RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'm going to try putting this in a sort of Q&A format, so hopefully you can find a question you have, and get the answer. Here we go:
Question 1: What action is it to search?
Answer: It's a move action.
Core Rulebook, Perception skill description: "Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action."
Question 2: How big of an area can you search at once? That is, do you need to search each 5ft square individually? Or each 10ft square? Does a search cover all squares adjacent to the PC? Everything within earshot/line of sight/etc at the time you make the check?
Answer: Not explicitly defined - we don't have any specific rule stating something like "The Perception check result is applied against all observable stimuli within X area" or whatever. Here's what we *do* have:
Core Rulebook, Perception skill, Perception Modifiers table: "Distance to the source, object, or creature: +1/10 feet"
Thus, we know that Perception is intended to be usable at a distance.
Other data: D&D 3.5 had explicit text in the Search skill stating that you had to be within a certain distance and could only search a certain area at a time. Pathfinder removed all such language.
Question 3: What if a PC fails the check? Can they try again?
Answer: Yes.
Core Rulebook, Perception skill: "Try Again: Yes. You can try to sense something you missed the first time, so long as the stimulus is still present."
Question 4: Can a PC 'take 20' to search? If so, how long does it take?
Answer: Yes. It will take 1 minute.
Core Rulebook, Skills chapter, 'Take 20': "When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you a d20 roll enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform)."
Question 5: Okay, so a PC steps into a room and announces from the doorway that they spend 1 minute taking 20 to search. If a hidden thing is outside their line of sight, but their check result is high enough to beat the DC (including modifiers for distance and such), would they still find it?
Answer: Probably not. We don't technically have a rule explicitly stating that the check will auto-fail if your target is not perceptible from your location. However, we have the following:
Core Rulebook, Perception skill: "Perception covers all five senses, including sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell."
Core Rulebook, Glossary, 'Blinded' condition: "All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail."
Core Rulebook, Glossary, 'Deafened' condition: "He takes a –4 penalty on initiative checks, automatically fails Perception checks based on sound..."
We know that Perception typically covers all five senses, but that there will be some checks where only one sense applies, and that these can sometimes auto-fail. You must make your own judgments from there.
Question 6: Does searching involve touching things?
Answer: Maybe.
Core Rulebook, Perception skill: "Perception covers all five senses, including sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell."
Core Rulebook, Environment chapter, Traps: "Creatures that succeed on a Perception check detect a trap before it is triggered."
Core Rulebook, Using Skills, Take 20: "Common 'take 20' skills include ... Perception (when attempting to find traps)."
So we know that Perception at least can include touch (and taste, for that matter), but also that you don't trigger traps when searching for them despite the multiple failures involved in the recommended use of Take 20. Thus, the GM must decide (within the constraints of these facts) whether a given instance of searching involves touching/licking or merely looking/listening/smelling.
Question 7: Do PCs automatically get a Perception check to notice a hidden target (like a trap), or do they need to search?
Answer: Not explicitly defined, but we have the following:
James Jacobs (Creative Director): "The trap spotter talent lets a rogue make a perception check to notice ALL traps he comes wihtin range of. Normally, you have to tell the GM that you're looking for traps."
Core Rulebook, Trap Spotter rogue talent: "Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap."
Taking 20 does not mean you "get it right".
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Taking 20 does not mean you "get it right".
He didn't say that.
But the rules basically say what Jiggy noted above. They aren’t saying, you automatically succeed. They are discussing the attitude of someone taking 20 and what it means.
Obviously, though, if taking 20 still fails the check, you still fail.
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Taking 20 does not mean you "get it right".He didn't say that.
But the rules basically say what Jiggy noted above. They aren’t saying, you automatically succeed. They are discussing the attitude of someone taking 20 and what it means.
Obviously, though, if taking 20 still fails the check, you still fail.
True, Andrew, from the standpoint of the intent of the statement. Even so, I can see where someone who's reading it literally might misinterpret it, as Chalk Microbe indicates. Given that, it might be better to word that statement as something like, "Taking 20 means you are trying until you do it as well as you possibly can."
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Taking 20 does not mean you "get it right".
Actually, it does. From the Core Boo/PRD:
"Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you a d20 roll enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).
Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties). Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps)."
Now that said, because of the nature of game mechanics, "getting it right" won't necessarily mean success. :p
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I think, given some recent board discussions, one on light levels / daylight / darkness might be prudent.
Especially since I want my fetchling to benefit from dim light as much as possible, and few GMs are aware of the 20% concealment effect in dim light. :P
I could be wrong, but I thought I saw that Rogue Eidolon wrote up a guide for that at some point, so isn't that already covered somewhere?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Walter raises a good point: what are the effects of Concealment (but not Total Concealment) on Perception?
Favorable and unfavorable conditions depend upon the sense being used to make the check. For example, bright light might decrease the DC of checks involving sight, while torchlight or moonlight might increase the DC.
This appears to be all we have. There are no references to Perception modifiers in the Combat chapter's discussion of concealment or in the Additional Rules chapter's discussion of vision and light.
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I typically add to the DC based on what level of cover the object of perception has. So if normal cover would allow a +4 cover bonus to AC, I add that to the Perception DC. I treat normal concealment the same as normal cover and add the +4 (unless some environmental effect or spell indicates what the change in DC should be--I believe that mist or fog and most fog based spells indicate such).
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In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and takes a –4 penalty on Perception checks that rely on sight and most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. Areas of darkness include an unlit dungeon chamber, most caverns, and outside on a cloudy, moonless night.
Since Darkness means blind, and perception is only at a -4 while in it, I would say Dim Light does not affect perception at all.
The only "penalty to perception" one might get in dim light, is the fact that just by observing a target, it doesn't negate their ability to hide in the concealment of dim light.
PC has a +4 disable device. Takes 20 to disable a DC 35 lock.
How close to right did this burglar get? Not very.
Take 20 does not equal "getting it right".
Semantics may not matter to you, but as an ESL person I try.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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PC has a +4 disable device. Takes 20 to disable a DC 35 lock.
How close to right did this burglar get? Not very.
Take 20 does not equal "getting it right".
Semantics may not matter to you, but as an ESL person I try.
Okay.
So why are you telling us? We can't change what's in the Core Rulebook. I believe each hardback has a thread somewhere (Product Feedback section maybe?) for pointing out typos or errors or whatever. Perhaps your point could be helpful for prompting a change of phrasing in the next printing of the CRB.
Second: You've asserted that it's a matter of semantics "not mattering to you". As directly quoted text, we don't get to change the wording to 'clarify' semantics when we're trying to establish the baseline rules in a consolidated reference, without interpretation. I'd suggest your assertion is inappropriate to the purpose of the thread.PC has a +4 disable device. Takes 20 to disable a DC 35 lock.
How close to right did this burglar get? Not very.
Take 20 does not equal "getting it right".
Semantics may not matter to you, but as an ESL person I try.
Just to be clear, since I'm not sure if you understood me. Semantics do matter to me. A simple clarification that the CRB choose its wording poorly is all that is needed. You don't get it right taking 20.
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Question 4: Can a PC 'take 20' to search? If so, how long does it take?
Answer: Yes. It will take 1 minute.
Core Rulebook, Skills chapter, 'Take 20': "When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you a d20 roll enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform)."
Good points all, just the one niggle.... under take 20, you say yes it takes a minute, yet the CRB says 2 minutes... I thought 20 rnds x 6 second rounds to roll 1, 2, 3.....19,20... Is that 1 minute a mistype?
Question 4: Can a PC 'take 20' to search? If so, how long does it take?
Answer: Yes. It will take 1 minute.
Core Rulebook, Skills chapter, 'Take 20': "When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you a d20 roll enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform)."
Good points all, just the one niggle.... under take 20, you say yes it takes a minute, yet the CRB says 2 minutes... I thought 20 rnds x 6 second rounds to roll 1, 2, 3.....19,20... Is that 1 minute a mistype?
I assume his logic is that since searching takes a move action, you are effectively "rolling" twice a round.
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Also please note, anyone can find traps. Anyone can find magical traps.
Assuming they are looking.
And, even then, that DC 25 can be a real bear at 1st level, even if you are fully optimized as a Rogue-oid to disarm traps.