I have a bug to play one of these for PFS. I was looking for any kind of feed back the boards might offer to pull this off. I'm looking for a paladin heavy lvl progression to keep smite damage feasible, with enough ninja lvls to pack a real punch with sneak attack. I was thinking maybe ninja 8/ paladin 12 (ninja 4/ paladin 8 for PFS) but not quite sure what lvls to take and when.
Oath of vengeance for sure, and Elven curve blade probably (or scimitar and dervish dance). Any suggestions are welcome!
Yeah, I want sneak attack and vanish to add some bite to smiting. I have a gestalt ninja/ pal who is friggin awesome, and I was seeking a similar feel for PFS.
Man, if shadow dancer added sneak attack then I'd be there in a heart beat!
Nice try, but its definitely sneak attack and vanish that I'm looking for.
Paladin1/ ninja2/ paladin3/ ninja2/ paladin X is what I'm looking at (?). Human with a falchion (?).
Str: 15 (+1 @ 4)
Dex: 14
Con: 13 (+1 @8)
Int: 12
Wis: 8
Cha: 14 (+2)
1) power attack, weapon focus (falchion
2)
3) vanishing trick*, furious focus (?)
4)
5) extra lay on hands
6)
7) vital strike (?)
8) (ninja trick)*
9) (?)
10)
Traits?
Maybe even 10 for int and wis.
Can you link the umbral bloodline? I am unable to find it.
16, 14, 12, 12, 7, 14 (+2) = 20 pt buy and put all leveling points into cha, and buy the best str/ con belt as available?
Any feat/ trait ideas?
What about Paladin Shadowdancer?Terrible idea. Eldritch Heritage: Shadow (or Umbral) gets all the benfits of Shadowdancer for the same number of feats it takes to enter shadow dancer, and a Paladin has the Charisma.
But Shadowdancer HiPS is available at character level 6, Improved Eldritch Heritage not before level 11. That matters.
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How about:
Half Elf (Drow blooded for dark vision) with Highlander Trait (for stealth as class skill)
Paladin 1: Skill Focus: Stealth, Fey Foundling
Paladin 3: Power Attack
Paladin 5: Eldritch Heritage: Umbral
Paladin 7: Blind Fighting
Paladin 9: Combat Expertise
Paladin 11: Improved Eldritch Heritage: Umbral - Shadow Well (HiPS + more)
Paladin 13: Moonlit Stalker
Paladin 15: Moonlit Stalker Feint
Paladin 17: Greater Eldritch Heritage: Umbral
Paladin 19: Moonlit Stalker Master
Perhaps not the highest DPR but the visuals would be awesome.
But this is for PFS, which caps at 12. Anything you get at 11th level is of limited use.
Go ninja/paladin. That said, one level of shadowdancer is incredibly good.
So a religious lawful good warrior who is quite happy to sneak up on some one and stab them in the back
Interesting but not sure the two character classes really mix as they are so opposite to each other
So a religious lawful good warrior who is quite happy to sneak up on some one and stab them in the back
Interesting but not sure the two character classes really mix as they are so opposite to each other
Why not? Where does it say that a lawful person can't use stealth tactics? If he is smiting evil, then who says he can't sneak attack evil? I'm not building a paladin who picks pockets, I'm building an ambushing skirmisher who uses his skill for a holy purpose. A paladin who uses darkness against dark enemies.
If I take flurry of stars as my lvl 8 ninja trick, then by lvl 9 I am doing 1d3 + 2d6 + 10 + str x 4 that bypasses DR vs undead, outsiders, and evil dragons... Not too shabby.
I've always been a fan of the combo as well, I'd go Str > Con > Chr > Dex > Int > Wis. All level ups in strength. I'd probably go Paladin 2 / Ninja 2 / Paladin 2 or Paladin 4 / Ninja 2. But I wouldn't focus heavily on the stealth aspect, I'd be in heavy armor and use the dip for ki and sneak attack damage.
