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With credits to Will Johnson and Mike Lindner as well, some of the VOs have been trying to work up some sort of document to help clarify this while keeping it simple enough to fit on one page. I've already saved this as a .pdf and if people like it I can upload it to the GM shared resources.
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Light Levels:
• Supernaturally Dark - Just like dark but darkvision does not work.
• Dark - Effectively blind w/o darkvision. 50% miss chance (total concealment), lose Dex bonus to AC, –2 penalty to AC, and –4 penalty on Perception checks that rely on sight and most Str and Dex skill checks.
• Dim Light - 20% miss chance Concealment w/o darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. Can make a Stealth check to conceal self.
• Normal Light - Just like bright light but no penalties for light sensitivity or light blindness.
• Bright Light - All characters can see clearly. Can't use Stealth unless invisible or has cover. Penalties for light sensitivity and light blindness apply.
Sight:
• Low-light vision - Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light.
• Darkvision - See normally plus dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
Regular light sources: (These change the ambient (non-magical) lighting of the area)
• Candle - creates dim light to 5'.
• Lamp - creates normal light to 15' and increases the ambient light by one step (dark to dim or dim to light) out another 15'.
• Torch - creates normal light to 20' and increases the ambient light by one step (dark to dim or dim to light) out another 20'.
• Hooded Lantern - creates normal light to 30' and increases the ambient light by one step (dark to dim or dim to light) out another 30'.
• Bullseye Lantern - creates a cone of normal light to 60' and increases the ambient light by one step (dark to dim or dim to light) out another 60'.
• Sunrod - creates normal light to 30' and increases the ambient light by one step (dark to dim or dim to light) out another 30'.
Spells:
• Darkness - Drops the lighting one step in a 20' radius (no lower than dark). It also prevents equal or lower-level magical and all non-magical light sources from raising the ambient light. It also can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower level.
• Deeper Darkness - This drops the lighting two steps in a 60' radius (all the way down to supernaturally dark). It prevents lower-level magical and non-magical light sources from raising the ambient light. It also can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower level.
• Dust of Twilight - Extinguishes non-magical lights and dispels all light spells of 2nd level or lower in a 10' area.
• Light - creates normal light to 20' and increases the ambient light by one step (dark to dim or dim to light) out another 20'.
• Dancing Lights - creates up to four light sources that give light to 20' and increases the ambient light by one step (dark to dim or dim to light) out another 20'.
• Continual Flame - creates light to 20' and increases the ambient light by one step (dark to dim or dim to light) out another 20'. Can be used to counter or dispel darkness spells of equal or lower level.
• Daylight - creates bright light to 60' and increases the ambient light by one step (dark to dim, dim to normal, or normal light to bright light) out another 60'. When brought within a magical darkness, both daylight and the darkness effects are temporarily negated where they overlap. Daylight can also be used to counter or dispel any darkness spell of equal or lower level.
Two possible solutions for magical (supernatural) darkness:
1. A Heightened Continual Flame spell. At 4th level it functions fine in Darkness spells of 3rd level or lower.
2. Daylight and a non-magical light source. The magical light sources all counter each other and a torch or sunrod will then function normally.
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and defining "Ambient Light" in the first place should be easy, since it's in the CRB:
It's just whatever the light level is in the area before people start throwing adventurers/torches/spells around :)
So sunlight would be bright light, as the CRB details, and under a forest canopy would be normal light, etc. Darkness/Deeper Darkness wouldn't extinguish the sun, since the sun creates the ambient light in the first place - it stops non-magical sources from raising the ambient light level.
Technically I guess that means if you were in normal light under a tree canopy and someone cast Deeper Darkness to make it Dark and then someone cut down a tree, Deeper Darkness would, RAW, prevent the now-direct sunlight from raising the ambient from normal to bright, but that would be a YMMV call I think heh.
Oh yea, and one other important thing!
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• Normal Light - Just like bright light but no penalties for light sensitivity or light blindness.
• Bright Light - All characters can see clearly. Can't use Stealth unless invisible or has cover. Penalties for light sensitivity and light blindness apply.
Bolded parts create an error in your definition of normal light. Had you just described normal light instead of referencing bright light, you'd have been fine. ;)
2. Daylight and a non-magical light source. The magical light sources all counter each other and a torch or sunrod will then function normally.
