So, my session before last(30/03/13) the PCs in my campaign got to the lovely part where they had to rescue Ameiko from the Glassworks, and hopefully stop her from being taken to Thistletop where Nualia would sacrifice her when she refused to join with them. The group decided instead of going and sending a scouting party immediately that morning, they went to visit their Fighter who was in the forge(he got 250gp worth of iron ingots to smith with from saving the town. He's a mercenary, and I was sort-of caught off-guard myself when he demanded "payment" for doing what the town guard could not) when the Halfling came and showed the note that Tsuto left for Ameiko. Normally the book says "after sunset", but I honestly feel that's a bit too late for when they can sneak out of the Smuggler's Cave exit and be out of Sandpoint sight as they leave, especially if the tunnel leads a good 2k+ feet outside of the city.
The Fighter in the forge was "occupied" with his 8 hours a day of work on his Masterwork Greatsword, and the rest of the party(minus the Barbarian who didn't make it for that session) decided to wait for him, making it about 2-3PM that day. Now, I would've seen "sunset" as around 5PM-ish personally, but I wanted to make it sort-of a "you didn't make haste, so he'll make a hasty retreat". So, as of the time they discovered the Catacombs of Wrath, Tsuto and his gobbies would've been back in Thistletop, thus starting the one week timer.
After having gone through with this, I've been on the fence about how I feel. I'm glad I did it since it's a rather large group (Fighter/Oracle, Rogue, Monk, Ranger, Alchemist, Barbarian), and that would mean the fight against Nualia's allies would be slightly more epic with Tsuto in tow and with them having a sizable group to go after them(I was thinking pairs. Such as Bugbear + Orik, Lyrie + Tsuto, and then Nualia and her Yeth as per normal). I also do not like it, because they're sort-of pussyfooting around in some spots, and it honestly seems like they'd be a little late for saving, and just on time for her coffin fitting.
I say make them live with Ameiko's loss. And have people blame the mercenary fighter/weaponsmith for insisting on payment. Then have the town turn on them. Charge extra for food and equipment and the like. And when the second chapter starts with the murders? Have it pinned on the Fighter and the Sheriff basically says "you either solve this, or we hang you as being in cahoots with the murderer."
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I'm not quite as brutal as Tangent101, but I'm in agreement with him on almost all the points:
- You told them that Ameiko had been kidnapped. In any such situation, time is of the essence. The fighter refused to go until he'd put in a full day's work at the forge. That's bad. That's going to make the townsfolk HATE him. HE is no longer a hero of Sandpoint. I don't want to turn this into yet another eternal alignment thread, but if there's a "G" anywhere in his alignment it would merit a warning. (If he's neutral, it's not an issue in my mind.)
- Compounding the problem, the rest of the group refused to go without him. What a bunch of layabout good-for-nothings! Absolutely agree with Tangent101 -- all items now cost 125-150% of normal. Rooms are mysteriously "booked" so they have to camp instead of staying in an inn. The party gets a reputation for being "only in it for the money", and "only interested in themselves". This should bite them throughout the campaign, unless they make amends.
In short, I'm a firm believer in letting the PCs do what they want to do, but I'm also a firm believer in consequences for those actions.
I'd have Tsuto leave with Ameiko, leave some goblins just because killing gobbies is fun, and leave some kind of clue pointing to Thistletop. Maybe in her struggle with Tsuto, Ameiko managed to tear one page out of the journal and they find a crumpled paper on the floor. Maybe Erylium mentions Thistletop during her tirade at the PCs when they invade her temple. Enough to keep the campaign going, but not the full journal handout.
As for Ameiko, I'd give them enough time that if they drop everything to rescue her, she's still savable at Thistletop. Maybe 24-48 hours. Write down a time limit you think is reasonable. Track it. Enforce it.
In short, this is all a long-winded way of saying, "They screwed up. Punish them a bit. But not so much it totally derails the campaign."
