I don't think it's that more people are more easily offended. Instead, it's that courtesy, manners, and empathy have become much more rare.
I don't think it's that more people are more easily offended. Instead, it's that courtesy, manners, and empathy have become much more rare.
Mostly thanks to the television, mobile phones, channels like MTV and Commercials that make beautiful people look like Gods and normal people look like non-important boring creeps, mostly if they use ugly or normal people they are meant for comical reasons...
Television is the biggest reason people changed, especially commercials and Jersey Shore-like shows which are non-stop on every channel these days, about antisocial people that rule and are "cool", just take a look at that horrid snookie.
People learn that its OK to scream at your boyfriend/husband or cheat on your friends because in those shows they do it as well...
A white person who uses the word n~&&*& is (perhaps unintentionally) invoking the history behind it.
What about the word vinegar?
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I don't think it's that more people are more easily offended. Instead, it's that courtesy, manners, and empathy have become much more rare.Mostly thanks to the television, mobile phones, channels like MTV and Commercials that make beautiful people look like Gods and normal people look like non-important boring creeps, mostly if they use ugly or normal people they are meant for comical reasons...
Television is the biggest reason people changed, especially commercials and Jersey Shore-like shows which are non-stop on every channel these days, about antisocial people that rule and are "cool", just take a look at that horrid snookie.
People learn that its OK to scream at your boyfriend/husband or cheat on your friends because in those shows they do it as well...
There's a quote from Alan Bennett I think of whenever someone decries the end of civil society:
"I saw someone peeing in Jermym Street the other day. I thought, is this the end of civilization as we know it? Or is it simply someone peeing in Jermyn Street?”
Only 60 years ago, in the US, a mob could still hang a man for an unproven offense. If that man was black, and it took place in the South, the odds of the police charging anyone with a crime was extremely negligible.
And you want to describe the Jersey Shore as a decline? While I find it distasteful, I think it's actually an improvement compared to communities committing murder.
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A white person who uses the word n~&&*& is (perhaps unintentionally) invoking the history behind it.What about the word vinegar?
You've successfully convinced me this thread is over.
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I don't think it's that more people are more easily offended. Instead, it's that courtesy, manners, and empathy have become much more rare.
Yeah, that's exactly what Plato wrote, too. And amazingly, not only is the world still here, but we have far lower incidences of murder, wholescale violence, and the like per capita than at any time in human history. See also Steve Pinker's The Better Angels of Our Nature.
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Pinker is good. I particularly liked The Blank Slate.
You've successfully convinced me this thread is over.A white person who uses the word n~&&*& is (perhaps unintentionally) invoking the history behind it.What about the word vinegar?
actually, there is a case that can be made here, but it's more due to recent events than history. People can get creative when writing around obscenity filters, and there are some sites where the use of such words as stand ins for more offensive ones becomes commonplace. The word "sauce" on certain sites where file-sharing is decried or against the rules would be an example. That said, I don't see that happening with vinegar.
I know. I was actually expecting there to be some horrible racist etymology behind the word "vinegar" that I didn't know about, but no. Apparently it just ryhmes.You've successfully convinced me this thread is over.A white person who uses the word n~&&*& is (perhaps unintentionally) invoking the history behind it.What about the word vinegar?
What I'm trying to convey and establish is that there is a genuine grey area. Language is fluid. From what I've understood so far, you and IT are both arguing that people should be silenced for making offensive remarks. What I'm trying to establish is whether it is intent, reception, both, or either, that defines whether it was offensive.
If I call a black man n~%*!+ to his face, that's pretty cut and dried. What if I don't mean it as an insult, but am instead using it in context of things you shouldn't say or reporting on what a third party said? Are they correct to be offended then, even when the intent was not to denigrate? Does context play no role? You've said no when you said that the guy from Imus was wrong to use a direct quote and joke from the movie School Daze.
Is it the state of mind of the offendee that matters, solely? What if they overhear me say the word? What if they misheard? If I pass someone on the street and I happen to say the word vinegar as I pass him, in another conversation for instance, and he mishears, is he right to be offended? It's subjective, right?
