Dabbler, have you considered keeping track of all the roles the Monk player makes, and then comparing them to what his Monk would be like without the changes, and determine a success/failure percentage?
That really depends on how you do it - with the current monk Leessin, I could compare with what he would otherwise get as he is currently built and it would be a huge difference. Or I could compare with how this monk would have been built otherwise and it would make very little, because the monk would either be dexterity or strength heavy instead of wisdom-heavy.
Up to this point, the major difference it has made is reducing MAD, so I'd guess up to 3rd level it's only "added" +1 to hit. It's something I will keep a note of in future - not just hits and misses, but by what margins.
Probability formulas (like for DPR) are fine in theory, but in reality, most people are playing with warped dice that are inherently biased. Some people are also extraordinarily lucky. I have a friend that has a guaranteed (so far) 1 in 5 natural 20 chance. We've tested it extensively, with 13 different sets of dice, and he always rolls a 20 at least 1 out of 5 times.
I have a player like that, and he's not the monk player. The monk player uses a d20 that seems to have a pretty even spread of probability (I have been keeping an eye on this).
The point is, keeping track of where the changes helped the Monk be better in reality (not theory), might give better insight into how the Monk compares to before. Sometimes the player would have only missed it by 1 or 2 points, but with the changes, he succeeds more often. It would be nice to see a comparison of these changes.
Well here's the thing, the changes so far have not made a major difference to accuracy, although they have made a difference. Where they have made a big change is in allowing the monk more leeway elsewhere in the character.
Wis-to-hit means that in this case the monk can have a decent AC and a decent chance to hit, although damage still suffers, without having to pay a feat-tax. That gives the character a spare feat they would not otherwise have, and that gives more scope to customize the character, which in turn allows it to be more fun for the player.
As the levels increase, though, the differences will start to get stronger. I'm looking at them really kicking in around 10th level, which is where the monk usually starts to suffer.
I would suggest asking the player to record every d20 roll he makes that is influenced by the changes, and then you could compare what the rolls would have been like without the changes and see the results. One could then, theoretically, try and guess how the fights would have turned out if the Monk had failed the rolls that only succeeded because of the changes.
It's worth keeping tabs on this, yes. However, you can usually tell if a character has become "too powerful" because they start to dominate the game rather than just have "moments of glory".
Next into the fight were the monk & barbarian, and the monk was able to take a flying leap and grapple the druid off the ceiling and bring him to the ground. The Barbarian started raging and cleaving through the wolves, and the druid once he was down.
Again, the monk was not the star, but he contributed effectively and has his moment in the limelight. The rogue got his moment disarming a trapped chest to access much loot, the ranger shot arrows into everything that moved and the barbarian did what barbarians do best. After the brief encounter the cleric dished out the healing.
The monk is now Marshal of the fledgling nation, it suiting a character in a kingdom built on rivers and having a swim-speed...
@Tels: thanks for your argument, mate. I went back in the thread and saw Dabbler's just made it clear quite in the beginning (and I didn't noticed the post, my bad...). So, i guess it would be a good idea to tie the Wis bonus to hit with the Wis bonus to AC, and then we have:
Harmony of Body and Mind (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wis modifier (if any) to AC and CMD, and this bonus increases by 1 at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, up to a maximum increase of +5 at 20th level. Additionaly, when unarmored and unencumbered, a monk can apply 1 point of Wis bonus (if any) per monk class level on attack rolls made with unarmed strikes or monk weapons (including Flurry of Blows), instead of Str bonus.
Pretty iconic, it matches nicely with the concept of "hale mind in a hale body", i guess... :)
I don't see the need to limit the monk's bonus from wisdom to hit this way for a number of reasons. For one, it means a monk designed to work on Wisdom has to spend their low levels unable to hit much, which is suckage they don't need. For another, limiting wis-to-hit to monk weapons and unarmed strike keeps it out of useful reach to divine casters already, which is the real potential for abuse.
Thank you for all your commentary guys, I appreciate any and all comments and suggestions!
By dint of being practically the only regular DM in our club, I have attracted 2 more players, it seems...
So now we are testing in a party that consists of:
Aasimar Sorcerer - Ygdrasil, angelic bloodline.
Dhampir Magus - Myke, new player.
Dwarf Cleric - Ragnar, very much an 'engineer' type.
Halfling Rogue - John, scout archetype.
Human Barbarian - Kefflin, standard destroyer of whatever is in his way.
Human Fighter/Paladin - NPC graduated to PC with a little re-working.
Human Ranger - Ilyana, archer, with an elk.
Undine Monk - Leessin, Snake Style specialist.
This is not an issue, so long as I beef up the encounters. By and large doubling the numbers and clustering the enemies should work reasonably well.
You'd be surprised Dabbler. My first campaign I ever GM'd is Curse of the Crimson Throne (still in progress) and I've run the group with a size closer to 10 than 5. Combats tend to drag on, even if you don't increase the enemy numbers.
I would honestly suggest, if you're going to increase the number of enemies, pre-rolling dice, and using a huge list, and then just going down in order to determine effects. Maybe make a separate sheet for each enemy's attack rolls.
I'm a dab hand at this, Tels, I've DM'ed a group of up to a dozen before now (although I wouldn't recommend it). The problem I'm more worried about is the combat being over before the slowest person has acted at all...
Last Night's session:
The party elected to explore the region around a lake with several rivers flowing into it. This was in the monk's environment, being an undine...
Characters Present (some are on hols):
Kefflin the human barbarian
Ragnar the dwarf cleric
Ygdrasil the aasimar sorcerer
Myke the dhampire magus
Leessin the undine monk
Spoilers to Kingmaker #2 below.
Kefflin struck back, but also missed. First blood went to Ragnar who managed his concentration check and dropped a spiritual weapon into a flanking position on the shambler. Lessin shot ashore faster than anyone, and raced in to support the barbarian, but even she couldn't get there in time to engage the shambling mound. Magic missiles and a burning hands spell were let loose, but the latter from Myke achieved nothing.
The shambler flailed, scoring some damage on Kefflin, then Leessin got into the fight, but scored only one hit for 3 damage compared to Kefflin's shed-load when his greatsword hit home (2d6+17, I ask you). Myke also tried to join the fight, but between riding, trying to use spell combat and casting defensively he scored nothing on the shambling mound - the player's new, he's still learning. More magic missiles from Ygrasil's wand, the sorcerer just holding position in the river, and Ragnar made it ashore at last.
Final round, the shambler split it's attacks between Leessin and Kefflin, and hit neither. Leessin managed a flurry of hits including a lucky critical, for damage that equalled Kefflin's, the same with the spiritual weapon. Then it all ended with Kefflin's next stroke. Party collected shambling mound juice, and continued exploring.
Dice rolls from the monk player were quite within the normal range of probabilities, about half his blows hit, normal for a +8 attack bonus vs an AC19 target.
The party discovered a large geothermal mud pool surrounded by thick clumps of fungus, including some rare ones they decided to collect. The day of the plant continued with the tendriculos waiting patiently in the middle of the clump. Naturally, acting as scout the monk approached within range quite oblivious of the danger...
Surprise round, the tendriculos shot out a tentacle and snared the monk for 4 damage and successfully grappled her. The monk struggled, knowing just where tentacle plants and female adventurers can lead, and successfully oposed the strength check to drag her closer, but held her action to try and escape until help could arrive - she had a +10CMB to grapple, but that wasn't likely to be good enough against a huge plant. The barbarian charged, took damage from an AoO, avoided being grabbed and then missed completely.
Myke moved in and greased the monk, and she attempted to slip free - and rolled a 3 when she needed a 4. Ragnar also rushed forward and hurled a pot of oil which hit the huge plant and splattered all over it. Then Ygrasil sent in his flaming sphere and the tendriculos went up in flames - not a happy plant.
Leessin's good initiative meant she could try and slip free again, and this time she pulled it off with ease, quaffed a draft of applejack and took a five-foot step closer. The tenriculos lashed out at all in range and scored some damage on Kefflin. The latter swung again and missed. Myke rushed in with fire breath, while Ragnar threw more oil. The plant was burning but wasn't out by a long way yet as the sorcerer bounced the sphere against it again and again.
Leessin got in close and started punching, but rolled badly and only got one small hit. The plant lashed her back, but while it did damage it failed to grapple. Kefflin found himself being bitten and grabbed, and was to be swallowed the next round. However, the damage was mounting up from fire and blow, as Ygdrasil and Myke kept up the bombardment, while Ragnar threw more oil on the fire.
Despite more tentacle hits on Leessin and Myke, the writing was on the wall for the tendriculos. Lessin delivered the killing blow, punching through the trunk even as Kefflin went down the hatch, and promptly clawed his way out (bestial rager). Second time that player's had a character swallowed by a tendriculos, but I digress.
The whole party had some appalling luck during this battle, with both Leessin and Kefflin missing with the majority of attacks. However this was made up for by the quick thinking of the spell-casters unloading every fire-spell and pot of oil they had at the monster.