They still have to WANT to save Sandpoint, and if you make the town TOO hostile it's going to be a train wreck.
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It sounds as like the fighter is taking Sandpoint's citizens' good will towards them for granted. If he's going to slap them down after they show him their gratitude, he should find a much more frosty reception than the rest of the PCs. If Ameiko dies, then all of the PCs are going to be in trouble for letting one of the town's favorite daughters die when they could have done something other than make a sword.
I'd say that you should show the consequences of waiting. Have him kill her, and set fire to the Glassworks to cover his escape. He'll leave for Thistletop with his goblin entourage. The PCs can get involved by fighting the fire, and stopping it from consuming more of the town. If they explore the Glassworks, they'll find both Lonjiku and Ameiko dead, and should be able to track Tsuto before he reaches Thistletop. They deal with him en route, and have the choice whether to return to the caves to deal with the Catacombs of Wrath or move on to Thistletop.
Hopefully, they choose wisely and return to deal with the threat beneath Sandpoint.
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The funny thing is, I've a PC almost like that. He calls the local sheriff "Sheriff Useless" (I forgot to account for them when they were fighting skeletons so he sat out that combat. My mistake, but the player ran with it.) It is getting tossed back in their faces though - they let Ripnugget live, and took alive Tsuto, Lyrie, and Nualia... so I had Ripnugget take the remnants of his forces to spring Nualia while the PCs returned to Thistletop to kill Mal and the giant crab.
They appeared just in time to see Hemlock behead Ripnugget before being shot down by the warchanter (who they also let live). A quick healing spell saved the sheriff and a couple town guard (four others died however). First words out of Hemlock's mouth when he saw the PC were "Oh, it's you. Guess I'm not so 'useless' after all. Cleaned up your mess." ;)
(Admittedly the player was for killing Ripnugget and not taking prisoners, but it was still a fun scene.)
The character? Is a blacksmith and weaponsmith. ;)
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There's a simple way to direct the PCs to Thistletop. If they either go to the Glassworks and fight leftover goblins... they can question a goblin for info on where Tsuto went, assuming there's no rangers among the group. And yes, give them the chance to save Ameiko. Have her even be grateful... and when she finds out that the weaponsmith was all "I want money to do this" then she no longer offers HIM free room and board. Everyone else? Sure. He pays though.
Some diplomacy checks among other PCs should be enough for them to talk their way out of higher prices, especially if they suggest they needed the extra firepower of the merc. And have the townsfolk basically dismiss him and say they don't need his type.
In short, the player screwed up a good situation in the town with his actions. Do not let him just walk away from this. This is the stuff that Alignment Violations are made of (even if I don't use alignments in my own games). So make that player's character have to live with his actions by learning people aren't so forgiving.
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Have NPCs react like real people.
And ask the barbarian what they would have done upon hearing that Ameiko was in danger. It'd be a shame if that PC got thrown under the bus if they actually wouldn't have fallen into bystander syndrome. Heck, giving that character a headstart could illustrate how differently NPCs view active heroes compared to "not now, busy crafting".
He's a Lawful Neutral character, IIRC. So technically he's not wrong in what he did, but he's not right either. I even asked the other players "You're gonna just wait for him to be finished in the Forge before you even go to check out the Glassworks?" "Yup!" I then proceeded to leaf through the book and checked on the 'when does Tsuto leave' part. I figured that if there was no threat to him, and if he had've gotten away with killing everyone in the factory, killed his father and knocked out his sister, it was time to take Ameiko and GTFO. Get while the gettin's good.
Fast forward to them then walking through the rooms and finding nothing but broken dogslicers, the gory scene where Longjuku was covered in molten glass, then going through all of Tsuto's notes in the basement office. I had him leave his book there, and sort-of give them clues. With the mentions of "Thistletop" and "Ripnugget", I figured that was enough to point them there. However, it was a comment one of my PCs(the Fighter, at that), that made me almost burst out laughing. It was SO hard not to say anything.