Can you throw up a sample build?
Hmm... I'd get 2 levels of Paladin to better survive the low leves, then another 2 of Ninja, for Vanishing trick.
From there I'd either go Paladin all the way or make it a Ninja 4/Paladin X.
For your stats, I'd go Str > Cha > Con = Dex > Int > Wis
I'm not home right now, so I have no access to my books or HeroLab, but I might be able to post a couple sample builds for you later.
How about:
Half Elf (Drow blooded for dark vision) with Highlander Trait (for stealth as class skill)
Paladin 1: Skill Focus: Stealth, Fey Foundling
Paladin 3: Power Attack
Paladin 5: Eldritch Heritage: Umbral
Paladin 7: Blind Fighting
Paladin 9: Combat Expertise
Paladin 11: Improved Eldritch Heritage: Umbral - Shadow Well (HiPS + more)
Paladin 13: Moonlit Stalker
Paladin 15: Moonlit Stalker Feint
Paladin 17: Greater Eldritch Heritage: Umbral
Paladin 19: Moonlit Stalker MasterPerhaps not the highest DPR but the visuals would be awesome.
How do you get 2 lvl 1 feats?
So I'm thinking of doing a mithril nodachi and mithril b-plate to enhance mobility and allow for evasion. May need to bump dex a bit to maximize the potential though, or I can tank AC because it will never be all that great and rely on mobility and skirmish around looking for that flank.
So a religious lawful good warrior who is quite happy to sneak up on some one and stab them in the back
Interesting but not sure the two character classes really mix as they are so opposite to each other
I personally love the addition of sneaky classes to paladins. First, sneak attack in general is not necessarily sneaky in itself, since it is often obtained from flanking. if you are facing dragons and 20 foot tall demons, then I think you can be excused from fighting one on one. Even if it is one on one with a human, paladin codes do not necessarily have to be opposed to sneaking. People often think of paladins as the party cops. With shadow dancer or rogue, they suddenly turn into the party SWAT team member.
Paladins are more defined by their code of conduct than the specific tactics used. They are meant to generally offer a fair chance for surrender and negotiations when possible, and defend the innocent when it is not. They are also expected to act without excessive amounts of force or inflict cruel or unusual punishments. Combined with a general respect for laws means that they act in a similar manner as law enforcement officers. If law enforcement use ambushes and other sneaky methods to protect civilians and insure that the conflict is resolved with minimal bloodloss, then this power is typically granted when within reason.
Remember, play lawful good, not lawful stupid. Even if paladins are based on Medieval ideals of chivalry, real knights did not necessarily have to run bravely into the meat grinder either. Try to take inspirations from other supposedly lawful good institutions and spice up your game.
Eldritch heritage seems really cool, but it is a super slow starter. 1 lvl dip into shadow dancer does nothing to progress smite or sneak attack, so I just can't find it in my heart to do it. If I take 1 lvl of rogue or a PrC that gives SA then it's an idea, but a BaB killer.
I am still a bit shaky on feat selection, traits, and items to help pull this off as well. But I am loving the ideas, keep em coming!
Does vital strike work with improved feint? Would that even be a worthwhile 3 feat investment for this build? Here is what I'm thinking:
1) paladin- power attack, combat expt
2) paladin
3) ninja- improved feint
4) ninja- vanish
5) paladin- extra LoH
6) paladin-
7) ninja- vital strike
8) ninja- flurry of stars
9) paladin- extra ki
10) ninja-
11) ninja- furious focus
12) paladin or ninja
I can treat the bluff/ feint like ijatsu strike for flavor.
Vital strike in itself is kind of a crappy feat IMO. Sure you can do double weapon damage, but it doesn't double sneak attack damage, you don't get to multiply strength by 2, you're limited to only one attack with it. To me it's only useful when you have to move and can't full attack. Since sneak attack is important to you, only 1 attack is exactly the opposite of what you want.