Biggest issue is that Myke couldn't be healed easily, and that's going to become a serious issue for the dhampir as things progress
The party reached one of their goals, a fishing hole taken over by a giant alligator snapping turtle. They formulated a plan thus: use the monk as bait to lure the creature out of the water. This was quite successful, although the monk got a nasty bite the rest of the party, being primed and ready, destroyed the turtle in one round. They even recovered some loot, an elemental gem (water).
Overall, monitoring dice rolls I have to say the monk player is on the unlucky side this session. Since getting his nice shiny sword repaired, Kefflin is scoring 2d6+17 damage a hit (at +12 to hit), while the monk is dishing 1d8+1 at +8. Outshining the barbarian for damage isn't going to happen, but the number of attacks is meaning Leessin is getting hits in which often gets foes to split their attacks between the easy-to-hit barbarian with lots of HP, and the harder-to-hit monk with less HP.
The monk struggled, knowing just where tentacle plants and female adventurers can lead...
I snorted. :P
Every time tentacles come into play in this game, someone in my group makes mention of this, and we always look at one guy who's mother walked in on him when he was 11 and had just stumbled across some Japanese tentacles...
Ugh, I recall playing every one of these encounters and none of them were fun.
The turtle was mean as well. Being half-submerged, he had cover against all our attacks. Our Cleric has a backstory involving him almost drowning, so he is terrified of water and wouldn't go near the Turtle. One person got dragged in by him (don't remember who), but we luckily happened to have a rope tied around each other (Cleric's insistence when we're near water), and pulled him out. Man, that turtle was a pain. Glad you guys had it easier!
The Miasma they basically waited and acclimatized to it, although most of the saved early on.
As for the turtle, the monk's aquatic nature makes her ideally suited to act as a lure. She did get bitten, but once the thing was on the edge they just hammered it hard. When this group get their mojo going, they are pretty good.
Another interesting exercise last Thursday.
The party had a random encounter with a barghest, and in this one the monk shone for the first time, though as much thanks to lucky dice-rolls than anything else. That said, he also had some unlucky rolls...
First, a natural 20 on perception meant the monk was awoken by an eerie howl, and went to join the magus on guard. Between them they spotted, after several minutes, a creature sneaking toward their camp. The monk jumped the gun and rushed it, but couldn't hit it, and it tried it's charm power.
A '1' on the save, and the monk returned to camp with his new best friend. The magus raised the alarm and tried to attack it, and the monk struck him to subdue. Meanwhile the barghest decided to see if it could eat a sleeping person, and started poking it's head into tents. The first was empty, the second contained a barbarian just waking up. Not a pretty sight, and the barbarian dealt a massive blow for more than half the creatures hit points in one wallop.
In moments the barghest was surrounded, with it's blink power kicking in to keep it alive, and the monk got a second save as seeing the barghest trying to eat his friends was definitely something that would make you think twice. This time he made it, but the barghest used its dimension door to begin an escape, and laid up to watch the party.
However, the cleric had spotted it far off (another 20 on perception) and the monk and rogue stealth team went into action. They got quite close before the barghest spotted them, and decided a halfling snack would be a risk it could take. The halfling found himself at a distinct disadvantage without a magic weapon, but when the monk moved in and started flanking the situation improved radically and he dealt some damage from a couple of sneak attacks.
This is when the monk's multiple attacks really kicked in as he blew a lot of ki-points gaining extra attacks, and despite the miss-chance from blink he was scoring hits - and taking them, as the barghest was hitting back hard. The monk did not do a lot of damage on each hit, but enough, and a lucky crit killed the breast just as the barbarian turned up in his underpants.
Analysis: the monk had a range of lucky and unlucky rolls. His AC did not prove proof against the barghest, and if the barbarian hadn't hammered it for a lot of damage before hand the fight would easily have gone the other way. However, his stealth skills made catching up with the barghest easier, something the barbarian could not have done.
It seems that, so far, the changes you've made to the monk matched your expectations, Dabbler. Really nice work!
It's my guess that, once you finish the AP, you intend to contact Paizo and show them your "experiment", yes?
Well, they can see the ongoing progress here, and I hope they are, but if not I'll bring attention to them, yes. I'm hoping some people will try and "break" my changes too. I gave it a go, with some builds taken from level 1 to level 20, and while I ended up with a "strong" monk, I didn't end up with a "broken" one.
That said, I'm going to try taking this campaign all the way to 20 as well if I can. My players are certainly keen...
Thursday's session opened with a large combat -
The party made peaceful contact with the Lizardfolk, and opened negotiations on trade. All was going well, as the rogue slipped away unnoticed and did some exploring. He discovered the child they were searching for in one hut, and then carried on exploring, finding a strange glowing thing that attacked him another hut. This Will-o-Wisp was posing as the Lizardmen's "ancestral spirit" and had convinced them to keep the child alive and frightened for it to feed off. Naturally, now made aware of the party's presence, it hastened to order the king to kill the interlopers, which he did.
Opening the fight, the party were somewhat wrong footed as only the Sorcerer Ygrasil (their King, also known as the biggest queen in the land, but we won't go there now) could speak Draconic. He enlarged the barbarian Kefflin, who swept out his massive sword realising that an attack was on the way.
The Lizard-king attacked, scoring a critical hit on the barbarian, and one of his pet crocs bit Ygdrasil and hung on tight. Ragnar the cleric had to pump a cure moderate wounds spell into Ragnar to keep him on his feet as the rest of the lizardmen piled in - well some of them, one contingent hung back, apparently unwilling.
Leessin the monk attacked the Will-o-Wisp, but only scored one hit. The high AC of the Wisp made it very hard to attack, and it promptly vanished anyway. The halfling rogue John used his sling to take down one of the king's wive's with temporary damage, while the barbarian returned the king's critical hit and chopped up one of his crocodiles with a Cleave.
In the general mayhem, the monk managed to stun the croc hanging onto Ygdrasil, and inhured the king, who was finished by Ilyana the ranger shooting from outside the village. Once the king went down, the Lizardfolk warriors lost their nerve against Kefflin the barbarian, who was still getting propped up with healing spells, and backed off. Monk and rogue engaged the wisp, but it was driven off by Myke the magus who got in a flat-footed attack due to his own invisibility.
The lizardman warrior who ordered the others to back down re-opened peace negotiations, and this time the party decided that annexing the village would be preferable, and having seen Kefflin demolish several lizardmen, they agreed.
Again, the monk's performance was not stellar, but was significant. He didn't deal out huge damage, but he did get hits in that had effect - stunning a crocodile, injuring the wisp and the lizard-king, and taking some of the heat off others.
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Maybe it would be a good idea to create a PDF or DOC archive with the current changes you've implemented and make it available for downloading? I guess it would be very handy for people interested in adopting those changes in their games (myself included, you bet! =P )...
Good idea, I'll do that tomorrow - gaming night tonight!
As great as file sharing is these days, it seems to be revealing people's real names an awful lot of the time recently.
No big deal on the name stuff, heck mines in my profile. My name is Christos, hear me roar.
I just assume that anyone on line can see who I am if they try hard enough. It saves on paranoia!
Last weeks session...
The cleric and paladin heard the sound of a grisly scream as the werewolf found his next victim, and raced to the scene on horseback. The paladin tackled the werewolf-barbarian, and the two started exchanging blows. The paladin's AC23 (boosted to 26 by smite) held him in good stead, foiling the werewolf's bite attacks (but not his axe). He started smiting, dishing back as good as he got with the cleric buffing and healing after setting off a thunderstone.
The monk was first on the scene with the magus hard on his heels. Quaffing some spirits he used his mobility and drunken stagger to try and flank the werewolf. This wasn't as successful as he'd have liked, but he managed it. Then the werewolf decided that agile young women are squishier than armoured paladins and mauled the monk badly, before the monk responded with use of drunken strength and stunning fist to lay the werewolf spark out.
Now I should point out that in this encounter the monk's DR-bypass was invaluable - the paladin was ignoring DR because he was smiting, but the monk would have struggled to do any damage at all through the DR 5/silver without his unarmed strike's DR-bypass ability, even with his drunken strength. That improved his performance from "annoyance/victim" to "serious adversary".
Comparing the monk and paladin, the monk has way better mobility and multiple attacks, but the paladin tops out on AC, hit points, accuracy and damage per attack. It was nice to compare the monk in practice against a class other than the barbarian, and the comparison was quite good. The paladin in a great tank, but less versatile. The monk is slightly more versatile and mobile, but less of a tank.
At any rate, the party, in their usual Lawful way, cured the barbarian of his lycanthropy once he had turned human again, and cured his wounds. I deviated from the plot a little, as the party wanted to go hunt down the lycanthrope that infected the barbarian, so gave them a target out in the Narlmarches they would have to go through some other areas to reach. On route they encountered the Nixie having an altercation with the loggers, and resolved this amicably for all parties.
Then they ran into the dryad and her problems, and embarked to deal with the scythe tree - or trees, as given the size of the party I decided to face them against two. Forewarned of the trees, and with two arcane casters with fire spells, the party fried one tree and hacked the other down in short order, and I closed the session there as it was late and I haven't designed the natural lycanthrope pack yet....