"Huh. So Tsuto has an unnatural love for his sister, and she wants to be a half fiend."
I was so glad I wasn't drinking anything or else classic spit take would've ensued. I was looking at him like he had two heads while they explained everything to everyone. I just couldn't.
So I'm thinking a week to have her be killed off, but that might be too long to make it "urgent", so maybe four days? Day one already passed by thanks to the Quasit, and I'm thinking maybe another if they have issues with Ripnugget and his forces. If so, throw in another rough encounter to push them to day four if they don't do it themselves, maybe? Sort-of skin of their teeth thought.
Not biting at the chance to save a kidnapped NPC is pretty odd, especially when it's obviously a part of the storyline. At that point I'd probably close the book and ask them what they'd like to do. They could stick around in Sandpoint or move on someplace else.
Eh, that's what happens when the heroes aren't heroes.
The session ended literally after they killed Erylium and went back to town, selling off her dagger. They are going to save her, it's fairly obvious as one PC was talking to me after the session about her. He wanted to get some "meta-game knowledge" about what happened with Ameiko. He's not one of those guys who are like "hells yea, know everything about the game now, rawr!" He's fairly new to Tabletop RPGs, and wants to try and steer the group in the right direction. I gave him a few hints of what he COULD suggest, after all they learned, especially from Tsuto's notes, so I feel next session is gonna be a rush to Thistletop. At least I bloody well hope so.
It's good to hear that one of your players is motivated to save her. If he can rally the others, the drama could play out very well.
Good luck!
Well, the Rogue definitely wants to enjoy the story aspects, it seems. The Barbarian who was away, I told him about their decisions to not go immediately, and he was not pleased as well. I'll let the players themselves fill him in officially, but I don't think he'll be happy that the rest of the group didn't even send in the Rogue and Ranger to check the place out on their own before everyone went in.
Question: Is the week as stated in the book too long? Feels it to me. Four feels about right, but I don't want to be like "tick tock, goes the clock, til Nualia kills The Bard."
A week does seem awfully long, but I hesitate to go against the book, since (if you're playing AE) it's been playtested a multitude of times, and that's probably an agreed-upon "reasonable amount of time".
I would have set it shorter, but it sounds like at least some of your PCs are on board with rescuing her, so I'd stick with a week, just in case they get themselves into serious trouble in Thistletop.
A week seems like a long amount of time.
If you have never worked field logistics.
The larger the military force, the longer it takes to get them properly mobilized. The less naturally inclined the force is to organization, the longer it takes as well. Goblins...
Are not naturally inclined to organization.
I'd say a week would be a goodly amount of time, seeing that at least some of the PCs are intent on saving Ameiko. Don't forget, Tsuto wants to turn his sister. So they'll be torturing her or maybe even using charm spells on her. (Which might be interesting, they find her cell and she's in denial because "that nice girl Nualia just wants to make things right" - drive in the knife and twist it a tad because if they'd saved her first thing then Nualia wouldn't have had Ameiko charmed.)
And Nualia isn't stupid. Having Ameiko on her side? That's a good thing. Ameiko owns the Glassworks now. If the PCs hadn't deactivated the Well? Then she can start by kidnapping several townsfolk using Ameiko as a trojan horse to draw people in, sacrifice them to her Goddess, and empower the pool further.
250gp of iron ingots? They can't be carried around conveniently, he must keep them somewhere. It wouldn't be surprising if a member of the local Sczarni was watching him work at the forge, and then followed him to see where he's storing the materials. At that point the value of having the support of the local community might become clearer... when he's trying to track down who made off with his iron. "You want our help? Well we want yours first..."
A week seems like a long amount of time.
If you have never worked field logistics.
The larger the military force, the longer it takes to get them properly mobilized. The less naturally inclined the force is to organization, the longer it takes as well. Goblins...
Are not naturally inclined to organization.
The question I was answering was, "How long before they do away with Ameiko?" rather than, "How long before you can mobilize goblins?"