Though, yes, you could use improved feint and vital strike together as vital strike would use your standard action and improved feint would let you feint as a move action. This would still only result in getting one attack with sneak attack + str mod + double weapon dice. Also improved feint requires combat expertise, which you don't seem to have listed.
If you're really wanting to get the most of sneak attack you want to be two-weapon fighting with light weapons and sneak attack on full attacks as much as you can. This will often require flanking.
Combat expt was moved to lvl 1 as my human bonus feat. Since the character will be mobile more often than not, vital strike would be one more way to add damage or when I feint for the most part. Without going too crazy, I could get a wand of lead blades or enlarge person to do 4d8 weapon damage in addition to sneak attack and static damage. It's not a game changer, but it certainly adds tools to the box...
Biggest draw back is that it does eat three feats, but I haven't found a super awesomely more better supreme use for those extra feats anyway... I'm still open to suggestions though.
2d8 (10) + 10 (18 str + 4 power attack) = 20 dmg X2 for 2 attacks with diminishing iterative bab
Vs
4d8 (20) + 10 + 2d6 (6 from sneak attack) = 36 dmg at my highest BaB vs flat footed AC.
Traits= armor expert, armor master, dangerously curious, and fast talker. -2 ACP and +1 bluff and umd, bluff and umd is a class skill.
Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 7
Cha: 14 (+2)
Decided to go with full plate and a cold iron nodachi.
threatening defender traits gives you some AC use out of your Combat Expertise.
Maybe Deadly Aim if your going to take Flurry of Stars.
I had thought about threatening defender, but I am only taking combat expt for imp feint. Not a bad trade though, +1 AC for +1 ACP.
Maybe I could take deadly aim at 9 instead of extra ki?
I think that's about all I'm going to be able to bleed out of this board, so thanks a-plenty! I will consider this build as optimized as possible for what I want to do.
Traits= armor expert, armor master, dangerously curious, and fast talker.
Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 7
Cha: 14 (+2)
1) paladin- power attack, combat expt
2) paladin
3) ninja- improved feint
4) ninja- vanish
5) paladin- extra LoH
6) paladin-
7) ninja- vital strike
8) ninja- flurry of stars
9) paladin- deadly aim
10) ninja-
11) ninja- furious focus
12) paladin or ninja
One last question, on a scale of straight rogue - 10, how viable is this build? The main roles I will be filling are face, supernatural expert/ UMD monkey, and striker/ secondary tank with limited combat heals.
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I honestly can't evaluate the build very well. I've need watching since you suggested this in my other thread. It had captured my attention even if it doesn't fit the story.
My thoughts are thus:
-Have you thought about the Hellcat Stealth feat? Might improve your sneak ability and therefore your sneak attack opportunities.
-Deadly aim might be a good thing to pick up, but also think about your deep iterative attacks. In a situation where you need to land many attacks, you may miss those few points of to-hit.
Tsc... I forgot to post my builds... Oh well, I'll do it later tonight.
It's hard to rate how "viable" a character is, but I think ou build can more than hold its own. Paladin levels add a lot to your combat option, your Ki ppool allows you to make an extra attack, your saves ad overall defense will be pretty good and Vanishing Trick doesn't hurt either.
Improved Feint is unnecessary though, you're not as dependentant on Sneak Attack and even if you were, you can use Vanishing Trick for that. You could use Unsactioned Knowledge to get some Bard/Inquisitor spells that make you better at stealth and infiltration.
For traits, I'd recomend:
- Magical Knack
- Reactionary
- Indomitable Faith (to compensate for low Wis and Ninja levels)
- Armor Expert (although mithral makes this useless)
Ninjas already get UMD as a class skill and you have high Cha, so spending a trait only gives you a +1, hardly worth a trait. Same goes for Fast Talker.