Overall, the session went as others: the monk's mobility keeps him in the action, his greater accuracy keeps him relevant, but his damage is not excessive, but is scored consistently. He is, in combat, a functional jack-of-all-trades.
Here are his 5th level stats:
Female Undine Monk (Drunken Master) 5
LN Medium Outsider (aquatic, native)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 19, flat-footed 17 (+1 armor, +3 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 38 (5d8+10)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +8
Defensive Abilities evasion; Resist cold 5
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft., swimming (30 feet)
Melee Dagger +7 (1d4/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Temple sword +8 (1d8/19-20/x2) and
. . Sai +7 (1d4/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +8 (1d8+1/x2) or FoB +8/+8 (1d8+1/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Shuriken +8 (1d2/x2) and
. . Underwater light crossbow +6 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +3/+3
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +9 (+11 Grappling); CMD 22 (24 vs. Grapple)
Feats Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Deflect Arrows (1/round), Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (5/day) (DC 16)
Traits Child of the Temple (Knowledge [nobility]), Noble Born - Lodovka
Skills Acrobatics +16 (+20 jump, +21 to jump), Climb +4, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (nobility) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +12, Perform (string instruments) +4, Profession (brewer) +8, Sense Motive +14, Stealth +8, Survival +5, Swim +13
Languages Aquan, Common
SQ ac bonus +5, amphibious, drunken ki, fast movement (+10'), high jump, hydrated vitality (10 hp/day), ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, slow fall 20', stunning fist (stun, fatigue), unarmed strike (1d8)
Combat Gear Elemental gem (water); Other Gear Crossbow bolts (20), Dagger, Masterwork Shuriken (25), Masterwork Temple sword, Sai, Underwater light crossbow, Boots of elvenkind, Bracers of armor +1, Handy haversack (10 @ 29.06 lbs), Ring of protection +1, Applejack (per gallon), Bedroll, Canteen, Flint and steel, Grappling hook, Silk rope, Trail rations (3), 150 PP, 3 GP
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
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Applejack (per gallon) - 0/1
Crossbow bolts - 0/20
Dagger - 0/1
Deflect Arrows (1/round) - 0/1
Drunken Ki (Su) - 0/2
Hydrated Vitality (10 HP/day) - 0/10
Ki Pool (Su) - 0/6
Masterwork Shuriken - 0/25
Stunning Fist (5/day) (DC 16) - 0/5
Trail rations - 0/3
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +5 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Amphibious (Ex) You can survive indefinitely on land.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deflect Arrows (1/round) While have an empty hand, negate one ranged weapon hit you are aware of (unless from a massive weapon).
Drunken Ki (Su) Drunken Ki pool allows the use of Ki powers.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+10') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
High Jump (+5/+25 with Ki point) (Ex) +5 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Hydrated Vitality (10 HP/day) Gain fast healing 2 when submerged completely in natural, flowing, water.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Slow Fall 20' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (5/day) (DC 16) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Swimming (30 feet) You have a Swim speed.
Unarmed Strike (1d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
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Zen Warrior: A monk may choose to use their Wisdom bonus rather than their strength or dexterity bonus for attacks made with special monk weapons, combat maneuvers, or with the monk’s unarmed strike.
Currently, +4 modifier to hit.
A monk’s unarmed strike treats the hardness or damage resistance (of any type) of a target as less by one point for every level of monk the character possesses.
Currently, reduce DR by 1
Amending the Ki-Pool entry as follows:
As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to gain a +1 enhancement bonus as the spell greater magic fang. At 7th level this increases to +2, at 10th level, his unarmed attacks are +3, at 13th level +4, and at 16th level his unarmed attacks gain a +5 enhancement bonus.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack a round at his highest attack bonus.
In addition, he can spend 1 point to move 20 feet in a swift action.
The monk is proficient with all weapons of the type "monk".
This evening's session featured a bespoke encounter I made. After curing an inflicted lycanthrope the party went after the natural lycanthrope that caused the offending issue...so prepared a family of them, because I don't like things being boring.
They were all natural werewolves, and consisted of:
6th level inquisitor of Urgathoa (the leader)
5th level fighter
4th level witch
4th level barbarian
4th level ranger (archer)
The werewolves had some forewarning and knew they were in for a fight, but fancied their chances (not without merit). The party (all 5th level) consisted of:
Undine Drunken Master Monk
Dwarf Cleric of Torag
Human Ranger (archer)
Aasimar Celestial Sorcerer
Human Barbarian
Dhampir Magus
Human Fighter/Paladin
Halfling Rogue (scout)
4th level Human Barbarian NPC (the former afflicted lycanthrope)
So a tough enemy, but a large party.
The party were in the forest on the werewolve's turf, so the latter had a distinct advantage and set an ambush: they would use prepared positions in trees (about a dozen feet up) to surround the path, pre-buff with potions, and use opening volleys of spells and arrows to wear down the party, then engage in melee. Even so the eagle-eyed ranger caught a hint of a problem ahead, and the rogue dove into the bushes to hide. Sneaking around he spotted one of the ambushers and set of an alarm by hurling a thunderstone at him from cover - and amazingly staying hidden.
The party and the werewolves both acted in the surprise round. The halfling managed to bean the werewolf he saw with his sling and knocked him out of the tree he was hiding in, the werewolf, surprised, lay low in the cover he landed in and drank some potions to restore himself. The witch used her hex to disquiet the party's horses, and this lost them some actions. The rest of the werewolves attacked: the werewolf ranger in particular cost the paladin more than half his hit points from one shot (flaming bane arrow with gravity bow and favoured enemy: human), while the werewolf leader tagged the cleric for a nasty amount of damage as well.
So far, so good for the werewolves, but it was already starting to unravel for them as some members of the party rushed to engage the them, while some held back. The monk rushed the ranger archer - not reaching her but lining up a running jump into her tree. The magus also moved quickly, as did the NPC barbarian. The result was that when the witch hit the party with web on round two they were already dispersing and many were not caught in it; most of those who were saved although their horses did not. The cleric, thrown from his horse, had blessed the party and now hit her with a spiritual weapon while the party ranger peppered her with arrows. She then tried blinding the sorcerer and ranger with glitterdust, but only the sorcerer succumbed, and was still able to enlarge the ranger.
The halfling rogue watched the werewolf he'd knocked out of a tree get up and managed to get in yet another sneak attack, although this one gave away his position, and the werewolf charged him and delivered 22 damage in one hit, enough to make the halfling appreciate his boots of striding and leaping as he made a full withdrawal. The werewolf decided that the dwarf was a greater threat and rushed him, taking him to -10 with one hit - thankfully he stabilized. At this point, seeing how injured the werewolf now within charge range was, the halfling risked all and rushed him, scoring a critical hit with his rapier and knocking the werewolf fighter to -1. He was the only one who damaged that werewolf, making it almost a solo kill. The witch turned her attention on him, but he saved against her steal breath and the ranger finally took her down with spear-sized arrows.
The sorcerer enlarged the barbarian who slogged through the webs and undergrowth toward the werewolf barbarian. Meanwhile the NPC barbarian had ridden around and delivered a critical hit with a greataxe that did a LOT of damage in spite of the werewolf's DR. This wolf abandoned his bow and jumped from the tree, then quaffed his own potion of enlarge person and shifted to hybrid form, just in time for the party barbarian to steam in and deduct most of his hit points in one blow. His counter-blow returned the compliment, but then the party barbarian scored a critical hit and did 56 damage in one hit, killing him outright.
The magus had gone for the leader of the werewiolves, setting his tree on fire with burning hands and singeing him. He responded by leaping from the tree and swinging his scythe at the magus, reducing him to single digit hit points (the bane power of an inquisitor is nice!). At this moment the fighter/paladin rode in with some smitey goodness, taking the heat off the magus, but at a cost as the next sweep of the scythe put him to negatives. At this point, the party were getting worried, two of them were now down and no werewolves had (yet) fallen. The NPC barbarian came rushing in to keep the heat off the magus, but he too was taken down with a sweep of that scythe. At this point the werewolf fighter and barbarian went down, and the party barbarian came hurtling in against the werewolf leader. Even then, he didn;t fall until the party ranger drilled an arrow into him, and magus delivered the coup-de-grace.
The monk's target had proven awkward: He first tried leaping into the tree and grappling down the werewolf ranger, but she evaded the grapple. Then, seeing she only had one attacker, she dropped her bow, jumped out of the tree and set about him. Both were almost stalemated, as both had high AC and low damage. The monk scored only a few hits on her, she scored none on him. By the time the werewolf leader fell, she was the only one still standing, and she made her escape, the only werewolf to survive.
Conclusion: the rogue played to his strengths and all but solo'd a werewolf fighter 5. The barbarian was the damage dealer once again but nearly blew his chance waiting for buffs. The magus had some lousy luck on the dice, but still managed to get some hits in. The sorcerer used largely buffs, rather than damage, but did plenty even when blinded. The fighter/paladin got targeted early on and suffered. The cleric kept the party supported with spells but was taken out by a solid hit. The ranger did what she always did - shoot things - and did it well. The monk made a solid decision to counter the werewolve's best archer, and stopped her hurting everyone else. However he was unable to subdue her before the fight ended, or catch her when she escaped. Then again, he was the only PC to fight a werewolf completely solo.