What about n++*~$-toes? People of a certain generation used that to refer to Brazil nuts. Is n$&@*# toes offensive? What if it's a black person calling Brazil nuts n!##&~ toes?
How black does someone have to be before they're "allowed" to use the word? 50%? What about someone who is 1/8 black?
But even then, the n-word is pretty extreme and cut and dry. What about other racial epithets? I believe I learned in this thread (though it could have been another one, they all blend together to me) that eggplant is a racial epithet against black people. Is a black person right to be offended if they eat at an Italian restaurant that has eggplant parmesan on the menu? What about eggplant parmesan with n$~%#+ toes (as peculiar a dish as that would be)?
I choose not to use the n-word. But when I was in school it was in flux what was the right term to use to describe people of African descent. African-American was in vogue, but I've heard some strong black voices say that term is demeaning and they prefer black.
I remember my English teacher getting in trouble because one of our vocabulary words was niggardly, which isn't racial at all but only SOUNDS like a certain very charged word.
It may sound like I'm being flip, but these are all genuine questions to which there may well be no right answer and until everyone can collectively decide on all the minutiae, I think it's better to leave the decision on what people say to each person individually.
So. What about vinegar?
I was wondering when school daze, Brazil nuts and eggplant were going to come up, and I considered going over it in my original post. Suffice to say there are several ways to me a bigot, contrary to popular, or perhaps obtuse belief systems. While I have a problem with spike Lee personally, I have to say his two most popular works, school days and do the right thing, take the most unflinching looks at the use of racial slurs both in and out of a community.
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Vinegar please...
if vinegar, sauces based on vinegar, brazil nuts or what have you are actively being used in place of a racial slur, then yes, it is offenSive. It is a potentially lethal mistake to assume bigots are idiots, some are quite good at hiding their feelings or speaking in code in public. Does this mean we should be paranoid about the aforementioned substances? No.
Long post about gray areas
This thread is making the assumption that the people who are the target of offensive words are in the wrong. People are basically making the argument that the words are only offensive because the targets of them choose to be offended.
I'm taking those same concepts and showing how they can easily be directed at the speaker of offensive words as well. To me, they actually sound much more convincing too.
If the listener can choose how they react to an offensive word, then the speaker can choose how they react when they are told it was offensive. Instead of getting defensive about the use of the word, they can ask honest and respectful questions.
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If I understand him right, he's only upset about it being okay for black people to use the word while it isn't for white people to do so, Irontruth. I would say there is a point to his argument, in that it isn't a good thing either to be seen as part of an ethnic group only instead of as a person, or to single out a specific group for negative treatment. Furthermore, I doubt Andrew is old enough that he can be said to have any direct responsibility for either slavery or dignity-removing laws.
That said, I consider it a pretty small matter to avoid such a word. There are worse things to complain about regarding freedom of speech.
Exactly. if that word is so terrible why do THEY use it so often?
I am a second generation immigrant, my family has barely been here long enough to notice the civil rights movement let alone be here for the slavery.|
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I understand the point he's trying to make. Unfortunately, he can't separate what he wants his point to be from my point. They are directly linked and he can't just wish them to be separate.
A white person who uses the word n~&$%+ is (perhaps unintentionally) invoking the history behind it.
You're talking to Andrew.
I understand the point he's trying to make as well.
We've been through this before.It's that actual racism is a thing of the past and all claims of it now are just tools for minorities to attack whites with. Racism against whites is the only racism that matters today.
Not at all, i simply believe in true equality where we are all held to one standard.ONE. I find the creation of what is ok for the white man and what is ok for the black man to be inherently racist. You see me as racist for demanding one standard. i see you as racist for wanting to make people separated by race
Not at all, i simply believe in true equality where we are all held to one standard.ONE. I find the creation of what is ok for the white man and what is ok for the black man to be inherently racist. You see me as racist for demanding one standard. i see you as racist for wanting to make people separated by raceI understand the point he's trying to make. Unfortunately, he can't separate what he wants his point to be from my point. They are directly linked and he can't just wish them to be separate.
A white person who uses the word n~&$%+ is (perhaps unintentionally) invoking the history behind it.
You're talking to Andrew.
I understand the point he's trying to make as well.
