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Citizen Betts, I notice that you, too, found the capitalized "THEY" a bit telling.Emphasizing that if they find it ok why not for anyone else? racism, they are as bad as what they gripe about. Any thing but equal is racist, and you all seem to support that.
Because when you emphasize "they" you emphasize "they" are not like "you"
Which is telling.
To be blunt, you aren't asking for equality. You are asking "them" to be like "you".
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That is an act happening to a person, not a spoken word. no real comparison thereif you are ok with it being said by one be ok with it being said by all.Like hell. Mrs Gersen can jump my bones as she pleases. Some skank in a bar tries it, and I dump her on the floor. This shouldn't be that hard to understand.
"They" aren't people...
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I wonder if heterosexual cisgendered white males are allowed to be angry at being insulted in any way by any member of any other group or if they have things so good for them in life (due to what they are) that they have absolutely zero right to be offended :-PSeveral people, including me, have already brought up examples like "redneck" or "cracker", which would apply to the appropriate subgroup of heterosexual cisgendered white males.
And of course, insults not relating to race, gender or sexuality could be offensive to anyone.
Actually, any insult should be offensive to anyone ;-)
IIRC, you wrote that people that could be categorized as "rednecks" could use redneck in a non-derogative way to speak of themselves (similar to the N-word being used by black people).
My question was more what if a non-redneck person uses the redneck epithet ? And what about using it as an insult ?
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One side of my family is from West Virginia. They announced we are having a "Redneck Family Reunion".
If you don't know them, and you call them a redneck, they will likely kick your ass.
So yes.
And if they had a fit over someone simply saying redneck under any circumstance simply for being the wrong color it would be the same. The word being said is really the issue not who they are saying it to.
You've read Harlan Ellison, right?
No -- always thought of him as a screenwriter rather than an author.
P.S. To Comrade Anklebiter: I have, of course, read the other Ellison!|
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And if they had a fit over someone simply saying redneck under any circumstance simply for being the wrong color it would be the same. The word being said is really the issue not who they are saying it to.One side of my family is from West Virginia. They announced we are having a "Redneck Family Reunion".
If you don't know them, and you call them a redneck, they will likely kick your ass.
So yes.
No.
Calling someone a redneck, hick, white trash etc...is a personal insult that dehumanized them, in the same way calling someone a jackass, retard, etc...dehumanizes them.
You are functionally saying "You are less than a fully valuable member of humanity, as you are just a (insert insult here)"
Which is why you probably get upset when people say they think you are racist.
Which is why there was so much commentary on you putting "THEY" in caps, as it implies "THEY" are not "you" and you have inherently greater value.
What would the basis of that greater value that allows "you" to be separate from "THEY"...
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And if they had a fit over someone simply saying redneck under any circumstance simply for being the wrong color it would be the same. The word being said is really the issue not who they are saying it to.One side of my family is from West Virginia. They announced we are having a "Redneck Family Reunion".
If you don't know them, and you call them a redneck, they will likely kick your ass.
So yes.
No.
Calling someone a redneck, hick, white trash etc...is a personal insult that dehumanized them, in the same way calling someone a jackass, retard, etc...dehumanizes them.
You are functionally saying "You are less than a fully valuable member of humanity, as you are just a (insert insult here)"
Which is why you probably get upset when people say they think you are racist.
Which is why there was so much commentary on you putting "THEY" in caps, as it implies "THEY" are not "you" and you have inherently greater value.
What would the basis of that greater value that allows "you" to be separate from "THEY"...
Not at all. i am a mason, i have brothers of every color and every nationality. all are equally my brother. YOu are right in that conversation they are black and i am not, but that has NO bearing on the value of either. People are basically the same and that is why i want us to move beyond petty obsessions over words and outright attempt to keep racial divisions going.
I was browsing through tv shows on youtube for another thread and came upon this possibly on-topic clip from All in the Family.
Many awesome highlights, but my faves is at 6:28.
You've read Harlan Ellison, right?No -- always thought of him as a screenwriter rather than an author.
P.S. To Comrade Anklebiter: I have, of course, read the other Ellison!
Take a look at Deathbird Stories and Strange Wine, those are both short story collections. (I'm not entirely sure that Harlan Ellison every wrote a novel length prose piece.)