Sounds like a fun encounter. Was the Monk not dealing damage because he wasn't hitting, or because he couldn't get through the DR?
Also, moot point now, but can a Werewolf benefit from Enlarge Person while in hybrid form? I thought you could only have 1 affect that changed your form, or something like that.
Well I fed the latter into HeroLab, and it worked, and it made for an awesome encounter - the toughest to date, as the party suffered a 1/3 casualty rate with three characters (one of them an NPC) near death before it ended - so I ran with it.
The monk dealt about 20 damage over four rounds of combat and was able to ignore the DR of the werewolf she was fighting, but she was ironically facing off against the highest-AC/CMD werewolf and had a run of bad luck. The player rolled a great High Jump into the tree she was in, and went for a grapple to tackle her out...and failed. The werewolf ranger dropped out of the tree instead and drew her own melee weapons, and the monk tried to drop and go for another grapple - and failed again. After that, the monk resorted to beating the werewolf while she snapped and hacked at him.
In fairness, he hit her several times while she couldn't hit him once in melee (this werewolf was a way better archer), so he was still getting the better of her. To give the monk their due, this archer had some human bane arrows, doused in oil of flame arrow, had favoured enemy: human, and was devilishly accurate, so tying her down in melee with a non-human undine was the right thing to do and was of greater benefit to the party than I think anyone realised (her first non-critical shot dealt 26 damage to the paladin, who had the party's highest AC). Her second two shots missed the monk as she closed in (and he has Deflect Arrows anyway), so she was the definite character for the job. Both werewolf and monk had a run of poor dice rolls, which is why that combat was so indecisive. Every other werewolf was fighting several foes, so one player's bad luck didn't come into it.
Everyone agreed it was an epic fight!
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After a break at Halloween, we rejoined the exploration of the wilderness of the Narlmarches once again.
Present were:
John the halfling rogue
Kefflin the human barbarian
Ygdrasil the aasimar sorcerer
Ragnar the dwarf cleric
Myke the dhampir magus
Leessin the undine drunken monk
Seeing the walls through the greenery, the party advanced carefully and slowly. John scouted ahead, but didn't see the portcullis trap on the gate, and it dropped, trapping him in the keep with the rest of the party on the outside. In a blur, one of the quicklings used Spring Attack to dart in and out, leaving John bleeding. The quickling's attempt to hide at the end of his move failed and the halfling was able to try and counter-attack, but missed. The second quickling attacked, and again John was bleeding and very low in hit points. He quaffed a potion to halt the bleed and regain some hit points.
Meanwhile, the party rolled up and Ygdrasil cast enlarge on Kefflin so that he could try and lift the gate - and failed. Myke cast levitate on the monk, and he went up the wall. He then cast it on the gate itself to help lift it, but again this failed. Burning through his arcane pool he made a third cast on himself as Leessin landed in the courtyard and rushed over to the wounded John. Ygdrasil used his wand of magic missiles to bombard the quicklings when they showed themselves.
This time, when the quicklings made their Spring Attacks it was on the prepared monk. They missed, but so did the many attacks of opportunity that came their way. John took their retreat as a chance to hide, and did so very well.
It was at this point that Ragnar remembered he had wood shape, and this was a wooden portcullis. He easily shaped a doorway in it, and the party squeezed (in Kefflin's case, having decided not to throw the dwarf over the wall regardless) through.
The quicklings were growing overconfident. One was stunned for a round by a color spray from Ygdrasil, who targeted rustling bushes with the area effect, and Myke then cloaked them in web. The other quickling attacked Leessin again, who had held back a prepared stunning fist, and got a punch in the face for his trouble. He also provoked attacks of opportunity from both monk and hidden halfling, the latter using his Sap Master to dish out a lot of non-lethal damage and the former bypassing the fey's DR. That quickling did not so much spring away as stagger, having barely made his save from the stun and being reduced to just a few non-lethal hit points.
The other quickling made a rush for the sorcerer, wounding him badly, and raced on through the party. Several attacks of opportunity missed, but the barbarian's prepared attack didn't, and he scored a critical hit with his +2 fey-bane greatsword. The quickling made it through, but now both were primarily concerned with retreat.
Sadly, their attempts to hide was hampered by the monk's awesome perception check, and when she rushed in and attacked, the rest of the party followed and stomped the two to death (actually, one has later escaped, but they don;t need to know that...).
For various reasons, I decided that the grimstalker Teorlion would be alerted and would face the considerable threat the party presented with the Lady in the main tower. The party encountered his pet assassin vine and hacked it down without much trouble before they entered the main tower. Myke used his last levitate to send John up the outside of the tower, while the rest of the party ascended the inside, this time with the magus leading. As the first three party members (and john outside the open window) appeared, the Lady began her captivating dance.
This was less of a success, as she was attempting to captivate Myke (magus, high Will save), Leessin (monk, female, high Will save), and Kefflin (barbarian, with superstition), and all three saved with ease. John, however, was completely zoned.
Myke used vanish to disappear and get in position, saving against the entangle effect on the floor. Leessin failed the save as she moved in, and the grimstalker attacked her with his claws. Ygdrasil aimed a flaming sphere at the grimstalker, while the Lady used her suggestion to make John defend her. This was prophetic as Kefflin attacked her, making his Reflex save and chopping her with his fey-bane sword, and getting another critical hit. She lived, but only just.
John then beaned the barbarian for 24 non-lethal damage with his slingshot, not a wise thing. Myke took his queue, and attacked with spell combat, blasting the Lady with magic missiles and scoring another critical hit on her. She went down, dead, and the entangle effect lifted.
The grimstalker had enough, he was going to run. Using his acrobatics he vaulted out of the window and started to climb down the outside of the tower. This was a less-than-perfect escape plan: the flaming sphere dropped on him, followed by the earthbreaker the barbarian had picked up, the halfling using his ring of feather fall (and eager to make up for his earlier attack on the barbarian) hit him, and lastly the monk vaulted out of the window and put the drop into drop-kick. The monk took some falling damage, but it was worth it as the grimstalker was stunned and was killed when he hit the ground.
Without his DR-bypass, the monk would have been largely unable to get through the low DR of the fey in this encounter. While he didn't get many successful uses of stunning fist, those he got would have been negated and his damage contribution would have been less. As was, the barbarian's critical hits certainly took centre stage, but the monk made a valid contribution by supporting the rogue, drawing attacks, and doing some significant damage to the enemy - as well as making some important Perception checks. Stars of the encounter, though, were the magus and barbarian. The monk player, though, was happy to be able to perform effective stunts like vaulting out of a window 60' up, take out an enemy on the way down, and land (relatively) safely. Booby prize went to the cleric for forgetting he had wood shape...
Keep the updates coming Dabbler, I like how you're keeping us in the loop on how your playtest is going.
Will do Arkady.
What's struck me is the number of encounters even at this level that, had this monk been built differently (and without the changes I made, obviously), he'd have been almost completely ineffective in. For example, a dex-based monk is one of the better builds at higher level, but until you get your agile amulet is damage-poor. Even with drunken strength, the DR 5/cold iron of the fey in this encounter would have completely stimied this damage on some attacks and the monk would be down two feats as well just to make up the difference. Now while this monk didn't dominate the encounter, they were able to effectively contribute.
Well that is the point of it, making the monk viable and able to contribute, and by the looks of it your monk is doing just that. Excellent job so far.
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Indeed, and thank you. I though I would have to amend more than I did, but it's all worked swimmingly...
Two further updates:
First Session: This was largely taken up with housekeeping (kingdom growing) and re-equipping (buying/commissioning kit), after which the party embarked on an exploration to an island they had so far not explored. Boating across a lake, they go their first encounter with an elasmosaur. Being an Undine our monk was happily swimming along next to the boat the party had hired and we rowing with the boatman in the stern. He got a warning that the monster was lurking and warned the party, but there was not much they could do before the lake monster struck the boat from below. Half the party were knocked into the water including the heavily armoured paladin and the boatman.
On round one, the magus got bitten by the monster, and very badly, but exposed itself to the ranger's arrows, and took some damage. At the opposite end of the lake monster the barbarian in the water attacked, and did a lot of damage. It was quite a chaotic fight, in which the monk used his undine swimming speed to get under the lake monster and attack it from below, giving flanking to the rest of the party. In the end, the monster fled for the depths with the barbarian stuck to it by his greatsword, and the monk in pursuit. Between them they killed it (again, the barbarian did the lion's share of the damage) and the monk sliced open it's belly to look for any loot (they got a magic +2 dagger from it).
Second Session:
The party continued to explore, and went down-river for a day. There they were attacked by a random encounter, a manticore that had been praying on the shipping on the river through the wilderness. It came in for a strafing run, throwing tail-spikes at ranger. The party responded with missile fire of their own - even the barbarian carried a bow. It didn't last long, and further explorations revealed the manticore's nest and a cache of loot.
