.
They wouldn't. That is my point.
Lets say you go halfling, with the full movement variant. He can literally wander the battlefield all but invisible, and then as long as anything is nearby to hide behind, one bluff check and they are hiding again.
As good, all the time. Literally can walk around with a 41 stealth all day at full speed if he feels like it.
Three levels before that, I can make a ring that does the same thing. And I didn't use up most of my class features doing it.
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As good, all the time. Literally can walk around with a 41 stealth all day at full speed if he feels like it.Three levels before that, I can make a ring that does the same thing. And I didn't use up most of my class features doing it.
And we could go back and forth on this, but the question was "Can I make a viable character doing 'X'" and this is something valuable, is it not?
Also, can do damage. Sneak attack is damage. You would also put points into bluff so you can hide even when observed.
Also, look into Improved Feint. In fact, ultimate combat has a ton of feint feat options.
Yes, I've looked into it. Its a litte feat heavy. Requires 13 int and combat expertise too for some reason. Gives up attacks too. Some creatures are just immune to feint.
You also don't run around while observed very well. The moment you attack you pop out, unless you make a bluff to go back. Doesn't set you up for sneak attacks that well either if your moving around. Using bluff to go back in requires 2 checks, one at a penalty, but usually both.
Edit: Sneak Attack isn't glorious damage, but it certainly beats not having it at all!
It is though. Move action, feint. Std action, single sneak attack for weapon damage + 1d/6(1/2 rogue level). Requires being in melee at beginning of turn, or 5 feat step away. Means you can't really leverage the sneak attacks, and has a feat and skill tax to work, if it even works.
That damage is better than nothing, but its not noteworthy for any martial class, and its not even noteworthy for most 3/4 BAB classes.
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Again, the question is viable. A halfling or gnome with This build could start up at +14 stealth with a +5 to hit. That is viable. The question is how does it do each level going forward.
I think skill focus each level is a mistake, but I can definitely see a party role for a player who can do these things out of combat, so the in-combat expectation isn't as high.
It isn't a build I would like to play, but it could work. Imagine a gnome with ghost sound or a halfling sniping with a sling with this build could be a hell of a lot of fun.
And isn't that the goal?
Original Goal here:
I was thinking of playing a rogue with 18 dex and 16 int with 10s in all the other stats as a human. I plan to use my rogue talents for weapon finesse, fast stealth, a combat feat, weapon focus, and skill mastery twice. I'm only planning out to lvl 12.
My normal feats would be ones that added bonuses to skills like stealthy and skill focus.
Can this character function and contribute to the party in an effective way regardless of the campaign situation?
Yours is actually pretty feat heavy.
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The problem here is that a rogue needs to specialize to be a better skill monkey than a non-skill-focused bard. The skill monkey I am going for isn't just effective with skills, he is better than anyone who does not focus on skills.
Now comes the problem where I can't achieve that and still contribute effectively in combat. I could still fight, but a poorly built monk would still be doing more than I would.
I will say this again...
Try 3E
It won't kill you, honest.
It is a rules system very close to PF, and offers exactly what you seek. To recap:
- Class skills make a huge difference vs. cross-class
- So many skills it's impossible for anyone who isn't a focused skill monkey to grab "all the good ones" let alone all of them in general
- You can do greater things with lower DCs
- There is an entire set of epic skill DCs to do really crazy awesome stuff with really good modifiers
- There were tons of additional uses for various skills added in nearly every player-oriented splat book
- There are just plain more powerful effects and more combat-useful ones. Right in core is the rushed diplomacy option to end a fight. Iaijutsu Focus lets you do SA-caliber damage with a skill check. And so forth.
And now to expand on my last post... 3E also offered a ton of options to directly use skills in combat. Like this feat which lets you turn your book smarts into lethal combat efficiency. Or this feat to make anyone you intimidate cower in place (and you can totally "cower-lock" them over and over). Or this feat to let you use stealth against most special senses. Or this feat* to Intimidate a foe you've hit to make him have a harder time harming you.
Or this feat to get a bunch of options for Diplomacy and Intimidate.
There are also the Tome of Battle maneuvers. One of my personal favorites is Swooping Dragon Strike. You have to make a jump check sufficient to leap over the foe, you then deliver a brutal strike as you sail overhead. The attack does +10d6 damage, and the foe must fort save w/ a DC of your jump check result or be stunned for 1 round. This is a high level maneuver, of course (min. level 13 to get it).