Maybe not the question asked, but the one I answered...
...If they don't make it there until day three, I'm totally making this happen. Lyrie should be able to charm out Ameiko, and have her be Nualia's new helper, hm?
I love this community. So many ideas. I want to just bring you all to my work and have a discussion about GM stuff for this AP, so I can pick your brains for ideas.
The thing with these time limits imposed in the adventure paths is that (for the most part) I find it's good to have the PCs arrive in the nick of time. It'd take a bit of work, but having a Thistletop encounter at the sacrificial altar with Ameiko about to be sacrificed will let the PCs redeem themselves somewhat (perhaps not the CR10 encounter with everyone in Thistletop, though... but with such a large group, it's a possibility? :P).
As for the Glassworks, I think it makes enough of a statement of Goblin Mischief alone and that Tsuto is fairly compelling and would be cool to save for later. That said, Thistletop is full of compelling characters, and I think you might have jumped the gun a bit having Thistletop being empty. Better to have them fleeing the scene and lose them in the tunnels, perhaps?
And do the said PCs feel guilty for their negligence? I'd not let word get out right away about their inactivity. The townsfolk arent psychic. They'll only know that Ameiko dissapeared and Bethana would likely keep quiet on the PCs behalf. Of course if they get Ameiko killed with their laziness, thats the time to really lay on the guilt.
My two cents. Though the Charm Person idea is pretty great.
That said, Thistletop is full of compelling characters, and I think you might have jumped the gun a bit having Thistletop being empty. Better to have them fleeing the scene and lose them in the tunnels, perhaps?
Uh, I think you mean the Glassworks for this part? It would've been nice to have a fight in the tunnels, but I didn't think of that at the time. Plus, they really took their time searching the Glassworks. Could've been better had they been faster.
A little bonus: My PC who was Forging isn't going to be there this up coming session, so I'm thinking I might have him be implicated as a red herring when the group is gone to Thistletop.
Even better, once the Skinsaw Man starts leaving bodies, have the notes be made out to him. I'm not sure which is better and creepier... Wrath... or Love. Heh heh heh.
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In my current campaign the party rescued Ameiko from the glassworks but let Tsuto escape. Despite the leads from the glassworks it was a struggle to motivate the party into high tailing to thistletop (they were planning a defence of the town). My Tsuto returned and with the help some goblins and some alchemists fire broke into the Rusty Dragon and re-kidnapped his sister. The party hit thistletop in hot pursuit, with a renewed sense of urgency...
Even better, once the Skinsaw Man starts leaving bodies, have the notes be made out to him. I'm not sure which is better and creepier... Wrath... or Love. Heh heh heh.
Envy
I'm probably not going to go that far, since it's already established he's all over the Catfolk monk. The group is having a fun time laughing at him and calling him a Furry.
Dooo iiiit! Go for the nail that sticks up! :)
Besides. If your group is laughing at the fop for being "a furry" then they would probably think of Aldern when the fun starts. Going after Mr. Mercenary allows so many plot twists as they look frantically to determine which townsfolk is actually after him.
I still think that Lust is the most evil thing to pull on the guy. After all, Aldern could have been faking his interest in the catfolk...
Wrath would probably work better though. (It's what I'm using on my group's blacksmith. Though it fits because he's... ahem... not exactly pleasant! Or to put it another way, I'm surprised his Charisma is a 10. He plays it as a 6!)
That said, Thistletop is full of compelling characters, and I think you might have jumped the gun a bit having Thistletop being empty. Better to have them fleeing the scene and lose them in the tunnels, perhaps?Uh, I think you mean the Glassworks for this part? It would've been nice to have a fight in the tunnels, but I didn't think of that at the time. Plus, they really took their time searching the Glassworks. Could've been better had they been faster.
A little bonus: My PC who was Forging isn't going to be there this up coming session, so I'm thinking I might have him be implicated as a red herring when the group is gone to Thistletop.