The last encounter was with a giant looking for a drink. A drunken master with a handy haversack carries a LOT of alcohol, so the giant was appropriately bribed, made friendly, and told about a distant tomb he could make into his home and wouldn't be bothered if he didn't eat people.
After that, it was level-up time...
Assessment: some of the second session's encounters played to the monk's weaknesses - he is terrible at ranged combat. Not surprisingly he fared badly, unable to contribute much. However, in the wisp encounter neither did the barbarian, who is melee focussed. The barbarian's bow did contribute more to the manticore encounter, but the monk's crossbow did add a few points of damage. Most of the monk's assistance in the first session came down to his aquatic nature rather than class features, but he used it well. In short, though these encounters played against the class weaknesses, the monk was still able to be a bit-player.
The saga continues...
Present in this session:
John, halfing rogue (scout), Spymaster
Ragnar, dwarf cleric, Counsellor (but calling himself Vizier)
Kafflin, human barbarian, General
Ygdrasil, Aasimar sorcerer, "Quing" (don't ask)
Ilyana, human ranger, Warden
Leessin, undine monk (drunken master), Marshal
The party had the grim task of tracking down the cult of Gyrona, the Hag-Goddess, in their home town of Castleton. This required a lot of skuling around by the spymaster rogue who did the lion's share of the work. Once again the monk was in "assistant" position with his lower stealth but better perception. They traced potential members until they found some acting suspiciously, and trailed them to an abandoned barn. Then the party organised a raid. As most of the cultists were 2nd level commoners, this was not a huge challenge.
Kefflin guarded the escape tunnel, while the rest of the party went in the front door while the cult meeting was in progress. Descending the steps into the barn cellar, Lessin, John, and Ilyana were set upon by wild women with daggers, to little effect. Leessin and John used their Acrobatics to leap from the steps over the cultists and attack the leader. A stunning fist rendered her incapacitated for a round, and then a light mace to the head from a sap-master took her out of the fight while a silence spell ensured she could cast no spells.
Ilyana found herself in an awkward situation of being in the front line and being an archer. She drew her rapier, and promptly got a critical hit and ran through one of her attackers. The cultists then fell over themselves to surrender with their leader down, and another having been knocked unconscious by the monk.
For her part in the murder of a citizen, the priestess of Gyrona was hung. As the other active accomplice to it was the dead cultist, the remainder were given the equivelant of community service sentences.
Assessment: the monk's mobility worked well here, but this was a "below par" encounter the party should have dealt with easily, and did.
After completing a round of kingdom-building, the party went on the prowl again, exploring to the south-east of their kingdom. In the hills there they came upon the spoor of worgs. In fact this pack was led by a winter wolf (random encounter, spiced up a little for a tough party), and was both large and strong. The worgs followed their usual modus operandi and lured the party to their lair, a narrow defile in the hills. The rogue scouted ahead, and although the wolves couldn't see him (awesome stealth) they could smell him and kept low while he marked out the remains of other victims (and loot).
Seeing a trap, the party buffed up Kefflin and sauntered straight in. The winter wolf sprang the trap, leaping out in front of the dispersed party and using his breath weapon. The monk's evasion worked, the barbarian took the brunt of it...and barely even blinked. The monk darted in and used his new +1 shang gou in reach mode to attack, while the ranger shot it.
Then the barbarian hit the wolf, got a confirmed critical, and thanks to enlarge person, bull's strength, and bear's endurance killed the beast in one blow. :(
Then the other dozen wolves hit the party, and the fun started. Kefflin killed another with an attack of opportunity, and Ragnar clipped one with his hammer. The monk was surrounded, with combat reflexes and a reach weapon...He hit all four wolves around him, not doing much damage but wearing down their hit points. Ygdrasil had a saved action and blasted two more with a fireball before the wolves hit.
Everyone but the monk took hits, and Ygdrasil at the back of the party was dragged down. The tide quickly turned, as Leessin targeted her flurry of blows on one wolf after another. Kefflin got to Great Cleave three out of four worgs to death. Ragnar pumped in Prayer and fell back to shield Ygrasil, Ilyana picked off the weakened worgs. In two rounds, eleven worgs were dead and one had fled. Not bad for a day's work.
Assessment: Giving the monk access to all monk weapons gave Leessin a weapon she otherwise wouldn't have, and while it wasn't awesome it gave her options she wouldn't have - having reach and getting a lot of AoOs. This is the first time this feature has really come into play, and it played out well insofar as it was not an overpowered option (1d4+1 damage is not outstanding) but gave new scope (doing it to four enemies around you works nicely).
Another session last night. Present were:
John, halfing rogue (scout), Spymaster
Ragnar, dwarf cleric, Counsellor (but calling himself Vizier)
Kafflin, human barbarian, General
Ygdrasil, Aasimar sorcerer, "Quing" (don't ask)
Ilyana, human ranger, Warden
Myke, dhampire magus, Magister
Leessin, undine monk (drunken master), Marshal
The party terminated their exploration of the Kamelands upon hearing word that the Swordlords of Restov were offering a reward for the head of the troll chief in the area. In their usual fashion they combined the hunting of the trolls with their passion for exploration - especially as they knew where the trolls were lurking, thanks to their encounter with the hill giant.
They set off into the Narlmarches, exploring two hexes of forest before cutting down to the troll's lair. The first hex had no surprises save an old friend, Pervilash the faerie dragon who kindly informed them of the Hodag and where they might find it. The next day they entered the next hex, intent on clearing it of the monster, and Pervilash guided them to it's lair. There they debated the merits of going down a hole, and instead worked out a plan to smoke out the hodag.
Of course, I didn't give them just one hodag with a party this size. I added a second, female hodag, to keep the challenge up to the size of the party. They set some smoke sticks, and took up positions: barbarian, sorcerer, ranger, and magus in front of the entrance, cleric to one side, and rogue and monk climbed the mountain of dead-falls to wait above the entrance.
By the time they were in position, the male hodag was ready to charge them, and charge he did. Hitting the barbarian square on, he tossed him back ten feet. The rogue beaned him for a lot of non-lethal damage with his sling, but didn't stop him; however the thrown tanglefoot bag from the cleric did nail his foot to the ground. The barbarian got to his feet and downed a potion of enlarge person ready to kick butt.
The magus vanished, the ranger cast gravity bow, and the sorcerer then used enlarge on the ranger. Just then, the second hodage came charging out, and zeroed in on the cleric, crunching him with her teeth. The monk had delayed initiative, and now she acted, getting an AoO on the passing hodag and then rushing in to flank it, dodging it's AoO's in return.
Round 2, and the ranger started loosing arrows the size of telegraph poles (well not literally, but close enough). Sadly his dice rolling was down it's usual standard, and he hit nothing. The magus had similarly lousy luck trying a spell-strike with his whip and shocking grasp, and then became the target of the male hodag's ire, taking damage in return.
Then the barbarian's greatsword came down with a critical hit for astronomical damage, and the hodag was left with a hit point crying because it was all alone. The sorcerer calculated the rogue and monk's evasion would work and set off a fireball that burned both hodags, and ended the male hodag's monster career.
Monk, rogue, and cleric between them hammered down the female hodag, with the monk getting another confirmed critical hit to finish it.
The party looted the hodag's lair, took trophies, and searched the rest of the hex before moving on to the trolls the next day...
Troll Lair:
With the hill giant's map, the party found the lair and the hidden path to it easily enough. Rogue and ranger sneaked up the path easily enough to peer through the arrow-slits in the block house, and seeing three trolls (I increased the numbers for the size of the party) they decided to get the rest of the party in.
Meanwhile, I diced for the observation skills of the troll on watch...and he saw the party coming up the path. As they neared the blockhouse they could hear his shouts of warning, and initiative was rolled. The monk was first off the starting block, literally: racing up to the blockhouse he blocked the doorway and used his shang gou to trip the troll preparing to charge the party (thanks to the ki-point for an extra attack on any attack, this was successful). The rest of the party rushed up in a pell-mell fashion; Kefflin the barbarian roared past him and shanked the troll on the deck, while the other trolls homed in on the barbarian.
The sorcerer tossed a fireball through an arrow slit, and a gloriously chaotic scrap ensued. By using his drunken stagger the monk was able to move ten feet a turn without provoking, and made great use of his trip to drop the trolls on the deck. Kefflin just swung again and again, Great Cleaving through trolls and troll-hounds alike. The magus got in on the fun using his whip and spell-strike, the ranger shot into the fray, while the cleric buffed, and a great time was had by all save the trolls.
After that first encounter I closed the table for the night, with everyone ready to continue next week...
Assessment: If anything the monk was struggling due to his inability to deal out serious damage. However this was mitigated by his using trip tactics against the trolls. The player was well aware of how to use good tactics, but in a seven-strong party, he was, as he put it: "struggling to find something I can do effectively someone else can't do better." In a later discussing he did agree that the mobility option was good, and that against high DR targets he was ruling the roost. The problem was that against the kind of foes we've faced to date the monk's abilities are overshadowed by the barbarian's ability to deal out a LOT of hard damage, and the size of the party was becoming a major problem.