*That page has horrible editing and made it all one big paragraph. Here is the part I was referring to:
In any case, there are a staggeringly massive amount of options in 3E to use skills for badassness in combat, these were only some of them that I recall offhand (since I've used them recently).
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Original Goal here:
Yours is actually pretty feat heavy.I was thinking of playing a rogue with 18 dex and 16 int with 10s in all the other stats as a human. I plan to use my rogue talents for weapon finesse, fast stealth, a combat feat, weapon focus, and skill mastery twice. I'm only planning out to lvl 12.
My normal feats would be ones that added bonuses to skills like stealthy and skill focus.
Can this character function and contribute to the party in an effective way regardless of the campaign situation?
Level 1 skill focus or stealthy
Level 2 weapon finesse (rogue talent)Level 3 Stealthy or skill focus (whichever I didn't take)
Level 4 Fast stealth
And I'm basically there for what I need to move at full speed while using stealth, with the feats that maximize my stealth going forward and my stealth is I believe +20 moving at full speed, assuming nothing that increases my dex.
Don't forget feint. You went on about how great feint is. Did you mean 2 weapon feint? thats 4 feats right there, if not 2.
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The problem with your logic being that the OP was seeking a way to make a concept work, and the response was "Playing that concept is stupid"
Which is basically saying "What you want to do is wrongbadfun" because this rogue won't be as effective as it could be.
Will it be unplayable? I don't think so. It still has a high attack and AC (Dex is high) and doesn't need strength for damage, so what we are really talking about is low saves and hit points. One feat addresses hit points, and one item addresses saves.
What bothers me is this idea that anything below "optimized" is unplayable.
Unplayable? Not really... Completely redundant and easily overshadowed? Yeah, that's about right.
Nobody told the OP to play the best possible build ever, nobody even suggested a full caster.Nobody said "playing the concept is stupid", what we did say was closer to "that character concept will most likely be rather useless compared to its fellow party members"
There is a huge difference between pointing out how weak a build is and telling people the concept behind that build is stupid. If my friend wants to play a light-armored Fighter who spends all his combat feats in random exotic weapon proficiencies and all his normal feats on skill focus, I'll tell him that's a pretty weak build. I don't care how much he lvoes the concept, it's still a terrible build, I will still say it's a terrible build every time.
Like the proposed skill-monkey Rogue, it can it do something. He might even have a decent DPR thanks to Weapon Training, but it'll most likely be easily overshadowed and quite possibly, the least useful party member.
What you have is a build that has all the skills, ever. In many campaigns that would allow them to avoid tons of conflicts, or at least have the conflicts on their terms.
Think of it this way. With the stealth skill maxed and focused with this build, at first level you have a stealth of +8 (+4 dex, +1 rank +3 trained). If you are small, +11 at 1st level.
With skill focus (and small), you are at +14
You can do that at first level.
By 10th level, you could have 10 (rank) + 3 (trained) + 6 (skill focus) + 4 (stealthy) +4 (small) + 4 Dex
Meaning, even with no addition to dexterity you would have a + 31 to stealth. Add in the rogue talent that allows you to move at full speed while stealthy and skill mastery that lets then use it under adverse and you can take 10 to have basically invisibility level stealth.
How is that not awesome?
What's the point of a Rogue being hidden all the time? An inivisible Magus, Wizard, Bard, random-casting-class can at least buff his allies or summon some critters. A Rogue will simply stay there, watching the battle and hoping his friends don't get slaughtered.
And he'll pray whatever found his friends won't find him, because none of his defenses will be very good. AC, CMD and Saves all range from atrocious to okay.
His skills will be awesome, and trapfiding might be useful... But there's a fair chance that he won't be the best in any of those. Or, if he's the best, it's not much of a difference, at least certainly not enough to compensate for his uselessness in combat. Like it or not, combat a huge part of the game, and its consequences are usually more serious than those of failing a Bluff check.
So no way to be creative with skills in combat I take it? I noticed the steal maneuver, does this mean that I couldn't use slight-of-hand to take things from people during combat?
Can you not get by with crossbow sniping in combat?
I'm not looking for build advice, just an evaluation. I am trying to see the viability of a pure skill monkey.
Feint uses bluff, not CMB, so I suggest you use Bluff and take the Feint feats. For example, there's Greater Feint which makes the enemy dex-AC-deprived for all your allies.