We've been through this before.It's that actual racism is a thing of the past and all claims of it now are just tools for minorities to attack whites with. Racism against whites is the only racism that matters today.
I'm sorry the world is tough and unfair. People have had a lot of suggestions for those who are easily offended, such as grow a thicker skin. Maybe you could check out some of that advice.
Yes, you and I didn't enslave millions of black people and deny them their human and civil rights, personally. But we live in a country where that is part of our history. Put your big boy pants on and deal with it.
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if that word is so terrible why do THEY use it so often?
I refer to myself as a "goblin" all the time, 'coz I'm an ugly short dude, and a little bit of self-deprecation never hurt anyone. Some of my friends call me "that psycho midget" as a reminder of some idiot who referred to me as that back in high school -- it's a reminder of how long we've been friends.
But some big lunk walks up, shoulders me aside, and says "move it, pipsqueak?" I'll put him on the ground. Why don't I let THEM do it? Because when I do it to myself, or my friends do it, it's with some respect. But when someone does it to try and "put me in my place," they're making it clear that there's no room for detente or mutual respect -- they're insisting on dominance or submission. Guess which one I'm going to pick?
When a black man uses the "N" word, it's generally not a direct challenge to the person he's talking to. When a white man calls a black man that, in most cases it's very much a direct challenge (I say "most" because there are a few corner cases in which it wouldn't be -- generally if the two people have proven their friendship, loyalty, and lack of racial acrimony to each other across a number of years, and depending on how it's used.)
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Exactly. if that word is so terrible why do THEY use it so often?
It's not terrible in and of itself. It is terrible because it was used as a verbal implement of horrific oppression and a symbol of that legacy for centuries (and still is, in some places).
In any oppressed group, part of the process of empowering that group and negating some of the power of its oppressors is to reclaim the language that served to oppress them. You see this in a lot of disadvantaged groups. The arrangement of letters isn't what makes a word or phrase racist. It's the intent, the application, and the reception that determine whether it is racist in purpose.
THEY use it because they have reclaimed it, and because when they use it, it is not being used to oppress others. I'm not defending its use (I think it'd probably be better if it faded into history at this point), but there is a clear reason why it's okay for many black people to use it.
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Citizen Betts, I notice that you, too, found the capitalized "THEY" a bit telling.
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Citizen Betts, I notice that you, too, found the capitalized "THEY" a bit telling.
"What do you mean, you people?"
Any thing but equal is racist, and you all seem to support that.
"Racist" is a bit of a red herring in this context. It's about oppression vs. empowerment. Kind of like the white rural kids all bragging how "country" they are, and how "redneck" -- but that's a LOT different from a black guy (or a city folk) calling them "inbred crackers" or "white trash," don't you think?
So, white kids call themselves derogatory names out of pride, but it's not OK for the black kids to call them derogatory names out of hatred. Same deal with the "N" word being contested here. That's equal.
And, guess what? When I'm at a wine bar with my gay friend [name redacted], and make fun of him by threatening to order a rosé ("You guys love pink, right?") I can get away with it because he knows full freaking well I've got his back -- I've proved it before. He sees it's me and he KNOWS it. Someone else comes up and makes a similar remark, to be nasty, and he decides to act on it? He knows I'm with him all the way.
You want to call a black man the "N" word, and have it be OK? You've got to prove in first. There's an admission standard that you're not meeting. And you need to meet it for every individual, for real, and not just make one b!$@!##% claim of equality. Until you do, quit whining about it.
I would like to know the answer to the question above... what if it's an asian calling the black man "n!##~~"?
I would like to know the answer to the question above... what if it's an asian calling the black man "n!&&*!"?
Same answer. Has he proved in to the point where the black man can call him a "slanty-eyed buck-toothed rice paddy farmer" and have it be OK? Then go for it.
Until then, back the hell off.
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Any thing but equal is racist, and you all seem to support that."Racist" is a bit of a red herring in this context. It's about oppression vs. empowerment. Kind of like the white rural kids all bragging how "country" they are, and how "redneck" -- but that's a LOT different from a black guy (or a city folk) calling them "inbred crackers" or "white trash," don't you think?