Perhaps I should rephrase. What I -meant- to say is that Thistletop is pretty crowded, and Tsuto wouldn't necessarily be missed there, as deserving of more screentime as he is.
Definately agree with implicating Tsuto in the skinsaw plot somehow. I tried the same with Nualia after one of my PCs helped the CE demon worshiper escape, but I didn't play the adventure so well (first time GMing and over IM no less). My PCs didnt want to chase red herrings, or really investigate at all. As soon as they heard about the sanitarium (back in the 3.5 edition when it was absolutely bloody empty) they were led by the nose through the entire adventure. I really wish I'd had something to spice it up with (such as Tsuto).
You DO have a point about Tsuto, I suppose. I could always have him run off to Magnamar and warn Ironbriar about the PCs, or join Xanesha in her fight, and level him up a bit more. Monk and Rogue evenly.
Though Tsuto in the Sanitarium would make sense. Hearing of Nualia's death, he looks for ways to resurrect his fallen love, stops in the Sanitarium, and meets the Necromancer underneath.
Though I could always have Tsuto and Lyrie wander off, since Lyrie's epic in love with him, as shown from her belongings. Have Nualia know she was in trouble and send Tsuto off to prepare her coming back, since he was already getting money from his father via blackmailing. Though idk yet where I'd put them as an encounter. Hmm...
I was going to put this in the Nualia as an AntiPaladin thread but I think it works here a little better, since it involves Tsuto as well.
What if you were to find Tsuto and Nualia in her room, the two sharing a passionate embrace before he was to "leave", the Yeth Hound on guard and he howls first, alerting them and fearing the party, and then you have all three descend on a group of 6 level 4 PCs? Would that be a little TOO much, or would it be a fair challenge to end the book on?
Considering that Nualia's armor class would be significantly worse? Though she could remain out of the combat while putting on her armor for 5 or 10 rounds and THEN intercede.
I didn't say sexual enticement. Could be the beginnings. He's just starting to unstrap her armor, for example. Something that would take a full round to replace before she starts. Or, she's casting her spells as the PCs enter, and Tsuto looks upset. DC Sense Motive check lets the PCs know he's got blue balls from them bothering the two.
Now where's the fun of that? :P ;) You were wondering if the encounter would be "too difficult." Well, if Nualia's armor class is seven points worse because she's out-of-armor, then the toughness factor declines. And seeing they have no maneuverability...
One other thing to consider. The Yeth Hound would probably be stationed outside the room. So have the hound attack with a howl and attack. Three rounds later a disheveled Tsuto comes out (quite angry at being interrupted) and then shouts a warning to Nualia. She can buff herself and then come out to attack a couple rounds after that without armor. Of course, that also assumes one other thing: they didn't go to the chapel first.
If the Chapel Yeth have already attacked and howled, then immediately have Nualia's Yeth Hound scamper off to reach the combat (and attack from behind). Tsuto could help Nualia get her armor on and then together they attack the party probably five rounds after that.
Isn't the chapel on a completely different floor than them? If so, I'll have them armor up anyway, and Tsuto still disheveled and annoyed looking, and Nualia behind a few rounds after. He'll be outside with his bow drawn and speaking something about how they interrupted his special time with her, as he and the Yeth Hound hold off the PCs until Nualia's ready to join in.
The bedrooms are on the same floor as the chapel. Nualia doesn't sleep downstairs. There's no bed there. That's just where she broods - er, I mean plots out the next attack on Sandpoint! Yeah, that's it, she's not an emo crybaby or anything... *shiftyeyes*
I actually saw Nualia as more of a maniacal, filled with hatred sort of person. I don't see her as an emo crybaby at all. I see maybe she started like that before she lost her kid, but after that, I could see it as her snapping. Taking her "Mothers brand", organizing the Sandpoint raid. It's of a woman so confused, so fueled by rage and revenge that she sees nothing else but fires.