Cordwainer Bird, though, there's an awesome author for you! :P
Cordwainer Smith, as if that even was his real name! Have you read James Triptee Jr.?
(Okay, I'll cop to it: every single thread I post in turns into a book thread somehow. :P)
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Cordwainer Smith, as if that even was his real name! Have you read James Triptee Jr.?
(Okay, I'll cop to it: every single thread I post in turns into a book thread somehow. :P)
Oh I dunno. There was that one we turned into a conversation about music.
Alpha Ralpha Boulevard!
What do you guys like better as a pseudonym: James Tiptree, Jr., or f&+@in' Raccoona Sheldon?
Also, in an effort to be offensive, you are all stupid.
Like a goblin, your insults don't carry a lot of weight.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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The last time I checked the constitution of the United States not only grants you freedom to say offensive things, it protects that right. However nowhere in the constitution does it say you have the right to not be offended. The only time speech is restricted is if it impinges on the rights of others or is considered traitorous in a time of war. The constitution allows us to be bigots, jerks, offensive aholes and any other kind of idiot you can think of. The beautiful thing about the constitution is that it also gives me the right to walk away and never associate with you again. It allows me to chose to shop somewhere else if you have offended me. And most importantly it gives me the right to tell you that you have offended me. All of the freedoms we have in the US are wonderful, but somewhere along the way we began to take them for granted. And we forgot the most important thing about our freedoms, they are a responsibility. I view political correctness as another way government and large organizations strip us of that responsibility by telling us what to say, how to say it and when. People don't want to face the repercussions of their actions. When you say something offensive you may have to pay a heavy price. Maybe you just told an offensive joke and the person overhearing it is the same person who is conducting your job interview tomorrow. The price of freedom is responsibility and it seems to me that more and more Americans are unwilling to pay that price. They will find there are a set of entirely different repercussions associated with giving up your freedoms. And they will find when it is too late.
No, the price of your freedom is having to put up with how someone else misuses theirs. If you want to paint your house the color you want, you have to accept that some idiot is going to paint his flamingo pink. If you want to say what you want, you have to be willing to have idiots (and that's everyone but you) say what they want. People are all for THEIR freedom but balk at giving it to everyone else.
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BNW,
Yes, you can say what you like, but if you're being an a@+~##*#, I also have the right to point out you're being an a@*&*@*$. If you don't want to be called an a%&%+%@#, you know what the simplest way to do that is? Don't say things that make you sound like an a%*#!@+*. Why are you trying to censor my free speech, instead?
EDIT: To be clear, I'm not calling you an a!$&@*+%, just pointing out that saying "you shouldn't be offended" is no different from the dreaded PC police bullshit.
I wonder if heterosexual cisgendered white males are allowed to be angry at being insulted in any way by any member of any other group or if they have things so good for them in life (due to what they are) that they have absolutely zero right to be offended :-P
We're left to feel offended for other people's sakes, mostly ;)
The last time I checked the constitution of the United States not only grants you freedom to say offensive things, it protects that right. However nowhere in the constitution does it say you have the right to not be offended. The only time speech is restricted is if it impinges on the rights of others or is considered traitorous in a time of war. The constitution allows us to be bigots, jerks, offensive aholes and any other kind of idiot you can think of. The beautiful thing about the constitution is that it also gives me the right to walk away and never associate with you again. It allows me to chose to shop somewhere else if you have offended me. And most importantly it gives me the right to tell you that you have offended me. All of the freedoms we have in the US are wonderful, but somewhere along the way we began to take them for granted. And we forgot the most important thing about our freedoms, they are a responsibility. I view political correctness as another way government and large organizations strip us of that responsibility by telling us what to say, how to say it and when. People don't want to face the repercussions of their actions. When you say something offensive you may have to pay a heavy price. Maybe you just told an offensive joke and the person overhearing it is the same person who is conducting your job interview tomorrow. The price of freedom is responsibility and it seems to me that more and more Americans are unwilling to pay that price. They will find there are a set of entirely different repercussions associated with giving up your freedoms. And they will find when it is too late.