Bluff also lets you distract, allowing you to hide in combat by running behind cover or concealment after the distraction. Cover and concealment can be found or made (Wand of Obscuring Mist, Smoke Bombs, Horn of Fog, etc.). This gives an option for hit&fade since you don't want to be exposed to enemy attack with those low HP.
Ultimately in the higher levels, you'll likely be a wand monkey who does the occasional sneak attack. That said, think about stocking up on useful wands level 1-2, like Grease, CLW, Enlarge Person, Silent Image, Obscuring Mist and so on.
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Unplayable? Not really... Completely redundant and easily overshadowed? Yeah, that's about right.
Nobody told the OP to play the best possible build ever, nobody even suggested a full caster.
Nobody said "playing the concept is stupid", what we did say was closer to "that character concept will most likely be rather useless compared to its fellow party members"
Which is why I asked for goal posts. BY was saying it was a pointless effort.
The OP asked if they could make the concept work and be viable.
So where are the goal posts?
Original Goal here:
Yours is actually pretty feat heavy.I was thinking of playing a rogue with 18 dex and 16 int with 10s in all the other stats as a human. I plan to use my rogue talents for weapon finesse, fast stealth, a combat feat, weapon focus, and skill mastery twice. I'm only planning out to lvl 12.
My normal feats would be ones that added bonuses to skills like stealthy and skill focus.
Can this character function and contribute to the party in an effective way regardless of the campaign situation?
Level 1 skill focus or stealthy
Level 2 weapon finesse (rogue talent)
Level 3 Stealthy or skill focus (whichever I didn't take)
Level 4 Fast stealthAnd I'm basically there for what I need to move at full speed while using stealth, with the feats that maximize my stealth going forward and my stealth is I believe +20 moving at full speed, assuming nothing that increases my dex.
Goal post are in the first quotes of course. You also still don't have twf, which is big for a rogue to do damage. He also has little suvivability in combat if he's found, which is actually very likely.
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Original Goal here:
Yours is actually pretty feat heavy.I was thinking of playing a rogue with 18 dex and 16 int with 10s in all the other stats as a human. I plan to use my rogue talents for weapon finesse, fast stealth, a combat feat, weapon focus, and skill mastery twice. I'm only planning out to lvl 12.
My normal feats would be ones that added bonuses to skills like stealthy and skill focus.
Can this character function and contribute to the party in an effective way regardless of the campaign situation?
Level 1 skill focus or stealthy
Level 2 weapon finesse (rogue talent)
Level 3 Stealthy or skill focus (whichever I didn't take)
Level 4 Fast stealthAnd I'm basically there for what I need to move at full speed while using stealth, with the feats that maximize my stealth going forward and my stealth is I believe +20 moving at full speed, assuming nothing that increases my dex.
5th Skill Focus: Bluff
6th Combat Expertise (Rogue Talent: combat feat)7th Improved Feint
Checking in to see if I am still viable before I go on.
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Goal post are in the first quotes of course. You also still don't have twf, which is big for a rogue to do damage. He also has little suvivability in combat if he's found, which is actually very likely.Original Goal here:
Yours is actually pretty feat heavy.I was thinking of playing a rogue with 18 dex and 16 int with 10s in all the other stats as a human. I plan to use my rogue talents for weapon finesse, fast stealth, a combat feat, weapon focus, and skill mastery twice. I'm only planning out to lvl 12.
My normal feats would be ones that added bonuses to skills like stealthy and skill focus.
Can this character function and contribute to the party in an effective way regardless of the campaign situation?
Level 1 skill focus or stealthy
Level 2 weapon finesse (rogue talent)
Level 3 Stealthy or skill focus (whichever I didn't take)
Level 4 Fast stealthAnd I'm basically there for what I need to move at full speed while using stealth, with the feats that maximize my stealth going forward and my stealth is I believe +20 moving at full speed, assuming nothing that increases my dex.
Likely to be found with a +20 stealth? Relative to what benchmark?
Am I suddenly a solo adventurer?
Why wouldn't it be likely? Does having friends suddly change that? Does being able to move around a field with a high stealth let you deal big damage? Is sneak attack big numbers? Improved feint if you have to use it still gets rid of your iteratives and you still don't have twf. You also just spent a feat on something that isn't a skill bonus.
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Skills are a means to an end.
Figure out what that end is, and build appropriately.
Focus not on the Skill part, but what those Skills accomplish.