If you're a Whovian, think of The Master, but replace the beating of the drums with a burning fire. She always hears the cracks of the flames, and feels her removal of the "Celestial Taint" will end the incessant crackling. My view anyway.
I didn't see her as emo either to be honest. But one of the players runs a "grouch" of a character who basically insulted Nualia's name after reading her journal by calling her an emo. ;) So I have fun poking fun at her now.
So I have a new, minor issue. The PCs have just found Ameiko in the jail cells. The NPC Inquisitor I have with them has promised to keep her safe while the PCs can make sure the threat of Thistletop is deat with. They have killed(critical finishes are awesome, btw) Orik, Lyrie and Bruthazmus, but haven't explored the Dungeon Second level. I'm reluctant to give them a reason to explore everywhere in the areas aside from "there are areas you still haven't been to yet!" for fear of alerting them to stuff.
I was thinking if they packed it up, went back to Sandpoint and returned to Thistletop later in the day(they slept in Ripnugget's room after a violent encountere where Lyrie lead them to the lusting Bugbear, and then was reinforced by Orik and Lyrie), that the two would have run off to Magnamar to join the Cult. Am I wrong with this thought pattern, or should I give my PCs an out-of-game reason to keep exploring? They have dealt with everything on Level 1Dungeon aside from the secret door leading to Level 2, as they chased Lyrie the opposite way.
Have Ameiko ask if they found Nualia yet. Simple as that. Ameiko would know, and thus would be able to remind the others. And have Ameiko claim she can take care of herself - she's an Aristocrat 1/Bard 3/Rogue 1, so she actually can.
Thus it's in-game, they're reminded of why they're there (partly), and they can make an informed decision.
Amusingly enough, I was all set for giving my PCs a reason NOT to continue... they were mostly out of spells. But they insisted on continuing to search (+1 Zeal, anyone? ^^) and it was only AFTER Nualia that they took a break.
At which point Ripnugget's crew (as Ripnugget and the Warchanter both survived, Ripnugget unconscious and the warchanter negotiating Ripnugget's survival) stripped Thistletop of everything on the 1st floor that had been forgotten or not gotten to, failed to get past the Shadows (thus giving a body to warn the PCs of the (now four) Shadows), and left Thistletop.
While the PCs took out Mal and the Crab (which they brought back for a huge crab-bake for the town), Ripnugget and the survivors sprung Nualia from prison (the PCs took Tsuto, Nualia, and Lyrie prisoner, and let Orik go), though Ripnugget died in doing so.
I had Ripnugget go to the death, since it was the Rogue and the Ranger left. Had he not been downed the next turn, he would've stolen the Warchanter's potion and brought himself back from death and most likely given a TPK to my group.
Would you say that Ameiko would know of Nualia because when she was brought back to Thistletop, she could've woken up once or twice before Tsuto knocked her out again, and saw him and her with Lyrie in the background? I was going to have Nualia sacrifice Ameiko that day(they took the night to rest/level because they were out of spells, had about 3 charges left in a Wand of CLW, and for that reason of lack of healing remaining they want to head back), but since they found Ameiko early in the morning, Nualia's still in Level 2, researching about the area, knowing there's more she hasn't found, due to the pull of Malfy.
According to the Runelords Anniversary Edition, Tsuto revealed to Ameiko that "...he and several other mercenaries were led by Nualia and hinted that she's got big plans for Sandpoint's future. Tsuto warned Ameiko that she didn't want to be in town when those plans came through and offered her a chance to join his group at Thistletop...."
So even if she didn't wake (and she was only at -2 HPs and stabilized so she might have started to come to) she is still aware of Nualia... and that Nualia wants to do something nasty to Sandpoint. So she may very well urge the players to continue on and may even offer to make her way back to town on her own to call in the cavalry just in case.
Ah! I completely forgot about that part. Yes, I could have the Inquisitor and Ameiko leave, then and let the PCs know they're fine and good to go. Thanks for reminding me of this little portion.