"The magical light sources all counter each other"? Huh?
What I think you're *trying* to say is that in daylight's special "negate in the overlap" zone with deeper darkness, the negation of the latter means DD is no longer suppressing your nonmagical light sources. Although, that would seem to raise the question "Then wouldn't it also no longer be suppressing my other magical light sources?"
There's actually a fair bit of fuzziness on what happens within the overlap of daylight/deeper darkness. On the one hand, if the negated area operates as though neither spell were active, then all other light sources would function as normal within the negation zone. But then again, that would also mean that bringing in a second DD would re-darken the negation zone (as daylight's ability to negate DD is already itself being negated), but running it that way means there's an area where the light level is lower with two DD's than it would be if there were only one DD, which is pretty much the definition of "stacking", which the darkness spells explicitly do not do.
So... yeah.
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Ah, ok, I must have inserted the word "ambient" in my brain, but this is the section that details what constitutes bright/normal/dim light:
In an area of bright light, all characters can see clearly. Some creatures, such as those with light sensitivity and light blindness, take penalties while in areas of bright light. A creature can't use Stealth in an area of bright light unless it is invisible or has cover. Areas of bright light include outside in direct sunshine and inside the area of a daylight spell.
Normal light functions just like bright light, but characters with light sensitivity and light blindness do not take penalties. Areas of normal light include underneath a forest canopy during the day, within 20 feet of a torch, and inside the area of a light spell.
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
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Ambient light is whatever is creating light in an area that is non-magical.
You don't go into your dimly lit house and turn the lights on and say,
"The ambient light is dim, but I turned the lights on."
If you walk into a room where the lights are on, you'd say the ambient light was light.
So a torch, sunrod, lichen, the Sun, a fire, et. al. would constitute things that create the ambient light.
You can change the ambient light in an area with a torch, before, during or after a Darkness effect has taken place.
It would be silly to rule that I walk into a dark room with my torch, creating an area of light and dim light, and someone casts darkness on me and suppresses my torch light, but the minute someone casts continual flame or pulls out an everburning torch the two cancel each other out and ambient light prevails... but its all still dark because my torch isn't considered ambient light?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It would be silly to rule that I walk into a dark room with my torch, creating an area of light and dim light, and someone casts darkness on me and suppresses my torch light, but the minute someone casts continual flame or pulls out an everburning torch the two cancel each other out and ambient light prevails
And the reason that would be silly is because the whole "cancel each other out and ambient light prevails" thing is specific to the interaction of daylight and deeper darkness. No other combination of light and dark spells/effects create that circumstance. It is a special case that is a property of the daylight spell, not a general rule on how light and dark work.
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It would be silly to rule that I walk into a dark room with my torch, creating an area of light and dim light, and someone casts darkness on me and suppresses my torch light, but the minute someone casts continual flame or pulls out an everburning torch the two cancel each other out and ambient light prevailsAnd the reason that would be silly is because the whole "cancel each other out and ambient light prevails" thing is specific to the interaction of daylight and deeper darkness. No other combination of light and dark spells/effects create that circumstance. It is a special case that is a property of the daylight spell, not a general rule on how light and dark work.
Ok, so change my statement to deeper darkness and daylight and you still have the silliness.
Why would I care to negate the effects of a BBEG's deeper darkness if I can't see in the dark anyway, and the room was dark to begin with and I needed a torch to see?
Defining ambient light as the light level in an area prior to a manufactured light coming into the picture essentially means that once deeper darkness is cast, no matter what other light source you use, unless it is heightened, your torch doesn't matter and if you don't have Dark Vision you are screwed.
So in effect, makes this entire conversation a moot point for any races but those who can see in the dark normally.
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So I have a question, how does the fact that some magical weapons shed light like a torch come into play? Is that light always canceled out by a darkness because it sheds light like a torch and because torches are snuffed the light from your weapon is as well or does the enhancement bonus of the magic weapon come into play in determining if it still creates light.
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The light shedding of a weapon is magical and should be treated as such.
The "like a torch" is simply to define what the shed light effect is.
I would treat it like the light spell in regards to how it is effect by stuff.