I would suggest you check out the infrastructure of this country with respect to the old "I can choose not to shop there/associate with you/you can always move" chestnut. It was perhaps true once, but increased wealth disparity and the metamorphesis of higher education and the state of employment overall have changed this over my lifetime.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I would suggest you check out the infrastructure of this country with respect to the old "I can choose not to shop there/associate with you/you can always move" chestnut. It was perhaps true once, but increased wealth disparity and the metamorphesis of higher education and the state of employment overall have changed this over my lifetime.
Yes Freehold I can see how you would believe that. Yet that is the very opinion that has led to the decay of our society. It is the very philosophy that has lead to a lazy population that doesn't want to take advantage of available opportunities- it wants those opportunities given to it rather than earned.
In 2005 I moved to another state 6 hours from my home with no job, no knowledge of the local area, no home and just the belongings in my Honda Civic. Yes somehow I managed to survive. I lived out the old chestnut to which you are referring. I found a job, a home and eventually became familiar with the local area.
I choose not to shop at Walmart. I choose not to eat McDonald's or other fast food. I choose to pay more for certain goods that have the level of quality in a product I want. I choose to purchase a used car and drive it into the ground before purchasing a new vehicle. These are all choices I make. I make them because I have decided they are the best decision for me. I haven't made them because they were the only choice available. I haven't made these choices because someone else told me to make these choices. The difference is that I am willing to make sacrifices for those choices and many people are not. Just like they are not willing to take responsibility for their freedoms. Freedom means choice. It means you have the ability to choose your course of action. Just because a person chooses not to move, not to change jobs, not to shop locally doesn't mean it is impossible to make those choices. What it means is that those people are unwilling to make the sacrifices associated with those changes. They are scared to take the risk of leaving something they know, even when they don't like it. The old saying is "the devil you know is better than the devil you don't" has come to epitomize the modern day american spirit which is shame because it was the american spirit of adventure, ingenuity and can-do that lead us to be a great nation.
Our founding fathers certainly didn't let their fear of defeat deter them from revolution. I am not advocationg revolution but I AM advocating our need to return to the american spirit that made our revolution possible.
I would suggest you check out the infrastructure of this country with respect to the old "I can choose not to shop there/associate with you/you can always move" chestnut. It was perhaps true once, but increased wealth disparity and the metamorphesis of higher education and the state of employment overall have changed this over my lifetime.
Yes Freehold I can see how you would believe that. Yet that is the very opinion that has led to the decay of our society. It is the very philosophy that has lead to a lazy population that doesn't want to take advantage of available opportunities- it wants those opportunities given to it rather than earned.
In 2005 I moved to another state 6 hours from my home with no job, no knowledge of the local area, no home and just the belongings in my Honda Civic. Yes somehow I managed to survive. I lived out the old chestnut to which you are referring. I found a job, a home and eventually became familiar with the local area.
I choose not to shop at Walmart. I choose not to eat McDonald's or other fast food. I choose to pay more for certain goods that have the level of quality in a product I want. I choose to purchase a used car and drive it into the ground before purchasing a new vehicle. These are all choices I make. I make them because I have decided they are the best decision for me. I haven't made them because they were the only choice available. I haven't made these choices because someone else told me to make these choices. The difference is that I am willing to make sacrifices for those choices and many people are not. Just like they are not willing to take responsibility for their freedoms. Freedom means choice. It means you have the ability to choose your course of action. Just because a person chooses not to move, not to change jobs, not to shop locally doesn't mean it is impossible to make those choices. What it means is that those people are unwilling to make the sacrifices associated with those changes. They are scared to take the risk of...
not to make ugly accusations, but I would like to ask how you did this? I have hears these stories before and there is always a considerable amount left out. How did you get the job? Buy the house? I strongly suspect you had more in your life or at least your bank account than is stated in this tale at the very least.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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No I did not have a large savings to live off of, nor did I apply for public assistance, although I don't mind someone getting public assistance. I moved, looked in the paper, found a job, began working and have steadily improved my life over the last several years. It didnt happen overnight and it wasnt easy. But I did it.
Yes i know not everyone posting is from USA. It is my belief that entitlement and political correctness go hand in hand. The American spirit isnt about revolution, hence my statement about not advocating revolution. It is a can-do attitude that overcomes obstacles through ingenuity. It is a desire to be self reliant and to take the steps to become self reliant.
