I am a big fan in awarding xp for noncombat ways of overcoming encounters. That said I think they should get xp for overcoming the dragon but not the monsters in the keep. They overcame the dragon by escaping(that should be a lot of xp by the way so maybe they lvl any way). In doing so though the bypassed the chance to earn the xp by encountering the challenges in the keep. I'm a fan of if you don't see the enemy(not that they have to see you of course) you didn't overcome the encounter.
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...Let them fight and let them get slaughtered. Good doesn't always triumph over evil, after all. Demonstrate that hastily jumping at the final boss is a horrible course of action. Just my two cents.
I agree for completely different reasons. Not changing a thing about the final encounter shows that the world does not exist solely for the PCs. They learn that there are fights they cannot win, and that sometimes they need to use alternate approaches rather than just charging head-on.
It also illustrates why planning out encounters more than a session ahead of time is usually a waste. I disagree that it is a slap in the face of the GM to circumvent his encounters, unless there has specifically been an agreement that the party will be partly railroaded through the campaign.
Where I think Lindsey is wrong is in taking game events personally. You are there to have fun. Your players are there to have fun. If that is not fun for one of you, you need to tell someone first before you try to 'get back' at them in game.
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So you have a giant with a ring of teleportation do you? You have a secrative palace with as yet unknown contents? Well then! Why yes the frost giant is using the ring to power a dimentional portal to the nine hells and the party just interupted the ritual and now the giant has lost controll! The portal starts spewing forth demons that attack everything in sight. What's worse, the demons are using fire! And you put on your winter jacket this morning expecting snowstorms, not heat waves. So with the party Ill prepared even weaker minions will be a chalenge. They now have three options, fight the horde so they can close the gate as letting such a threat alone would be a grave mistake only to find out that removing the ring does not close the gate! They would have to travel to the other side to close it presenting a delema, send one across to close it, leaving him to his fate OR all travel across...SIDEQUEST!
Option 2 is to try and escape the way they came, facing the dragon and high winds again. Will their luck hold out? Potentally dangerous but the demons can't follow.
Option 3, tyr to flee down the corridors that they skipped the first time. They would be better equiped to deal with the deziens there but will have the demon hord breathing down their backs creating a sense of ergency. Once escaped, they can try and prepare for this new threat or try and rally the towns garrison. They would then get to go through the gauntlet AGAIN, but this time with both demons and frostfolk in a state of war and hightened security to close the portal, leading back to option 1!
As for 'skipping' sections, think of it as 2 seperate paths instead. Path 1 has 20 enemies in it. Path 2 has only 3, but more tactical/puzzle chalenges. Just because they chose one option over the other doesn't mean they automatacly get experence for the other path. Likewise if they create a third path does not mean they get exp for the other paths. Also remember that each path need not have the same exp rewards.
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To try to answer your request as I'm unsure of what the giant BBEG is fully capable of:
1 - There lies a clockwork golem standing intimidatingly in the corner. It doesn't move and when approached it doesn't seem to be active. Inside the BBEG's study is a letter (BBEG perhaps doesn't show just yet), the clockwork golem is a trophy BBEG took when plundering some place. It mentions a key of some sort (which is located wherever you'd like) and has yet to be awoken and commanded. If the party can get through traps and / or enemies and get to the key they may be able to awake the golem and ask for help in defeating the BBEG.
2 - Some sort of potent magical creatures hang from the ceiling in cages that are warded in some way. If the party can reach the cages (giant tower if I read correctly) and free the magical creatures perhaps they would help them attack the BBEG. Note: You could have some of the creatures just freak out and attack the party or run for the hills if you desire.
3 - A large dragon skeleton hangs from the ceiling, a trophy either fake or not. If the players were smart they could clim up and cut the dragon skeleton down, letting it land on the BBEG for some needed extra damage.
4 - BBEG seems to be stewing something or someone in the kitchen, perhaps they could poison the stew to weaken the BBEG for a more capable battle. (Perhaps have a time limit and make them work to make the poison [i.e. getting venom from an animal or something.])
5 - Provide a description and offer some things that they could make a make-shift trap(s) out of. Large sticks of butter rubbed on the top of the staircase could make the BBEG fall down a flight of steps, etc...
Since they aren't strong enough just have your BBEG stomp them and leave for dead on some mountain nearby that she teleports them to. Then have the party go on a shonen quest to become stronger after being found by a nearby mountain hermit and nursed back to health.
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Thanks for all the suggestions! I've got a map of an ice lair and stuff going, but now I'm tempted to try some of the ideas on here, especially from Third Mind and Gobo Horde.
For the record, I gave them 75% XP for escaping the dragon and nothing for anything inside the fortress that they didn't fight, which is just the way I like to do things. At my gaming table, this is considered fair, and really helps keep the players feeling like they got a reward commensurate with the challenge. For us, it sucks almost as much to get a bazillion XP for avoiding an encounter as it does to get crap XP for a super tough encounter; they both cheapen the experience.