Ah okay, that makes sense that it would be the light spell, the wording is almost identical.
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Seraphimpunk's point regarding the description of low light vision leads me to believe that lowlight vision treats dim illumination as normal illumination... Is that actually a supportable reading, in others' opinions?
Lowlight just extends the range - so Lowlight vision can see twice as far as someone else can (so a torch in an otherwise dark place would give them normal vision to 40' and dim vision to another 40').
*very happy this thread has been wholly constructive while he was out running Crypt of the Everflame*
Seraphimpunk's point regarding the description of low light vision leads me to believe that lowlight vision treats dim illumination as normal illumination... Is that actually a supportable reading, in others' opinions?Lowlight just extends the range - so Lowlight vision can see twice as far as someone else can (so a torch in an otherwise dark place would give them normal vision to 40' and dim vision to another 40').
*very happy this thread has been wholly constructive while he was out running Crypt of the Everflame*
Low-light vision doesn't just extend range. It has a second effect listed in the glossary:
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
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Player: "so I can see normally for 80' around the torch, 'cause I see in dim light as well as I can see during the day"
That's not what that line in the glossary says. The line in the glossary says you can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as you can see during the day.
EDIT: additional explanation and clarification to Scenario C -
Let's imagine three scenarios. Scenario A is set indoors, underground, in a dungeon. Ambient light conditions are dark. Player with low-light vision is holding a torch. She can see normally out to 40' as it is normal light. The region from 40' to 80' has its light level raised one step to dim light. Creatures in that dim light region between 40'-80' are granted 20% miss chance due to concealment. Past 80' is ambient dark light and creatures there have total concealment.
Scenario B is set outdoors, clear skies, on a moonlit night. Ambient conditions are dim. Player with low-light vision is holding a torch. She can see normally out to 40' as it is normal light. The region from 40' to 80' has its light level raised one step to normal light. Creatures in that normal light region between 40'-80' have no concealment. Past 80' is ambient dim light due to moonlit conditions and creatures there have no concealment to the low-light vision player as they can see in moonlight as well as they can see during the day.
Scenario C is set indoors, inside an abandoned cathedral with a patchwork roof, on a moonlit night. GM rules the ambient light conditions as dim light and reminds players with low-light vision that they are indoors. Player with low-light vision is holding a torch. She can see normally out to 40' as it is normal light. The region from 40' to 80' has its light level raised one step to normal light. Creatures in that region between 40'-80' have no concealment. Past 80' is ambient dim and creatures there are granted 20% miss chance due to concealment because it is indoors.
I think I got all that right.
One more addition to my Scenario C above... If a creature happened to be outside the cathedral but in line of sight to the player with low-light vision, say through an open door or window, they'd have no concealment because they're now in moonlight. This can make for some exciting and dynamic fights and I think that's cool.
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Thanks for putting this together - it's probably one of the most confusing set of rules in the game.
I just have a little nit-pick you might want to look at before you publish your document.
Sight:
• Low-light vision - Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light.
• Darkvision - See normally plus dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
There are many creatures (including some valid character options) that allow darkvision at different ranges. You might want to consider:
Sight:
• Low-light vision - Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light.
• Darkvision - See normally plus dark areas within range of darkvision (usually 60 feet). A creature can't hide within range of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
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but mechanicly how does this work in game?
are we saying that someone with low light vision can see normally in dim light? that's going to make the torch thing even odder.
judge: "You can see normally for 40 feet around the torch, and you can in dim light for another 40'"
Player: "so I can see normally for 80' around the torch, 'cause I see in dim light as well as I can see during the day"???
No, he sees 40 feet normally, the next forty feet is darkness. That, he sees as dim light.
Someone with low-light vision sees dim light as normal light, and some distance of darkness as dim light.
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I disagree about the possibility of excitement or dynamic enjoyment based around MORE complicated lighting rules.
It's not that complicated. Here, let me just draw up a flowchart and-- Hey! Where's everyone going? Come back!
Assume indoors and ambient dark conditions:
A1) 1, 2, 3, and 4
A2) 3 and 4
B1) 1, 2, and 3
B2) 2 and 3
C) Assuming the goblins are still 25', 45', 65', and 85', the situation is unchanged from B as all targets are outside of the 20' sphere of influence of darkness.