Once you know what you want to accomplish, then you can build a viable PC, that accomplishes those tasks.
Think about it.
If I said I wanted a "feat focused PC", then what the heck would you do with that?
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Why wouldn't it be likely? Does having friends suddly change that? Does being able to move around a field with a high stealth let you deal big damage? Is sneak attack big numbers? Improved feint if you have to use it still gets rid of your iteratives and you still don't have twf. You also just spent a feat on something that isn't a skill bonus.
Being able to move everywhere at +20 stealth. I have full movement at +20 stealth. The only reason I wouldn't stealth at all times is if I want to be seen.
So I am the least likely person in any party to be seen. And since I am getting at least 11 skill points a level (8+3 int) I am probably maxed out in perception as well (with a +2 from Halfling or gnome) and am most likely to see them first.
And of course it is a skill bonus. It is a bonus to a type of bluff. Are you that hellbent on proving it is impossible that you will grasp at straws like that?
Why wouldn't it be likely? Does having friends suddly change that? Does being able to move around a field with a high stealth let you deal big damage? Is sneak attack big numbers? Improved feint if you have to use it still gets rid of your iteratives and you still don't have twf. You also just spent a feat on something that isn't a skill bonus.Being able to move everywhere at +20 stealth. I have full movement at +20 stealth. The only reason I wouldn't stealth at all times is if I want to be seen.
So I am the least likely person in any party to be seen. And since I am getting at least 11 skill points a level (8+3 int) I am probably maxed out in perception as well (with a +2 from Halfling or gnome) and am most likely to see them first.
And of course it is a skill bonus. It is a bonus to a type of bluff. Are you that hellbent on proving it is impossible that you will grasp at straws like that?
Improve feint is not a bonus on bluff. Where do you see +x bluff in the feat? Fient also has -4 against non humaoids, -8 against animals, and undead/vermin are outright immune to it.
You are the least likely to be seen. Also probably the least likely to do much damage. You take a -10 to stealth for trying to use it without cover of course. Theres still a good chance you'll be seen by a foe with a good perception.
Claiming I'm grasping at straws is not welcome. I can just as easily make claims of you doing the same.
Feint is a maneuver. You improved a maneuver that uses a skill. You did nothing to the skill.
I'm telling him its an awful idea, not that it can't be done. You can do anything. Its not always smart to though. I can build a fighter with 18 INT/CHA. He might not be great at hitting things, or surviving being hit himself, but boy is he smart and good looking!
I guess technically any high charisma character with leadership feat and a really powerful cohort is "useful"...
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Feint is a maneuver. You improved a maneuver that uses a skill. You did nothing to the skill.
I'm telling him its an awful idea, not that it can't be done. You can do anything. Its not always smart to though. I can build a fighter with 18 INT/CHA. He might not be great at hitting things, or surviving being hit himself, but boy is he smart and good looking!
Feint is a skill check.
And again, you have come into a thread to tell the OP his idea is wrongbadfun, and continue arguing that him trying to do it is wrong for what purpose exactly?
Aren't you the same person who in another thread questioned my making people should actual follow a rule in the book regarding alignment, but here this player is wrongbad for trying out something *gasp* SUBOPTIMAL!
It isn't the powergaming that bothers me. It's the hypocrisy of the same people who scream and rant when someone says they are using cheese get equally indignant about someone not doing so.
That is the dividing line between where I am pretty much "Live and let live" and I actually go ahead and say something in a thread.
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Being able to move everywhere at +20 stealth. I have full movement at +20 stealth. The only reason I wouldn't stealth at all times is if I want to be seen.Where are you getting concealment from?
Any object a or shadow big enough for small creature to use, which is a lot of objects and shadows.
"A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover"
A halfling or a Gnome is about 3 feet tall. So anything over a 1 1/2 tall should do.
Feint is a maneuver. You improved a maneuver that uses a skill. You did nothing to the skill.
I'm telling him its an awful idea, not that it can't be done. You can do anything. Its not always smart to though. I can build a fighter with 18 INT/CHA. He might not be great at hitting things, or surviving being hit himself, but boy is he smart and good looking!
Feint is a skill check.
And again, you have come into a thread to tell the OP his idea is wrongbadfun, and continue arguing that him trying to do it is wrong for what purpose exactly?
Aren't you the same person who in another thread questioned my making people should actual follow a rule in the book regarding alignment, but here this player is wrongbad for trying out something *gasp* SUBOPTIMAL!