So, white kids call themselves derogatory names out of pride, but it's not OK for the black kids to call them derogatory names out of hatred. Same deal with the "N" word being contested here. That's equal.
And, guess what? When I'm at a wine bar with my gay friend [name redacted], and make fun of him by threatening to order a rosé ("You guys love pink, right?") I can get away with it because he knows full freaking well I've got his back -- I've proved it before. He sees it's me and he KNOWS it. Someone else comes up and makes a similar remark, to be nasty, and he decides to act on it? He knows I'm with him all the way.
You want to call a black man the "N" word, and have it be OK? You've got to prove in first. There's an admission standard that you're not meeting. And you need to meet it for every individual, for real, and not just make one b~&$$+$$ claim of equality. Until you do, quit whining about it.
Not at all. if you are ok with it being said by one be ok with it being said by all. and yes how a word is said can matter, i can call someone "Bob" in the wrong tone enough they know it to be an insult but if the very word bob makes them scream then it is their problem not mine.
But the problem was several times described as a white man calling a black man "N~*##!" meant invoking slavery. Asians don't enter into that, to my knowledge. If the asian isn't doing that, then is there a qualitative difference? Should the black man be more or less offended compared to the white man saying it?
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if you are ok with it being said by one be ok with it being said by all.
Like hell. Mrs Gersen can jump my bones as she pleases. Some skank in a bar tries it, and I dump her on the floor. This shouldn't be that hard to understand.
But the problem was several times described as a white man calling a black man "N!!#%*" meant invoking slavery. Asians don't enter into that, to my knowledge. If the asian isn't doing that, then is there a qualitative difference? Should the black man be more or less offended compared to the white man saying it?
Slavery compounds the issue, but mostly inasfar as the remnants of the attitude responsible for it still reverberate -- no one alive today was then, so it's only the remnants we're dealing with. An Asian-American, miffed at the Japanese-American Internment, might get a whiff of something similar, n'est-ce pas? Or, for that matter, I might still get a little kick listening to Kinky Friedman sing "They Ain't Making Jews Like Jesus Anymore." But mostly, I think, it's about how things are now. Others might disagree.
I do realize that asians are victims of similar charming ways of expressing opinions, but that was not my question. Simply: Is it worse for a white man to call a black man a "N#+#~%" than if an asian does it, or are both situations equally offensive?
I do realize that asians are victims of similar charming ways of expressing themselves, but that was not my question. Simply: Is it worse for a white man to call a black man a "N@#!!@" than if an asian does it, or are both situations equally offensive?
I'd say that, today, it's pretty close. Barring of course something more personal, like, "I wish I could still lynch you people the way my granddaddy used to" -- that would nudge it into pure fighting words, I'd think. People, rightly, tend to get annoyed at that sort of thing.
It's also instructive, I think, to look at the Crown Heights Riots.
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I do realize that asians are victims of similar charming ways of expressing themselves, but that was not my question. Simply: Is it worse for a white man to call a black man a "N@#!!@" than if an asian does it, or are both situations equally offensive?I'd say that, today, it's pretty close. Barring of course something more personal, like, "I wish I could still lynch you people the way my granddaddy used to" -- that would nudge it into pure fighting words, I'd think. People, rightly, tend to get annoyed at that sort of thing.
I've had asians call me the n word before. It's quite offensive. I don't allow black people to call me that either, for what it's worth.
Thank you. Since I am not an american, it is difficult for me to judge such things. If what you are saying is true, then the problem is that someone calls a black man a "N@@$#%", not that a white man specifically does it. And that's as it should be.
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if you are ok with it being said by one be ok with it being said by all.Like hell. Mrs Gersen can jump my bones as she pleases. Some skank in a bar tries it, and I dump her on the floor. This shouldn't be that hard to understand.
That is an act happening to a person, not a spoken word. no real comparison there
the problem is that someone calls a black man a "N&**$#", not that a white man specifically does it.
More so, the problem is when someone refers to a black man that way in order to try and assert dominance over him. No free man should ever have to allow that.
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That is an act happening to a person, not a spoken word. no real comparison there
If you're talking only "sticks and stones," that's a separate discussion. Overall, though:
Some people can say and/or do things to me that others can't.