I dont dislike my president. He is my president and I support him even when I disagree with him. The problem of political correctness and hyper-sensitivity began well before President Obama was elected. And the problems with our economy also began before he was president. The left was offended by everything GW Bush did so you cant pigeonhole one group as the cause... Except maybe the media. Yeah i think they perpetuate the problem.
I guess I dont understand why ppl are so easily offended. And I certainly dont understand the need to censor or restrict what people say. If you dont like something someone said, walk away, change the channel, turn the radio off! Why is that so difficult?
I guess I dont understand why ppl are so easily offended. And I certainly dont understand the need to censor or restrict what people say. If you dont like something someone said, walk away, change the channel, turn the radio off! Why is that so difficult?
Couldn't I just as easily say "why don't people just stop saying offensive things? If you aren't TRYING to offend, thank the listener for the clarification and move on."
I think the world would be a better place if we encouraged and practiced empathy.
Couldn't I just as easily say "why don't people just stop saying offensive things? If you aren't TRYING to offend, thank the listener for the clarification and move on."
BZZZT sorry. Thanks for playing though.
You could just as easily say that. But you'd be wrong.I have absolutely no idea what will offend someone. We've established that it's subjective, circumstantial, and contextual. I've never had any more violent reaction to a word I've spoken than the f word, quietly, in a private conversation, in the next room from the person who overheard and shouted me down. Neither I nor anyone I know that are adults consider that word offensive. Someone else did, even spoken at hushed volumes by a complete stranger 30 feet from them.
Did that woman have a right to be offended? Sure. Did she have a right to shout me out and tell me what to say or not to say around my friends? Absolutely not.
People be crazy. Saying "don't say anything offensive" is as useful as saying "don't ever have any variety of contact with another human being".
I think the world would be a better place if we encouraged and practiced empathy.
I'm sure it would be. It's a matter of how you reinforce it socially. Positive reinforcement, i.e. encouragement, when people say something you agree with seems more logical and more likely to have the desired effect than punishing those who say something you don't agree with. Especially since none of us are in a position to judge the thoughts and feelings of others anywhere but in our own minds.
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meatrace,
Why are you trying to censor her free speech while vigourously defending your right to it? She has as much right to be offended as you have to drop f-bombs with your friends. Was she overreacting? Yeah, sure she was. I won't argue with you there. But she has the right to overreact, just like you have the right to swear like a sailor should you so wish. don't be so thin-skinned (TM).
meatrace,
Why are you trying to censor her free speech while vigourously defending your right to it? She has as much right to be offended as you have to drop f-bombs with your friends. Was she overreacting? Yeah, sure she was. I won't argue with you there. But she has the right to overreact, just like you have the right to swear like a sailor should you so wish. don't be so thin-skinned (TM).
What on earth made you think I'm trying to censor her free speech?
She was eavesdropping on a private conversation, intruded upon that private conversation, and tried to censor me.Your argument might have some traction if I was speaking TO her, but I wasn't. If you're going to try to argue that censorship of someone else is itself free speech, you've argued yourself into a pretzel knot where black is white and up is down.
Please, make sense.
Couldn't I just as easily say "why don't people just stop saying offensive things? If you aren't TRYING to offend, thank the listener for the clarification and move on."BZZZT sorry. Thanks for playing though.
You could just as easily say that. But you'd be wrong.
I have absolutely no idea what will offend someone. We've established that it's subjective, circumstantial, and contextual. I've never had any more violent reaction to a word I've spoken than the f word, quietly, in a private conversation, in the next room from the person who overheard and shouted me down. Neither I nor anyone I know that are adults consider that word offensive. Someone else did, even spoken at hushed volumes by a complete stranger 30 feet from them.Did that woman have a right to be offended? Sure. Did she have a right to shout me out and tell me what to say or not to say around my friends? Absolutely not.
People be crazy. Saying "don't say anything offensive" is as useful as saying "don't ever have any variety of contact with another human being".
I'm sure it would be. It's a matter of how you reinforce it socially. Positive reinforcement, i.e. encouragement, when people say something you agree with seems more logical and more likely to have the desired effect than punishing those who say something you don't agree with. Especially since none of us are in a position to judge the thoughts and feelings of others anywhere but in our own minds.
I think the world would be a better place if we encouraged and practiced empathy.