Now, I have to draw this out on paper... This gets a tad complicated.
If, however, the goblins are at 20', 40', 60', and 80' like in A, then the goblins and their miss chances are:
1) 50%
2) 0%
3) 20%
4) 20%
D) If at B distances, all of the above with 0% miss chance. If at A distances, goblin 1 is at 50% miss chance and the rest are at 0% miss chance.
I made light templates out of white and purple pipe cleaners just to handle light/darkness in Council of Thieves. So many tieflings.
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Is "supernaturally dark" a light level below darkness? Or is it just "darkness" where darkvision doesn't work?
If it's the latter, can you just light up a torch after deeper darkness is active and then watch as light goes from "supernaturally dark" to "dim light" where deeper darkness is still active?
Is "supernaturally dark" a light level below darkness? Or is it just "darkness" where darkvision doesn't work?
Darkvision works in darkness. It does not work in supernatural darkness.
If it's the latter, can you just light up a torch after deeper darkness is active and then watch as light goes from "supernaturally dark" to "dim light" where deeper darkness is still active?
Mundane light sources have no effect inside areas of magical darkness.
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Sorry, I didn't ask that first question very well - I meant to say "Or is it (ie. supernatural darkness) the same as "darkness" except that darkvision doesn't work?
Basically I'm trying to figure out that if you wanted to raise "supernaturally dark" up one level, would it go to "darkness" or to "dim light" ? But to be honest, I'm not even sure how you'd do this.
I've just re-read deeper darkness/darkness, and it's got a mins/lvl duration, it's not instantaneous, which answers the second question - you can't bring in a light source immediately after its been cast to change the light level.
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But mechanicly how does this work?
Say the elf is an archer, and he is standing in the same square as a torch.
There are 4 goblins at the following distance from him.1) 20'
2) 40'
3) 60'
4) 80'A1) which can he see to shot at?
A2) Which has a 20% miss chance?
Using a torch which spreads 20 feet normal light, and 20 feet dim light (out to a maximum range of 40 feet). This means that an elf sees 40 feet normal light, and 40 feet dim light (out to a maximum range of 80 feet).
A1) Goblin 1 is in normal light, so the elf can fire without miss-chance. Goblin 2 is in dim light, which the elf can see as normal light, so no miss-chance. Goblins 3 and 4 are in darkness, but both within the 40 feet that the elf can see as dim light.
A2) Goblins 3 and 4 have 20% miss-chance from the elf, since they are in darkness, but within the 40 feet that the elf can see as dim light.
Now, each goblin steps 5' away from the elf.
B1) which can he see to shot at?
B2) Which has a 20% miss chance?NOW that they are
1) 25'
2) 45'
3) 65'
4) 85'
B1) He can see all of them but Goblin 4.
B2) Goblin 1 has no miss-chance, Goblins 2 and 3 have 20% miss-chance since they're in the 40<r<=80 range of his low-light vision. Goblin 4 cannot be seen.The Tiefling beside the elf casts Darkness on the torch.
C) Which goblins can the elf see, and how well?
Goblin #4 lights a torch...
D) Which goblins can the elf see, and how well?
Darkness only affects the light level of an area. It does nothing to the source of said light. (If you want a semi-scientific explanation: It essentially changes the absorption quality of every substance in the area one step towards black. It does not prevent light from reflecting on substances outside its area back to the subjects' eyes). It extends out 20 feet. Finally, it completely prevents non-magical light sources from affecting the light level inside its area.
The result: the darkness globe turns the normal light produced by the torch to darkness, and the dim light produced by the torch is unaffected. We now have 20 feet of darkness, followed by 20 feet of dim light, followed by darkness. The elf's low-light vision lets him see the 20 feet of dim light as normal light, and the next 40 feet of darkness as dim light. However, inside the 20 feet of the darkness created by Darkness he cannot see anything.
The last sentence could be controversial, of course. I would rule it this way, since, with my explanation (and therefore how I see it), Darkness dropping the light level to darkness completely kills all light reflection in the area, so low-light vision has no light to work with.
D) As soon as the back goblin lights his torch, he can be seen normally by the elf, along with everything within a 40' radius (and dimly for another 40' except in the Darkness area).