The same is true of almost all people.
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“You don’t have feelings,” I said. “I’ve heard blacks call you Tom, and whites call you n$*%%$, and for all you cared they could have been singing ‘Louie, Louie.’”
“I know.”
“And all of a sudden you have a NO-BLACK-MAN-CALLS-ME-TOM fit and we’re fighting four martial arts freaks.”
“I know. Done good too,” he said. “Didn’t we.”
“We’re supposed to,” I said. “What was all that wounded pride crap.”
Hawk grinned.
“Scrawny f%+&er annoyed me,” Hawk said.
“Well, of course he did,” I said.
Spenser (yes, spelled like the poet) for hire now? Kirth, you read all the right authors. :)
Kirth, you read all the right authors. :)
My favorites are Jack Vance, Robert Parker, Andrew Vachss, Henry David Thoreau, Dashiell Hammett, Alexandre Dumas. I'm not sure if there's a common theme there, but if there is, please recommend more!
You might pick up some Dennis Lehane (Mystic River and Gone, Baby, Gone are his two most popular books, but only because they've been made into movies) just for blanks and giggles. Definitely worth reading, but not for the timid.
Also: "Alexandre Dumas was black!"; It's totally weird cause I just PM-ed Freehold about Django Unchained.
You might pick up some Dennis Lehane (Mystic River and Gone, Baby, Gone are his two most popular books, but only because they've been made into movies) just for blanks and giggles. Definitely worth reading, but not for the timid.
Mystic River was awesome, but Shutter Island kind of sucked donkey dick, so I stopped there. Kind of like how David Baldacci's Absolute Power was a tour-de-force, and everything he's written since has been like a 10-year-old wrote it.
Also: "Alexandre Dumas was black!"
Well, half, but, yeah. Read Gregoire and there's no doubt! Also, Django was awesome! I just wished they'd cast someone other than Sam Jackson in that role -- it was a bit too much for me.
You might pick up some Dennis Lehane (Mystic River and Gone, Baby, Gone are his two most popular books, but only because they've been made into movies) just for blanks and giggles. Definitely worth reading, but not for the timid.Mystic River was awesome, but Shutter Island kind of sucked donkey dick, so I stopped there. Kind of like how David Baldacci's Absolute Power was a tour-de-force, and everything he's written since has been like a 10-year-old wrote it.
Also: "Alexandre Dumas was black!"Well, half, but, yeah. Read Gregoire and there's no doubt! Also, Django was awesome! I just wished they'd cast someone other than Sam Jackson in that role -- it was a bit too much for me.
Well, granted, in this day and age we would call him "mixed-race", but I sort of feel like that's a term that only gained traction in the U.S. since white people had to come to terms with voting for a black dude.
(Y'know what Freehold, you can just go ahead an post that PM for everyone to read, it looks like I derailed the thread anyhow. :P)
But about Lehane's stuff, I got Live by Night for Christmas, and really enjoyed it in a drippy-epic-romance sort of way.
You've read Harlan Ellison, right?
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Citizen Betts, I notice that you, too, found the capitalized "THEY" a bit telling.Emphasizing that if they find it ok why not for anyone else? racism, they are as bad as what they gripe about. Any thing but equal is racist, and you all seem to support that.
You're failing to understand it's not a double standard. When you examine only one word and one group of people, it appears to be a double standard, except it isn't actually, because there is more than just that one word and more than just that one group of people.
The standard is that people who are familiar with each other, or belonging to the same group have more leeway when referring to the group or individuals than people outside of that group.
The standard is equal for all. When you are dealing with strangers, if you want to keep things polite you will probably have to maintain some sort of control over your mouth.
The word n%!~%$ is an example of that standard, not an isolated case to be examined without acknowledging the existence of other words and other groups.
Similarly, there are a lot of women who find it offensive when strangers call them things like honey, pumpkin, sweetie, toots, etc. Because those are words carry implications with them that make the women uncomfortable. Some women don't care, but if you don't know them and what they might find offensive/uncomfortable, why use those terms for women you don't know? Save them for family/significant others.
I love Ellison.
He's a huge douche though.
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You guys are talking about the black population, the n-word and Harlan Ellison?