Thanks for agreeing with me. I think the "don't be offended" is equally stupid.
They're inane, useless statements that don't actually achieve anything.
BNW,
Yes, you can say what you like, but if you're being an a+$%%$#$, I also have the right to point out you're being an a!~%+~&&. If you don't want to be called an a#$@#!@!, you know what the simplest way to do that is? Don't say things that make you sound like an a%*%&~~%.
Because people don't think of THEMSELVES as crumpets. Being a crumpet is something only other people do. Since they (in their own minds) are not a crumpet and you are yelling at them as if they were, that makes you the crumpet.
Why are you trying to censor my free speech, instead?
because you're a crumpet. See how you disagree with me? :_
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meatrace,
Why are you trying to censor her free speech while vigourously defending your right to it? She has as much right to be offended as you have to drop f-bombs with your friends. Was she overreacting? Yeah, sure she was. I won't argue with you there. But she has the right to overreact, just like you have the right to swear like a sailor should you so wish. don't be so thin-skinned (TM).What on earth made you think I'm trying to censor her free speech?
She was eavesdropping on a private conversation, intruded upon that private conversation, and tried to censor me.Your argument might have some traction if I was speaking TO her, but I wasn't. If you're going to try to argue that censorship of someone else is itself free speech, you've argued yourself into a pretzel knot where black is white and up is down.
Please, make sense.
You're telling her she can't say something that she wants to say. That's you censoring her free speech. It's not exactly a subtle or complicated point. Whether she should have been listening is another social matter entirely and you're quite free to ignore her because she shoudln't be eavesdropping, but you're saying she shouldn't be allowed to say anything to you about it. Where's your respect for her right to free speech? However, if she heard you whispering from 30 feet away? Maybe that whisper isn't as quiet as you think it is.
And would your argument be different if she was in a conversation with you? If you swear and she is offended and says so, would you still say she shouldn't be allowed to tell you that you've offended her? If so, what's the difference, regardless of your intent, she heard you and was offended. Maybe she should have kept her offence quiet. Maybe you shouldn't swear so much. Same free speech issue. If she shouldn't be offended by overhearing you swearing, you shouldn't get a wasp up your arse about her telling you she was offended, either.
EDIT: Her saying she's offended and you should stop is as much cenosrship as you saying she shouldn't be offended. In both cases, you're trying to control someone else's speech and emotional reactions.
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BNW,
Yes, you can say what you like, but if you're being an a+$%%$#$, I also have the right to point out you're being an a!~%+~&&. If you don't want to be called an a#$@#!@!, you know what the simplest way to do that is? Don't say things that make you sound like an a%*%&~~%.Because people don't think of THEMSELVES as crumpets. Being a crumpet is something only other people do. Since they (in their own minds) are not a crumpet and you are yelling at them as if they were, that makes you the crumpet.
Why are you trying to censor my free speech, instead?because you're a crumpet. See how you disagree with me? :_
I agree. People don't think of themselves as crumpets which means the person they're being a crumpet to must be the one at fault. And yes, I'm guilty of this myself. Everyone is a crumpet at some point in their lives. However, I'm just pointing out your lack of awareness of being a crumpet does not mean you are not, in fact, being a crumpet. And if you have the right to be a crumpet, I have the right to be one right back by poiunting it out. It might not be productive but we're not arguing about effectiveness but that the right to free speech both includes the right to be a total and utter crumpet, and the right to point it out and ask you to stop.
Also, why do people actively try to perceive everything said to them in the most offensive way? Why do they seek to get offended? I don't understand.
Almost everything nowadays is offensive. And I'm getting pretty sick and tired of political correctness enforcers, who go and get offended for other people. What the hell?
Because, they are weak, scared and confused, and political correctness has been pushed so hard by so many interest groups. Being offended makes you important now, your offence should be respected.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqPcjm-X5GQ
It is a whine, as he says.
Couldn't I just as easily say "why don't people just stop saying offensive things? If you aren't TRYING to offend, thank the listener for the clarification and move on."BZZZT sorry. Thanks for playing though.
You could just as easily say that. But you'd be wrong.