In this situation, I can only suggest keeping track of dice rolls and comparing the effect of a non-playtest Monk to a playtest Monk and see which abilities would, or would not have worked.
I can only suspect that the non-playtest Monk would possibly have less-than inadequate in these fights.
I agree, though at this stage the difference is not huge. After talking with the player more today he's decided to stick with the monk after we discussed what he would be able to do with Snake Risoste next level, he decided that this could still be fun. You also have to bear in mind that he is comparing himself to a barbarian wielding a +3-equivelant weapon. I am going to drop in an item for him in the next treasure-hoard, as most other characters have something cool by now: the sorcerer has a wand of wall of fire, the ranger has the stag helm, while the cleric has picked up a lot of minor items. The rogue and magus could use something nice as well, I think, and I know what to equip them with.
I agree, though at this stage the difference is not huge. After talking with the player more today he's decided to stick with the monk after we discussed what he would be able to do with Snake Risoste next level, he decided that this could still be fun. You also have to bear in mind that he is comparing himself to a barbarian wielding a +3-equivelant weapon. I am going to drop in an item for him in the next treasure-hoard, as most other characters have something cool by now: the sorcerer has a wand of wall of fire, the ranger has the stag helm, while the cleric has picked up a lot of minor items. The rogue and magus could use something nice as well, I think, and I know what to equip them with.
Ugh, I know what that's like. My Monk using my own house rules is sometimes compared by the group to the Falchion wielding Fighter or the Barbarian that my GM just gave a +6 equivalent (+5 with a property) weapon at level 9.
I told my GM he'd regret giving that weapon to the Barbarian, for some reason, he thinks it won't be an issue.
Hey all!
I just want to say first and foremost that I love the hell out of what you're doing! I really hope this goes places. That said, I'd love for y'all to take a look at my mods for the monk HERE.
It's very similar to your workup, Dabbler, but it's built around:
1) Full BAB
2) WIS to damage (but not WIS to hit)
I'd really like to know what you guys think about it!
That's understandable, Tels. However they do write some of these weapons into the adventure paths, we just have to roll with it (no pun intended). I guess their logic is that in a standard four-strong party giving the tank a mega-weapon isn't broken because he's not sharing stage with anyone.
I'm dropping in some items for the rest of my player's party to make up the difference for them too, at various stages. For the monk, a pair of deliquescent gloves should even him up nicely; and a few other items for the rest of the party and they won't feel so left out.
Daily Lunatic, I looked at your changes, you and I clearly are thinking along similar lines but I'm not sure about some of your implementation. I don't think wis-to-damage makes any difference without wis-to-hit, and with the magic-fang effect low damage output can be remedied with weapon properties so wis-to-hit is all you need.
Anyway, I have critiqued them - apologies if I come across too harsh, I play a lot of "devil's advocate" at times!
As far as I'm aware, the +6 Weapon wasn't included in the module, it was a choice on the part of the GM, but I could be wrong.
Also, I had a crazy thought, how would a brawler compare in these fights to your playtest Monk?
Good question, and one I will have to take a good long look at...watch this space!
Okay, here's what I whipped up for a brawler:
Brawler Test
Male Human (Taldan) Brawler 6
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +9
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 17 (+6 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 58 (6d10+18)
Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +5; +4 to avoid being knocked prone
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +12/+7 (1d8+6/×2)
Ranged +1 light crossbow +9/+4 (1d8+1/19-20/×2)
Special Attacks brawler's flurry
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Statistics
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Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +6; CMB +11 (+14 grapple); CMD 25 (26 vs. grapple, 29 vs. trip)
Feats Greater Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Snake Sidewind, Snake Style, Toughness
Traits bullied, indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +8 (+12 to avoid being knocked prone), Climb +11, Escape Artist +5, Handle Animal +3, Heal +1, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +3, Knowledge (history) +3, Perception +9, Ride +5, Sense Motive +11, Stealth +2, Survival +1, Swim +8
Languages Common
SQ ac bonus, brawler strike (magic), martial maneuvers, unarmed strike
Combat Gear Potion of barkskin +2 (4); Other Gear +2 Chain shirt, +1 Light crossbow, Amulet of mighty fists +1, Ring of protection +1, 26 PP, 5 GP
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Martial Maneuvers () (Ex) - 0/0
Potion of barkskin +2 - 0/4
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +1 (Ex) When a brawler wears light or no armor, she gains a dodge bonus to AC and CMD.
Brawler Strike (Magic) (Su) Your unarmed strikes are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming DR.
Brawler's Flurry (Ex) Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with unarmed strikes or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does
Bullied +1 to hit with unarmed AoEs.
Greater Grapple Maintaining a grapple is a move action, allowing you to make 2 checks a round.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Martial Maneuvers () (Ex) Spend a move action to gain the benefit of a combat feat for 1 minute.
Snake Sidewind Gain a bonus to avoid being knocked prone, and use Sense Motive check to confirm critical hits
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Unarmed Strike (1d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Now comparing him with the monk from the game:
Marshall Leessin Lodovka
Female Undine Monk (Drunken Master) 6
LN Medium outsider (aquatic, native)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +13
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 19, flat-footed 17 (+1 armor, +3 Dex, +1 deflection, +5 untyped)
hp 45 (6d8+12)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +9
Defensive Abilities evasion; Resist cold 5
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Offense
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Speed 50 ft., swim 30 ft.
Melee +1 shang gou +9 (1d4+1/×2) and
. . dagger +8 (1d4/19-20/×2) and
. . masterwork temple sword +9 (1d8/19-20/×2) and
. . sai +8 (1d4/×2) and
. . unarmed strike +9 (1d8+1/×2)
Ranged masterwork shuriken +9 (1d2/×2) and
. . underwater light crossbow +7 (1d8/19-20/×2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows, stunning fist (6/day, DC 17)
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10
Base Atk +4; CMB +10 (+12 grapple, +12 trip); CMD 23 (25 vs. grapple, 25 vs. trip)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Snake Style, Stunning Fist
Traits child of the temple, noble born - lodovka
Skills Acrobatics +17 (+25 jump, +23 to jump), Climb +5, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (nobility) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +13, Perform (string instruments) +4, Profession (brewer) +8, Sense Motive +15, Stealth +8, Survival +6, Swim +13
Languages Aquan, Common
SQ ac bonus, amphibious, drunken ki, fast movement, high jump, hydrated vitality, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, slow fall, stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike
Combat Gear Elemental gem (water), Potion of cure light wounds (3), Potion of cure moderate wounds, Potion of enlarge person, Potion of pass without trace; Other Gear +1 Shang gou, Crossbow bolts (20), Dagger, Masterwork Shuriken (25), Masterwork Temple sword, Sai, Underwater light crossbow, Boots of elvenkind, Bracers of armor +1, Handy haversack (10 @ 27.06 lbs), Ring of protection +1, Applejack (per gallon), Bedroll, Canteen, Flint and steel, Grappling hook, Silk rope, Trail rations (3), 50 PP, 3 GP
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Applejack (per gallon) - 0/1
Crossbow bolts - 0/20
Dagger - 0/1
Deflect Arrows (1/round) - 0/1
Drunken Ki (Su) - 0/3
Hydrated Vitality (12 HP/day) - 0/12
Ki Pool (Su) - 0/7
Masterwork Shuriken - 0/25
Potion of cure light wounds - 0/3
Potion of cure moderate wounds - 0/1
Potion of enlarge person - 0/1
Potion of pass without trace - 0/1
Stunning Fist (6/day) (DC 17) - 0/6
Trail rations - 0/3
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +5 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Amphibious (Ex) You can survive indefinitely on land.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deflect Arrows (1/round) While have an empty hand, negate one ranged weapon hit you are aware of (unless from a massive weapon).
Drunken Ki (Su) Drunken Ki pool allows the use of Ki powers.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+20') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +4/+4/-1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
High Jump (+6/+26 with Ki point) (Ex) +6 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Hydrated Vitality (12 HP/day) Gain fast healing 2 when submerged completely in natural, flowing, water.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Slow Fall 30' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (6/day) (DC 17) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Swimming (30 feet) You have a Swim speed.
Unarmed Strike (1d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
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Zen Warrior: A monk may choose to use their Wisdom bonus rather than their strength or dexterity bonus for attacks made with special monk weapons, combat maneuvers, or with the monk’s unarmed strike.
Currently, +4 modifier to hit.
A monk’s unarmed strike treats the hardness or damage resistance (of any type) of a target as less by one point for every level of monk the character possesses.
Currently, reduce DR by 1
Amending the Ki-Pool entry as follows:
As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to gain a +1 enhancement bonus as the spell greater magic fang. At 7th level this increases to +2, at 10th level, his unarmed attacks are +3, at 13th level +4, and at 16th level his unarmed attacks gain a +5 enhancement bonus.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack a round at his highest attack bonus.
In addition, he can spend 1 point to move 20 feet in a swift action.
