I generally run an open table meaning all rolls, mine and players, are on the table.
I recently had a player attempting to make a stealth check roll the dice, get a 1 and say "i dont think i stealthed well enough so i am going to try again."
to which i replied, "your character has no idea he rolled a 1 you have to keep that roll"
my mentality in this is that, especially in opposed checks, the character really has no idea, as a character, the full effect of their skill check. they do their best and thats it.
the player basically states that a character would know, for example they try to stealth through the trees roll a 1 step on a stick and stop moving to re stealth.
I understand the characters point on this... but when run that way everything is essentially a take 10 or 20 ... since anything less than 10 and the player says... ah... i try again.
Im wondering how other GMs rule this.
I personally stick by the 1 roll no kibitzing mentality, though my players then just go "ah... next round I will stealth again" tehn if the roll is like an 18 they expect to cary THAT roll through the next 4 rounds of stealthing. which is another problem entirely.
What ability is the character using to get a re-roll on a skill check ?
If it's one of the re-roll abilities that says the decision to re-roll must be made before the results are known, the only way such an ability can function is with player knowledge.
If he just wants another check, then he gets the result of the first check first, and then the second check.
Examples: Retrying a disable device check. Asking another party member to spot the forgery you made, and making a second if he spotted the first.
In your stealth case, if someone is observing while he made that first check, they heard the twig snap.
This is why many GMs ask you what your total stealth mods are, and then roll the check for you secretly. Same with forgery and disguise checks.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Perhaps you should run Stealth a bit differently than you've been running it. Take the following line in the stealth section:
Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you.
I would take this to mean that once there is a possibility of the person being detected, both the observer and the stealther make their rolls. Your other option is to have him roll stealth checks for each round of movement, but that would be quite tedious. Generally, if he declares he's going to stealth through the Forrest, have him make the roll at the time he might be noticed.
However, there is a second aspect that I would consider allowing them to re-roll. If the player wishes to find a hiding spot and remain stealthed while awaiting someone to come by, I would allow as many re-rolls as he has time for (or take 20), and once in that location as long as they remained stationary, they can keep that stealth roll.
So, in short: If the PC is moving, have him make the stealth roll when you make the perception roll, when stationary, he can re-try as much as he see's fit.
Dr Grecko, I would only let them take 20 or make a bunch of rolls and take the last roll.
I am not sure i would allow, roll till you get a 20. but thats just off the top of my head.
In this particular case the players were being attacked by enemies in the darkness (players could not see the hobgoblins that were attacking them because they could only see to the limits of their light while the hobgoblins could clearly see them in their torch light 100 feet away.
after the first volley of arrows a player hid behind an outcropping of rock and said I go stealth (player wanted to then sneak up on the enemy)
but when he rolled stealth he rolled a one and said "my stealth sucked so i hide again" or something in that general tone.
generally speaking if a player is going to do some stealthy stuff I let them roll one check and its the check they will use untill something happens that will cause a re-roll... but that is based on the idea that you have no idea of what your stealth check is in the first place.
kind of like a player saying "i stealth down the hallway" but you dont bother asking him to roll until its time for an opposed check.
problem is kibitzing players will take "ok when you get to the edge of this house make a stealth check, and a perception while your at it" as super player radar for 'i sense I am being observed by another stealthy NPC' and change his actions.
I really have to figure out how to get my players to stop kibitzing without being an ass about it.
I really hate when players do it but unfortunately not every player is mature enough to avoid it.
|
Unfortunately that's the reason why you make Appraise, Disable Device checks for traps, Disguise, some Perception, and Stealth checks for the players. Everything else is in their hands. It saves them the trouble of having to metagame.
IMG a stealth roll is good until the initial Perception check is made by an enemy at the maximum encounter distance. Once awareness is determined they will have to make a check each round they move.
--Vrock n'Roll
I generally run an open table meaning all rolls, mine and players, are on the table.
I recently had a player attempting to make a stealth check roll the dice, get a 1 and say "i dont think i stealthed well enough so i am going to try again."
to which i replied, "your character has no idea he rolled a 1 you have to keep that roll"
A problem you would not have if you followed the advice of the rulebooks, and made some rolls for the players yourself, in secret.
my mentality in this is that, especially in opposed checks, the character really has no idea, as a character, the full effect of their skill check. they do their best and thats it.
That's not just your mentality, that is the basic assumption the game provides, via the rules. Though opposed checks work a bit differently.
the player basically states that a character would know, for example they try to stealth through the trees roll a 1 step on a stick and stop moving to re stealth.I understand the characters point on this... but when run that way everything is essentially a take 10 or 20 ... since anything less than 10 and the player says... ah... i try again.
Im wondering how other GMs rule this.
Many skills actually have a mechanic for this sort of adjudication built-in. Depending how great the success, or how bad the failure (either a result way over or under the DC), the character may realize how badly he has screwed up, may be super-confident about his success (and with good reason) or may be very confident about his success when he has failed miserably.