I have absolutely no idea what will offend someone. We've established that it's subjective, circumstantial, and contextual. I've never had any more violent reaction to a word I've spoken than the f word, quietly, in a private conversation, in the next room from the person who overheard and shouted me down. Neither I nor anyone I know that are adults consider that word offensive. Someone else did, even spoken at hushed volumes by a complete stranger 30 feet from them.Did that woman have a right to be offended? Sure. Did she have a right to shout me out and tell me what to say or not to say around my friends? Absolutely not.
People be crazy. Saying "don't say anything offensive" is as useful as saying "don't ever have any variety of contact with another human being".
I'm sure it would be. It's a matter of how you reinforce it socially. Positive reinforcement, i.e. encouragement, when people say something you agree with seems more logical and more likely to have the desired effect than punishing those who say something you don't agree with. Especially since none of us are in a position to judge the thoughts and feelings of others anywhere but in our own minds.
I think the world would be a better place if we encouraged and practiced empathy.
I would like to point out, that her shouting and being aggressive would not fit the definition of being empathetic. So, I would say that before you even responded, I had already expressed a sentiment that I don't agree with that kind of behavior.
I fail to see how your example has anything to do with what I'm saying, because it isn't an example of what I'm promoting. In fact, your example is antithetical to the concept I'm promoting, so you aren't really disagreeing with me, but rather just venting about your experiences with an a&%@#*@.
I think fewer people should be a+&%&!*s.
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Meatrace, first off, apology. You are quite correct, I did completely and utterly misread what you said and imputed malicious actionns on your part into the text that weren't there. I'm sorry I got your argument so wrong that my response was but releveant, especially as that annoyed you. Wasn't my intention and I f*~*ed up.
Now, to make sure I understand your argument correctly this time, are you saying there are no circumstances when people can complain about being offended? Or is it just people you are not talking to who shouldn't complain?
The former I disagree with completely, the latter, not so much. If you're clearly audible from 30ft away, though, it is kind of hard to argue you're having a private conversation. If nothing else, she could have legitimately asked you to keep the noise down. If you're making that much noise and swearing, yeah, people can complain about your language. You're inflicting it on them, after all. Seriously, 30ft is a hell of a way for hushed conversation to travel, even in a quiet place. Same way if you are in conversation, as Hama said he was earlier, and you playfully insult your friend with racist/homophobic/whatever language, someone else in the conversation could legitiamately ask you to stop as that's racist/homophobic/whatever. You do not necessarily have to do anything about it, but they can tell you you're being offensive.
Going up to random strangers having a converasation and then interrupting if they're just talking normally is an incredibly rude and dickish thing to do. I think we agree on that one. They have the right to be rude and dickish, of course, but as mentioned earlier, they don't have the right not to be treated as such for their actions.
EDIT: To be sure, if she's screaming and shouting at you for it, then yeah, she's behaving as a crumpet. But if someone comes up and says, not shouts, they can hear you from across the room and what you're saying is offensive, maybe at least moderate the volume?
I think the issue was with this comment:
Couldn't I just as easily say "why don't people just stop saying offensive things?
I believe Meatrace was indicating this is an impossible standard to consider since there is no way to know in all circumstances what will be offensive or who may be listening.
No I did not have a large savings to live off of, nor did I apply for public assistance, although I don't mind someone getting public assistance. I moved, looked in the paper, found a job, began working and have steadily improved my life over the last several years. It didnt happen overnight and it wasnt easy. But I did it.
Yes i know not everyone posting is from USA. It is my belief that entitlement and political correctness go hand in hand. The American spirit isnt about revolution, hence my statement about not advocating revolution. It is a can-do attitude that overcomes obstacles through ingenuity. It is a desire to be self reliant and to take the steps to become self reliant.
I dont dislike my president. He is my president and I support him even when I disagree with him. The problem of political correctness and hyper-sensitivity began well before President Obama was elected. And the problems with our economy also began before he was president. The left was offended by everything GW Bush did so you cant pigeonhole one group as the cause... Except maybe the media. Yeah i think they perpetuate the problem.
I guess I dont understand why ppl are so easily offended. And I certainly dont understand the need to censor or restrict what people say. If you dont like something someone said, walk away, change the channel, turn the radio off! Why is that so difficult?
I maintain that something is being left out here, but whatever. Your story is encouraging, if simplistic.