It isn't the powergaming that bothers me. It's the hypocrisy of the same people who scream and rant when someone says they are using cheese get equally indignant about someone not doing so.
That is the dividing line between where I am pretty much "Live and let live" and I actually go ahead and say something in a thread.
I don't see improved feint making bluff any better. Regardless its a supobtimal option because it gives up any and all iteratives. 1 sneak attack per round, I can do less than half as much as a blaster wizard does to a whole crowd! Woohoo? Oh and I have to be standing right next to the foe to use the feint since it gives up my movement.
I didn't say wrongbadfun, or said it was suboptimal. I never used those words. Just suggested highly against and said it would be nigh useless at combat. Huge difference.
He asked, I answered. You want me to tell him its a great idea, heres how to do it? When its a bad idea and theres no way without at least some investment into combat. I'm not even doing it in a rude way. Your treatment of me is like I'm out to get people or I'm saying never or he's a horrible person for thinking it. I try to give suggestions to help.
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Here is the concept as I understand it...
I am an average Joe, or at least I appear to be. Far from average though, I am quite quick and clever and nothing misses my notice. I read people like a book and always know the right thing to say to get my way, although I am never the center of attention. My nimble finger can get me what I need regardless of who has what I want. Through use of cunning and skill I can get into just about anywhere. My logical mind can figure out just about any lock, trap or device. Although completely mundane I am equally versed in the use of magical devices, whether utilizing or disabling. In combat I try to focus on not being hit with the belief that the best defense is not being where an attack is landing. When I do strike I take my time to find an opening and make sure it hurts.
Is this an unreasonable concept? Am I being to inflexible?
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What I fail to understand, is that the concept is mechanical, as described, but pushed forth, as flavor, though both fail, if one limits their options to meeting that concept.
So, you want to be good at skills.
What skills?
What do you want to do with them?
How do you want to contribute to the party?
What tasks do you want to accomplish, through skill use?
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ciretose, you give me the impression that your idea of a useful character is a character who can do any one thing. Like... anything at all. If all it has is max ranks in Ride and Handle Animal, then you call it useful because it can tame horses.
I suppose "has a use" can technically be called "useful", but realistically, "doing something" is not good enough, "doing something awesome and/or meaningful" is what most of players want.
You keep talking and talking about people telling the OP his idea is badwrong fun, but noone did that. All we did was pointing out how weak his character will most likely be.
What should we do? Tell the OP that his build is awesome? How does that benefit anyone?
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ciretose, you give me the impression that your idea of a useful character is a character who can do any one thing. Like... anything at all. If all it has is max ranks in Ride and Handle Animal, then you call it useful because it can tame horses.
I suppose "has a use" can technically be called "useful", but realistically, "doing something" is not good enough, "doing something awesome and/or meaningful" is what most of players want.
You keep talking and talking about people telling the OP his idea is badwrong fun, but noone did that. All we did was pointing out how weak his character will most likely be.
What should we do? Tell the OP that his build is awesome? How does that benefit anyone?
He didn't post looking for optimal. He asked for help with an idea.
Saying the idea won't work, because rogues suck, is unhelpful.
Again, it wouldn't bother me if it wasn't the same people who scream bloody murder when someone accuses them of cheese moves.
The OP didn't post a build. He posted a concept and asked for help.
If you don't want to help, and you just bash the idea, you are kind of being a dick and a bully.
One snide comment, fine. Making the thread about how his idea is bad, not fine.
Again, I ignored it until BY decided to cross the line with the last post, at which point I felt like the OP was being bullied.
If you don't like the idea, stay out of the thread.
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That plus some smokesticks and shadow strike would allow you to feint against people and give you concealment at the same time. Not perfect but combined with greater feint you'll get a full attack against an opponent denied his dex bonus giving you sneak attack.
Another option is to go for a grappler of some flavor. It would be very feat hungry but it is possible.
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Here is the concept as I understand it...
I am an average Joe, or at least I appear to be. Far from average though, I am quite quick and clever and nothing misses my notice. I read people like a book and always know the right thing to say to get my way, although I am never the center of attention. My nimble finger can get me what I need regardless of who has what I want. Through use of cunning and skill I can get into just about anywhere. My logical mind can figure out just about any lock, trap or device. Although completely mundane I am equally versed in the use of magical devices, whether utilizing or disabling. In combat I try to focus on not being hit with the belief that the best defense is not being where an attack is landing. When I do strike I take my time to find an opening and make sure it hurts.