I recommend reading all the skill entries again, closely. See where such ranges have been applied, and then feel free to apply them to other skills, as well. For instance, in the case of your PC's rolled 1 for Stealth, that failure is so complete that in my game that character would be certain he was the stealthiest man in the world, totally safe in his movements, all the while oblivious that he was standing naked in the center of the town square, with a flock of nuns photographing him. (That's an exaggeration, but you get the point.)
All that said, opposed checks are different. Since there really is no 20 = success/1 = failure for skill checks, your PC in this case needs to add the 1 to his skill mod and then see if the person who would otherwise detect him is lame enough to not see him, despite his lousy attempts.
Dr Grecko, I would only let them take 20 or make a bunch of rolls and take the last roll.
I am not sure i would allow, roll till you get a 20. but thats just off the top of my head.
Like I said, that scenario is for when he has time to really hide himself and remain stationary. It's the only scenario I'd consider letting them take 20.
In this particular case the players were being attacked by enemies in the darkness (players could not see the hobgoblins that were attacking them because they could only see to the limits of their light while the hobgoblins could clearly see them in their torch light 100 feet away.
after the first volley of arrows a player hid behind an outcropping of rock and said I go stealth (player wanted to then sneak up on the enemy)
but when he rolled stealth he rolled a one and said "my stealth sucked so i hide again" or something in that general tone.
There's a couple things wrong with that. First, he's deliberately meta-gaming the result in an attempt to get a more favorable outcome. Second, per RAW, if the hobgoblins already know they are behind the rocks, and can still see the area, the moment he steps out (stealth roll or not) he will be seen, as the stealth rules currently prohibit you from using stealth while being observed. Personally, I allow a bit of leeway to this rule, I allow the player to move from one concealed location to another using the same rules as "create a diversion to hide" (minus the bluff check)
generally speaking if a player is going to do some stealthy stuff I let them roll one check and its the check they will use untill something happens that will cause a re-roll... but that is based on the idea that you have no idea of what your stealth check is in the first place.
kind of like a player saying "i stealth down the hallway" but you dont bother asking him to roll until its time for an opposed check.
problem is kibitzing players will take "ok when you get to the edge of this house make a stealth check, and a perception while your at it" as super player radar for 'i sense I am being observed by another stealthy NPC' and change his actions.
I really have to figure out how to get my players to stop kibitzing without being an ass about it.
I really hate when players do it but unfortunately not every player is mature enough to avoid it.
I remember a time where I did the same thing your players did. Mostly with things like sense motive rolls. We as players knew something wasn't right, but our poor rolls with the fact that the GM was also rolling dice indicating he was bluffing made us keep pressing the issue and rolling more checks until we would finally catch him in a lie. Over time and with the help of my GM complaining about it, I realized that I was ruining the immersion of the game because of the apparent ESP my player had in scenarios like that.
For these stealth rolls, tell your problem players: "There's only one stealth roll that matters, and that's the roll you give me when you are being perceived. so I will roll one perception, and you will roll one stealth. That is, unless you want all my monsters to say, 'my perception sucked, so I look again' :)".
There is a solution to your problem - use a list of random rolls (like 1000 random d20 rolls) and then use them then the time comes. Like then a player is going stealth you jsut let him without any rolls. But then he is first observed (has to make opposed check) you note a number in the list (say it's 3) and then either roll or use next number in the list (say it's 12 - with mods he has been spotted). This way you still make open rolls but players don't know what those rolls are for or even if you made a roll yourself (i hope you don't let them look in your papers).
|
I've had GM's have us make 10 perception checks at the beginning of the event/session so that he would have the perception without asking for it he also did the same for sneaky types for acrobatics and stealth. Each character wrote these on a index card and one got crossed off whenever it was used. That way the players still rolled their checks, but it midigated metagaming
I recently had a player attempting to make a stealth check roll the dice, get a 1 and say "i dont think i stealthed well enough so i am going to try again."
to which i replied, "your character has no idea he rolled a 1 you have to keep that roll"
That's probably the wrong way to do it.
A skill roll isn't just a dice roll. It represents the character spending some time trying to do something.In this case he's presumably trying to move silently. But if he rolls a 1 he steps on a stick or something and makes a noise. The character probably knows he stealthed badly, but it's too late now; he's already failed and drawn attention.
I've had GM's have us make 10 perception checks at the beginning of the event/session so that he would have the perception without asking for it he also did the same for sneaky types for acrobatics and stealth. Each character wrote these on a index card and one got crossed off whenever it was used. That way the players still rolled their checks, but it midigated metagaming
I do something like this... I have them give me 3 perceptions and 3 of each save before a game session.
but i only use these in out of combat situations where the player basically didnt know the roll was made, like to see that guy following them through the city, or to resist the charm spell cast on them from the shadows.
basically I do this in order to allow players access to their hero points at important moments.