Imp feint plus vital strike and lead blades gives me 4d8 + SA dice + static damage. It's almost like a mini- smaite attack. Early on its a great way to spend a full attack action because I don't have an iteration yet. Later on, vital strike is good for moving to a flank position to get the SA.
Deadly aim is for a ki flurry of stars + smite + sneak attack combo that I may need a prion of invis to set up. It will look like 3d3 at highest BaB -2, 1d3 iterative + 6x2 smite vs extra nasty opponent + str +2 x4 and 3d6 SA x4 for something like +80 dmg at lvl 12.
It's not supremely optimal damage, but it should be more consistent avg dmg then a straight paladin with lots of extra skills and tools in the box.
I consider Vital Strike to be meh a best. It requires too much investment to stay relevant, and you don't exactly need it, considering you have buff spells, Smite Evil, Divine Bond and Sneak Attack.
If ou want to boost your damage output, Improved Critical is probably better, depending on what weapon you use.
Nodachi, I figured if I am spending a move action to get off a standard attack for SA, I might as well vital strike to up my damage.
What would the set up you suggest look like?
I'm aiming for a keen, holy nodachi for maximum carnage.
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I hate to say it but Nodachi your concept is flawed. Paladins and Ninjas are not conpataible with one another. A Paladin would not use the Sneak attack class ablty as it goes aginist their core Ideals of honorable combat. A Paladin would never stab someone in the back for any reason. Paladins stab smite their opponents in the face and glory in it they would not stoop to disonorable tactics that are Ninjas bread and butter. The two classes just do not mesh with one another for any reason. The closest thing in the vein you are looking for is an 3.5 prestige class Slayer of Dominel. Now if you wanted to be an anto-paladin/Ninja that would go together very well. Just not a lawful Good Paladin paired with a Ninja.
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I am flavoring the feint maneuver as a type of ijatsu strike. I agree that poison use is completely wrong, but I am not using it. Don't get caught up with what your idea of a ninja is though. This character is a skilled oni- hunter who becomes one with the shadows to eliminate the threats therein. The character is honorable to the T, and unmercifull towards abominable evils and a bane to those who supports their cause. Think "stealth paladin", not quite so much "holy ninja".
I hate to say it but Nodachi your concept is flawed.
Careful now, sir... That sounds dangerously close to "you're having badwrongfun."
If Sneak Attack is used against Evil, I don't see it how it is any less honorable than a freaking greatsword to the neck.
Are Paladins forbidden to use Stealth? Are they forbidden to take enemies by surprise? Are they forbidden to use Feint and Dirty Trick maneuvers? Are they forbidden to use called shots?
Are they allowed to use tranquilizers to put their enemies to sleep or should they always use violence?
What's the problem of making a Batman-ish Paladin?
Tsc... Nevermind... I don't intend to turn this thread into a Paladin discussion, and I definitely don't want to participate in another one of those...
Anyway...
Byrdology, I have a few build ideas for you, but I won't be able to post them for at least a couple hours (I'm not on my PC right now). I suggest you go Ninja 2/Paladin X or at most Ninja 4/Paladin X.
Human is probably the best race choice because both Paladins and Ninjas are quite feat-starved, although Darkvision would be pretty cool for your character concept.
EDIT: BTW, what skills do you intend to focus on? You can probably have 4~5 maxed out and a few dips too.
I am not trying to be argumentative or stick stubbornly to the build I have outlined. If there are better options then what I have please show me what they are and how they work better.
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"If a life must be ended, do it swiftly and mercifully. If one can pass as a shadow, unseen, such a choice need never arise at all." - Norio Shinjitsu, ninja/paladin of Tsukiyo, LG god of darkness
Paladins come in many shapes and sizes. There are plenty of ways ninja/paladins can work.
It wasn't so long ago that people were declaring paladins shouldn't be using bows or other ranged weapons because "they weren't honorable". That interpretation would have left paladins of Erastil up the creek.