Is this an unreasonable concept? Am I being to inflexible?
Let's focus on this.
He didn't post looking for optimal. He asked for help with an idea.
Saying the idea won't work, because rogues suck, is unhelpful.
Again, it wouldn't bother me if it wasn't the same people who scream bloody murder when someone accuses them of cheese moves.
The OP didn't post a build. He posted a concept and asked for help.
If you don't want to help, and you just bash the idea, you are kind of being a dick and a bully.
One snide comment, fine. Making the thread about how his idea is bad, not fine.
Again, I ignored it until BY decided to cross the line with the last post, at which point I felt like the OP was being bullied.
If you don't like the idea, stay out of the thread.
1- He didn't come looking for useless either.
2- The thread title is "how useless is a skill monkey Rogue?" so it's fair to assume the OP wants a answer to that question.
3- Lots of people offered help. He doesn't seem particullary interested in sneak attack, so "play a Bard" is a very solid advice. The OP may or may not listen, nobody is forcing him to do it.
4- Telling someone his idea is terrible is not bullying if his idea is indeed terrible. If someone says "I want to play a wizard who doesn't cast spells!" I'll tell that someone that his idea is terrible and won't make a very effective character. Is that bullying?
5- This forum allows me and everyone else to post in whatever thread they want, and that's exactly what we do! You have absolutely zero authority over that.
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Here is the concept as I understand it...
I am an average Joe, or at least I appear to be. Far from average though, I am quite quick and clever and nothing misses my notice. I read people like a book and always know the right thing to say to get my way, although I am never the center of attention. My nimble finger can get me what I need regardless of who has what I want. Through use of cunning and skill I can get into just about anywhere. My logical mind can figure out just about any lock, trap or device. Although completely mundane I am equally versed in the use of magical devices, whether utilizing or disabling. In combat I try to focus on not being hit with the belief that the best defense is not being where an attack is landing. When I do strike I take my time to find an opening and make sure it hurts.
Is this an unreasonable concept? Am I being to inflexible?
I'll say again let's focus on this not forum etiquette. Although I do get very annoyed by all the play a bard advice, when I started off by saying "How useless is a skill monkey rogue?" not a bard. Lord Twig has framed my concept in a less class specific way and shows why bard is not an option.
Improved Feint isn't a waste at lower level since a full attack isn't so useful for a rogue due to the lack of iterative attacks. Two weapon fighting isn't so useful either as you are better off hitting more often with one attack than missing with two because of penalties.
Going half elf or half orc wouldn't be a bad idea.
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If the only thing you have to add to the conversation is "You can't do it" that has been added in spades at this point.
But if you like, I can keep your argument in mind next time we are discussing something where people are accusing you of wrongbadfun.
You are absolutely able to post what you like. At a certain point you go from being helpful to being a jerk.
So you are correct, I have no authority to stop you. Just as you have no authority to tell the OP to stop trying to do something.
But if you think what I am doing, as one person, to several of you is obnoxious, you all have been doing this to the OP, as a group, for pages now.
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Improved Feint isn't a waste at lower level since a full attack isn't so useful for a rogue due to the lack of iterative attacks. Two weapon fighting isn't so useful either as you are better off hitting more often with one attack than missing with two because of penalties.
Going half elf or half orc wouldn't be a bad idea.
Only issue is you lose the stealth size modifier and bonuses to AC and attack from being small.
It isn't bad, but I think a small creature is better. And it actually makes a lot of sense for a skill monkey obsessive gnome as a concept.
Improved Feint isn't a waste at lower level since a full attack isn't so useful for a rogue due to the lack of iterative attacks. Two weapon fighting isn't so useful either as you are better off hitting more often with one attack than missing with two because of penalties.
Going half elf or half orc wouldn't be a bad idea.
Only issue is you lose the stealth size modifier and bonuses to AC and attack from being small.
It isn't bad, but I think a small creature is better. And it actually makes a lot of sense for a skill monkey obsessive gnome as a concept.
Yeah gnome would work too, halfling would work well too since they can get to 30 foot speed and have the low light you need.
Personally I don't think the +1 to AC is a huge deal in this case... there are plenty of other means to get a decent bonus still. That said the +1 to hit is another story and is useful.
Are we recommending STR over DEX yet? Because I would.