The monk is proficient with all weapons of the type "monk".
Looking at the two, they do not seem so unbalanced to me. The Brawler has slightly worse saves, and less special abilities, but better offence. Precisely why the brawler gets ki-strike I do not know, as they do not have ki, but I'll let that pass as with the AoMF it really is a moot point. I think my monk design has the edge against DR-equipped targets, but otherwise there is not a huge amount to choose between them.
Kind of what I suspected, and what the playtest threads have shown. Better offence, less defense.
Something to keep in mind with the brawler though, is they can flurry with the 'close' fighter weapon group, and monk weapons.
Another thing to note is that the Brawler CAN take use the Brawler's Flurry as TWF-prerequisite feats - this opens up a lot more opportunities for him as well. Close weapons mean shields are usable by him, so he can be a fist & board fighter and get a sky-high AC.
The Brawler is actually pretty well balanced with other melee fighters, all things considered. Offensively he's a lot better than the monk, and defensively the only feature he's really lost is the good Will save - which is easy to work around. AC, he's probably at least as good on; skills he's got less proficiencies but the monk was never a skills-monkey anyway.
A lot better than the core monk but with a totally different RP feel, is how I would sum up the brawler. I think it's fairly well balanced with my monk changes, though.
Another thing to note is that the Brawler CAN take use the Brawler's Flurry as TWF-prerequisite feats - this opens up a lot more opportunities for him as well. Close weapons mean shields are usable by him, so he can be a fist & board fighter and get a sky-high AC.
The Brawler is actually pretty well balanced with other melee fighters, all things considered. Offensively he's a lot better than the monk, and defensively the only feature he's really lost is the good Will save - which is easy to work around. AC, he's probably at least as good on; skills he's got less proficiencies but the monk was never a skills-monkey anyway.
A lot better than the core monk but with a totally different RP feel, is how I would sum up the brawler. I think it's fairly well balanced with my monk changes, though.
Of note, he doesn't have shield proficiency, so he takes the armor check penalty on attack rolls. Once you get masterwork/mithral shields, this means nothing though as they reduce the ACP on shields to nothing.
I wish the Monk's Flurry was worded more like the Brawler's Flurry, so Monk's could take things like two-weapon rend, or two-weapon defense etc.
It is what it is, and I don't see the need to amend the monk's flurry right now - it goes beyond what I set out to do. In some ways I preferred when FoB was something other than TWFing, and you could take both...but there are issues with that approach, too.
Another update from last night:
The party continued on into the "troll trouble" lair. I had boosted the enemy by adding an extra troll in the barracks and made a moss-troll witch 5 to give them some spell-support.
Unfortunately, the good tactics they used in the earlier troll encounter were lacking in the early part of this session. The dwarf cleric was present but the player was not, so I had him hanging back and only supplying healing support.
The party found and killed the troll-hounds in their kennel with ease. Then they forayed deeper into the complex of tunnels, attracting the attention of the two-headed troll...and that's where things fell apart.
The barbarian who was their heavy-hitter rolled a low initiative, the monk and rogue rolled high. The rogue decided to throw caution to the winds, as he had adequate back-up (he thought) and used his charge and sneak attack feature to charge past the connecting tunnel and hit the troll with his rapier. This had the same effect as pricking it with a sewing needle. A fireball from the sorcerer singed it a bit, but it should have been clear this was a tough two-headed troll.
The monk charged in to support the rogue, and scored hits as well, but did not a lot of damage.
Then the trolls in the barracks came to see what the commotion was. The magus moved on the same initiative, and managed to web two of them but the third made it into the passageway, blocking the route to aid the monk and rogue, who now realised they had bitten off a lot more than they could chew. Despite more fireballs, and arrows from the ranger, the troll tore them both down to negatives while the barbarian and magus dealt with the other troll. Even then, more trolls were ripping through the webs (now burning).
The two-headed troll went down to arrows after further flooring the ranger's elk companion as well. The other trolls were downed, but the magus also went into negatives. The ranger has a wand of CLW and used it to restore monk, rogue, and elk. The dhampir magus had some potions of inflict wounds which were fed to him, but was still perilously weak.
As the webs finally burned out, the party got grogily to their feet and were ready for round #2...ish.
They got advance warning of a few of the remaining trolls' approach when they called out to the two-headed troll in Giant, but as only the halfling spoke giant, the party's attempt to bluff the trolls failed. They took up ambush positions, and the ranger tried luring them in with a volley of arrows (rock troll, leader, and troll-witch were now in the barracks, at the far end of the room).
Naturally, they decided to bring the party to where their larger size and numbers would make a difference, and the leader tossed a bead from his necklace of fireballs at the party. The sorcerer replied with her last fireball, but the rest of the party dithered about attacking, so the witch webed the party and the leader tossed a second fireball-bead.
It was obvious the party had to take the fight to the enemy as both sorcerer and magus went down to the fireballs. The rogue grabbed a wand of CLW to start healing the fallen with Use Magic Device. The barbarian rushed into the barracks to take the heat, knowing he wouldn't last long but hoping to buy time. The troll leader took the bait and attacked him and they exchanged fairly grievous blows.
The rock troll charged the ranger who was peppering the leader with arrows, but passed within AoO range of the monk who tripped him with his shang gou. Sorcerer and magus got to their feet again, smoking slightly. The witch targeted the barbarian with an ear piercing scream which he failed the save on, and was left reeling.
At last the monk got his mojo, rushing in and tripping the troll leader, who got up and promptly smacked him hard. Undeterred the monk darted between leader and witch and spending a ki-point for an extra attack tripped both. This is a stunt he couldn't have pulled without my changes - he wouldn't have proficiency with the shang gou, and he wouldn't be able to move and strike twice. It didn't slow the witch much, but the leader was prevented from full attacking either monk or barbarian.
The rock troll fell to a series of attacks by magus (whip with spellstrike and shocking grasp), sorcerer (flaming sphere), ranger (shooting arrows), and the ranger's elk.
The barbarian recovered, charged the witch and killed her with one critical hit. The leader was then targeted next with spells and arrows while on the ground. This didn;t kill him until he failed the reflax save to the flame breath, and, well, he WAS wearing a necklace of fireballs. Only one detonated, but it was enough!
Searching the bodies they found a set of deliquescent gloves the monk requisitioned - they will be ideal for him as he swaps between weapons a great deal.
Assessment: while the monk started badly, this went from a fight he failed in to one he saved the day in. The extra ki-attack on any attack action is a godsend, especially when your damage is light, as the monk's is. If he'd chosen to trip the two-headed troll that fight might have gone differently - at the least it would have lasted longer. The player is appreciating the tactics better, but is a little frustrated with low damage output as well a less than amazing AC. Sadly the party philosophy is to bring the AC of the weakest up to speed, rather than enhancing any one character's. This will be discussed at the next session...
Latest Update:
Because of the relative strength of the party I upgraded the encounter that was intended for one with a young adult green dragon, a lizardman sorcerer (4) and five lizardman rangers (2).
The party were distracted by the lizardmen, who got close enough in dense undergrowth to hurl hunga mungas at the party. The party's response was to fireball them, after which monk and rogue rushed in. The latter didn't achive much, but the former pulled off a double-trip with his shang gou, while the ranger started potting the injured lizardmen.
At this moment the dragon rushed the back end of the party, hitting them with his breath weapon, while the sorcerer on his back aimed an acid arrow into the party. The barbarian, who had scored low initiative, responded with his classic charge and hit the dragon hard, after which the sorcerer enlarged him. Considering his options, the dragon decided to fly away from the fight and circle to attack again. Unfortunately this didn;t make him immune to AoO's, and a lucky critical from the barbarian ended his fight. My consolation was that while his landing on the magus discharged a shocking grasp into him that confirmed the kill, it did squash the magus for some damage.
Three of the lizardmen that had survived thanks to the monk's trip-a-thon now surrendered, and the rogue brought down the sorcerer with temporary damage.
Interrogating their prisoners, they found that the group had been evicted by boggards from the Hooktongue Slough, and had tried to subvert the local lizardman tribe but were rejected as that tribe was allied to the party and wouldn't entertain the green dragon's plans. The party decided to talk to them, and the local lizardmen accepted the newcomers into their tribe.
The party continued on their way back to their home. On the way they crossed the ford of the Gudrin River, and there saw suspicious tracks that they identified as the largest owlbear any of them had ever seen. This beast had actually just attacked their settlement, but they were unaware of this and opted to track it anyway. Trailing it to it's lair, they glimpsed a human on the ridge above, but couldn't get up to him easily.
I'd actually upped the ante on this encounter by adding Eirik and a few of his men still alive, and cursed into fey creatures by the ring's magic. Quite mad, they waited to attack at the opportune moment. The party explored the outer area of the cave, finding the midden piles and not alerting the violet fungi with their scouting. When they entered in force, the fungi shrieked and attacked.
This alerted the owlbear, and it rumbled out of the cave below. Barbarian, magus, and rogue engaged it, while the monk diverted to deal with Eirik attacking the party's rear with his remaining men. Eirikk himself attacked in melee, while they hovered and used bows.