So, Goblins 1, 3 and 4 can be seen normally. Goblin 2 still has 20% miss-chance.
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Sorry, I didn't ask that first question very well - I meant to say "Or is it (ie. supernatural darkness) the same as "darkness" except that darkvision doesn't work?
Basically I'm trying to figure out that if you wanted to raise "supernaturally dark" up one level, would it go to "darkness" or to "dim light" ? But to be honest, I'm not even sure how you'd do this.
I've just re-read deeper darkness/darkness, and it's got a mins/lvl duration, it's not instantaneous, which answers the second question - you can't bring in a light source immediately after its been cast to change the light level.
'supernatural darkness' is a step below 'darkness'. Magical Light sources inside the globe with a spell level higher than the Darkness spell will increase 'supernatural darkness' up to 'darkness', then up to 'dim light' etc. for as many steps as the source produces (Something that normally produces 'normal light' would increase 'supernatural darkness' to 'dim light').
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Here is the relevant quoteWhat about mundane light sources that are not inside the area of the magical darkness? Does a light source OUTSIDE the area, raise the light level INSIDE the area? Can it shine into the dark area?
if not, can it shine THROUGH?
so does a sunrod (radius 30' or 60' to low light) 25' from a darkness spell, light an area past the darkness?
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness.
It does not mention where the nonmagical light source must be in order for it to not raise the light level, only that it cannot raise the light level at all. It will still shed light everywhere but in the area of darkness as it would normally.
For example, a 120 foot tunnel, unlit. an Elf, with a sunrod standing at the start of the tunnel, looking in. 25 feet in is a darkness spell. what does he see?
Elf w/sunrod (25'), darkness (40' wide), more tunnel (75').
** spoiler omitted **
A Sunrod in a dark tunnel casts 30' of normal light, followed by 30' of dim light. The Darkness spell affects 25' of normal light, followed by 15' of dim light. The lighting level of all squares inside the area of the spell instantly drop to darkness.
The elf would normally see the tunnel as 60' normal light, followed by 60' dim light, followed by darkness. The Darkness spell placed at 25 feet makes this 5' normal light, 40' darkness, 15' normal light, 60' dim light, and then darkness again.
I had made the assumption that situation D still had the darkness spell from C in effect.
I concur with Serum's results on the sunrod example. The key phrase from the darkness spell is:
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness.
Darkness has no described effect for what happens outside of its area, its sphere of influence, thus we can conclude that lighting effects manifest normally outside of the area.
If one were to describe it like a computer algorithm, it goes like this in order:
1. Apply ambient light conditions
2. Apply non-magical light sources
3. Sort magical light and darkness sources by level and apply in order of lowest to highest
Finally...
4. Render the effects of all light sources relative to the viewer based on their senses (i.e.: if they have darkvision or low-light vision)
Sunrods are king of all light sources.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Man, that gets confusing. So darkness doesn't stop light, just surpresses it?
So
E = elf with torch
D = area of magical darkness
L = light
O = Orc
So for example if the elf with the torch is looking down a corridor with a darkness in the middle.
E|LLOLLDODDLLOL
The elf (assuming it's bright enough) will have an area he can see, an area he can't see (the darkness effect) and then it picks up he can see past the darkness?
So in the example above, he can see the first 'O' (since it's in the light area), and the third, but can't see the second?
Sorry, just getting more confused.
Man, that gets confusing. So darkness doesn't stop light, just surpresses it?
It actually gets more confusing if darkness said it could stop light since you'd have to deal with directionality... If darkness could stop light, would a 20' darkness effect inside the light cone of a bullseye lantern cast a shadow? Yeah... That's gets all kinds of crazy. The way the darkness spell is actually written is much much much simpler and the way you describe it is most apt: It surpresses or attenuates (to use a more technical term) light within its area. Nothing more.
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This is why I have always thought there should be an entire section on lighting with pretty pictures showing us varying situations.
That should definitely be noted in case there is ever a second edition. The idea of a new edition of Pathfinder is controversial and definitely far in the future because of what D&D's multiple editions has shown us. I view a 2e of pathfinder as a restructuring and refinement of the rules, not a makeover. The compilation of darkness rules with pictures is a good example of that.