In the first round the barbarian once again did a lot of damage, as did magus (using spell strike and his whip) and the rogue from flanking, although the latter took an AoO. The sorcerer hurled in a fireball that killed some fungi, and the ranger shot the remaining fungi. The cleric buffed with prayer, and the monk dodged a hail of arrows to trip the attacking Eirik.
Round 2, and the owlbear tore the barbarian down to zero hit points in one attack. The sorcerer throw a wall of fire across the entrance to the cave, blocking Eirik and his men out. Eirik picked himself up and took damage diving through the flames, only for the monk to promptly trip him and hit him a few more times.
Magus and rogue kept hammering damage in, and the ranger did a lot of damage with animal-bane arrows on the owlbear. With his last gasp, the barbarian delivered thirty points of damage and decapitated the beast. Eirik was in a stand-up knock-down fight with the monk, who used his shang gou to trip and then followed the mantra of "always kick a man who's down", finishing off Eirik with a little help from a spiritual weapon.
The party are levelling, but do not yet realise this fight isn't over as the shambling mound and cave spiders are yet to arrive...
Assessment: The deliquescent gloves upped the monk's damage nicely, but the player is still feeling frustrated at his lack of damage output. Otherwise, the monk has used the shang gou to become a tripmeister, which against many of the foes he is fighting is very effective. Against others, not at all. His mobility is excellent, but I'm not sure how he'll feel when the barbarian starts pouncing. I'm actually worried that my changes didn't go far enough, on reflection. We shall see how next level pans out.
Definitely interested to see where this goes. Thanks for the updates, Dabbler!
You're welcome Witch's Knight.
What level is everyone by this point? I noticed the Sorcerer cast a wall of fire which would indicate 8th level, or using consumables. I ask because I recently dropped out of my GM's Kingmaker campaign (due to clashes with the GM over the running of the game) and we didn't hit 8th level until just before fighting the BBEG of book 3. The group was of similar size to yours, so I'm wondering if maybe he was 'hosing' us on XP.
What are the static damage bonuses for the Monk and Barbarian? I'm assuming it's something like high strength + power attack for approximately +12 strength when raging, and +9 Power Attack and a roughly +2 bonus for ~+23 damage bonus when raging? I think your Monk went Dex/Wis prime, so unless he's got an agile amulet and Power Attack/Piranha Strike, he's going to have a very low damage bonus.
I know you just gave him some deliquescent gloves, but it might be he needs a damage boost from elsewhere. I don't know if he's getting his ability score to damage or not, but if he isn't, he could use a boost from there. If he is getting his ability score to damage, maybe encourage him to take Power Attack/Piranha Strike?
The sorcerer picked up a wand of wall of fire, the party were 6th level at the time of the encounter and have just levelled to 7th which is where they should be for the end of book 2. Yes, your DM was either hosing you or else deliberately keeping your levels down. Also, Kingmaker should add 100xp per hex explored, an award I've given per character rather than for the party.
Although the party are large, I try and keep their levels at those recommended, as this assumes certain abilities and skill levels will be available that may not be the case with a lower-level party. Instead I increase the difficulties of encounters by adding in additional foes and making a "single monster encounter" either a sequence of encounters or else a single monster with minions.
The barbarian when raging and Power Attacking with Furious Focus is dishing 2d6+17 at +14 to hit with a +2 fey-bane greatsword. The monk was doing only 1d8+1 at +9 to hit. That +2 weapon has made a BIG difference so far, I have to concede. At 7th level, the monk's attacks rise to +2 unarmed, so the barbarian should be hitting at +15 (raging) and the monk at +11, which is acceptable.
I really am starting to think wis-to-damage instead of strength may be desirable at higher level, either through the guided property or some other way. I had looked to avoid that, but this has made it really, really clear that DPR really IS important if you are a combat class. There's just no getting away from it. However, the lack of bespoke items is another reason this could be a problem. The party have focussed on building their kingdom, not accumulating loot, and the monk is still very dependent on specialist items. I always envisaged that items like the deliquescent gloves and properties on the AoMF would make up the damage difference; I may have to drop in more items but I was considering that anyway for some of the other characters...
The barbarian already has his greatsword, the sorcerer has the wand of wall of fire which bumps up his wealth.
I'm thinking of placing:
Bracers of Archery for the ranger.
Shocking Amulet of Mighty Fists for the monk.
+2 scorpion whip for the magus (gives him a decent weapon).
+1 agile rapier for the rogue (he's struggling conventional damage-wise).
+2 mithral heavy shield for the cleric.
This will bring them all up to or past WBL guidelines, as the next adventure is likely to be loot-lite for a while.
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Well, the Monk could either have an Agile Amulet or Guided amulet instead of a shocking fist amulet. I'm not sure which is higher, his Wisdom or Dexterity, but its likely to be better, from a DPR standpoint, than another d6 of damage. Especially when stat boosters come into play.
On the damage dice front, my Monk in Legacy of Fire is using some pretty similar house rules. However, he is a Monk of the Four Winds, and also happens to have a special weapon that 'scales' with your level automatically, but the GM ruled it to be in the form of Monk Hand Wraps so it's kind of a hand-slot version of the AoMF.
Currently, it's a +2 frost weapon, and as a Monk of the Four Winds, he gains Elemental Fist that scales in damage with his level, which is +2d6 damage of his choice on his attack. He also uses a Rod of Balance to really augment his jump checks (and AC since he uses Crane Style). Throw this all together, and one of my Monk's "signature moves" is that he does a sort of 'jumping charge' by leaping high into the air, and augmenting his attack with falling damage. Sure, he gets hurt too, but he also only takes half-falling damage.
Here is his character sheet, and as you might see, he has a crazy high jump check (9 ranks +3 class skill, +4 dex, +9 Monk level, +10 from Rod of Balance, +12 high movement speed) that he can further augment with a Ki Point. On average, my Monk can make DC 57 jump checks, 77 if he spends a Ki point. Since the Rod of Balance doubles the distance jumped, this means he can easily jump 28 and 38 feet respectively. So My Monk can consistently add between 3d6 and 4d6 extra damage on his first attack. I imagine it looks like this.
Long-winded, I know, but what I'm pointing out, is my Monk can deal lots of damage dice on a hit if he needs to. All told, he gets 1d10 from his unarmed strike, 1d6 from the frost property, 2d6 from an Elemental Fist, and between 3d6 and 4d6 from falling damage. While rolling all the damage dice is fun, and he can hit really hard if he needs too, it slows down gameplay a little bit. It also isn't very consistent, and also doesn't stack up to the party's fighter or barbarian who are both doing about 2d6 +20 on every hit, vs. my Monk's one super-kick.
Well, the Monk could either have an Agile Amulet or Guided amulet instead of a shocking fist amulet. I'm not sure which is higher, his Wisdom or Dexterity, but its likely to be better, from a DPR standpoint, than another d6 of damage. Especially when stat boosters come into play.
Indeed he is wisdom-strong (I did post up the stats up-thread), although I cannot find "guided" in Hero Lab, which is a pain. I'm not averse to the damage output being low, if there is a way to make up for it...but that doesn't seem to be happening.
Currently we are looking at 1d8+2 base damage, with +1d6 from gloves and +1d6 (maybe) from an amulet, and a possible +1d6 from drunken strength. That's actually not too bad, save that the ki is more often used for a bonus attack, not bonus damage.
The other point is that the monk is still a whopping +4 behind the raging barbarian to hit. I'm wondering if more hits would outweigh less damaging hits...that was the original idea, after all. The other full BAB classes for the most part boost their accuracy in some way (save the cavelier), perhaps that's the direction I should push further in? The simplest answer to that would be to bump up Zen Warrior by adding the AC bonus onto the to-hit number (regardless of which hitting stat is used). That would give our monk a +1 bonus to hit at this level, rising to +2 at 8th level, +3 at 12th etc.
Text I would add to Zen Warrior: "Regardless of which ability modifier is used, the monk adds his AC bonus to his number to hit with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons."
Thoughts/feelings?
Edit: Found "Guided" at last! Now I can use this maybe...1d8+6+1d6 is not bad damage. Will hold off on the attack bonus changes until I have some feedback.
One of my changes (I outlined the 'fixes' that apply to my Monk on his charactersheet), is just straight up adding Wisdom to his hit in addition to his Strength/Dexterity score. I've been hitting fairly consistently, although my damage is really low without the additional damage dice. On a non-jump, non-elemental fist attack, he does 1d10+3+1d6 cold which averages out to 12 points of damage.
If I were to add an ability score to damage (such as Dex), his damage would go up to ~16 points, which isn't too bad considering he primarily acts as a shield for the party.
I think the biggest factor for your Monk is he needs some sort of ability score to damage, and he needs to be more accurate. Adding his AC bonus to accuracy and the Guided property should help him quite nicely.
I think so too. I'm happy to leave damage bonus to weapon properties, but the accuracy is a must. Without it he's got poor accuracy to contend with as well as poor damage, and that just doesn't work even with the DR bypass (which hasn't truly kicked in yet anyway).