Moox
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I never said you have to kill everything. Never once did I say that. I simply stated that you have to actually be aware of and/or in an encounter to get XP for said encounter.
How aware do you think they have to be? Knowing where the enemies are and avoiding the location? Actually sneaking by them?
Ad hoc XP awards are discretion, and RAI never supposed to be as much as total XP for all encounters in skipped stages.
Where do you get that idea?
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Thanks for all the suggestions! I've got a map of an ice lair and stuff going, but now I'm tempted to try some of the ideas on here, especially from Third Mind and Gobo Horde.
For the record, I gave them 75% XP for escaping the dragon and nothing for anything inside the fortress that they didn't fight, which is just the way I like to do things. At my gaming table, this is considered fair, and really helps keep the players feeling like they got a reward commensurate with the challenge. For us, it sucks almost as much to get a bazillion XP for avoiding an encounter as it does to get crap XP for a super tough encounter; they both cheapen the experience.
Moox
If you as the GM feel like you need time to work towards your intended end-game, many good suggestions here. Use the stall technique, set up a CR-appropriate challenge followed by a puzzle of some sort (a maze, a logic test, a pick-a-door scenario).
Busting in on the BBEG reveals a cult of winter-werewolves. Fight!
Busting in on the BBEG reveals an ice-maze- Remorhaz!
Busting in on the BBEG reveals a summoned Ice Devil- roll for initiative!
Busting in on the BBEG reveals...
have fun!
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You gotta know what the enemies are and you have to be in the vicinity. If you fly over an entire stage without setting foot in it, no XP because you skip the stage. If you're in the stage, and there's a fork in the path, and you go left, and there are no monsters there, but there were monsters on the right fork, no XP because you didn't go the direction that would have made the encounter relevant to begin with. If you walk into a room full of sleeping monsters, and instead of fighting you use Stealth to sneak past them, you do get XP because you were in the encounter area and actually had to use skills specific to that particular encounter.I never said you have to kill everything. Never once did I say that. I simply stated that you have to actually be aware of and/or in an encounter to get XP for said encounter.How aware do you think they have to be? Knowing where the enemies are and avoiding the location? Actually sneaking by them?
I think I've gotten a bit off my point by working with these hypotheticals. If there's a castle off the road that the PC's are following, and they just keep going, of course they shouldn't get xp for everything in the castle. But if they need to get something from the top level of the castle, depending on how much thought/work goes into getting to the top, I do think it should be possible to get as much xp for avoiding the combat on the way up as they can get for fighting everything. And I think if you put a goal in front of the PC's such as getting something from the top of the castle, you shouldn't be pissed at them for going right to the goal and "skipping your content." If you want them to enjoy everything you've put in, make it necessary for them to go through it. Obviously there is an unspoken agreement where they won't totally avoid what you're putting in front of them, but I prefer running and/or playing in a campaign where it's a little less railroady. Honestly, the idea of a "stage" bothers me, it makes me think I have to do everything you want me to in a specific order and that's not my style. But hey, if your players like your campaign, who cares what I say?
Where do you get that idea?Ad hoc XP awards are discretion, and RAI never supposed to be as much as total XP for all encounters in skipped stages.
From reading the book. Where are you getting any idea to the contrary? Take my example, where my PCs took the back door to the boss room and skipped all the other encounters. There were about ten encounters, total value of several million XP. You're suggesting that I should give the PCs that XP because they got around them, despite not knowing what any of the encounters were to begin with.
There is not a single RPG in existence that works like that, this one included. Sorry. RPGs would be in a sorry state if you got rewarded for outright skipping content.
No, what I'm suggesting is give your pc's XP for whatever you want, and don't tell me I'm playing the game wrong because I don't do it the same way. Of course I wouldn't advocate giving xp for avoiding encounters that they didn't even know were there.
I think you're overblowing things a tad lamenting what the state of RPG's would be if xp was given out any certain way. The point of RPG's is to have fun; there's not some abstract "purity of the game" concept that's being infringed upon if you're giving out liberal xp.
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Level grinding is the funnest thing ever, I recommend telling the PC's to turn around and grind the Sunless Citadel until their numbers are big enough to permit them to return to the original campaign. Tell them the delay is their own fault for daring to actually move toward their objective, and murder them all if they refuse to waste time on pointless nonsense. In fact, kill them anyhow. They deserve it for ruining your game world. Probably.
I'm the worst GM on the entire planet and I approve this message.
Thanks for all the suggestions! I've got a map of an ice lair and stuff going, but now I'm tempted to try some of the ideas on here, especially from Third Mind and Gobo Horde.
Moox
Good to hear! Let us know how it goes. :)
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World of Darkness in general doesn't award XP for defeating monsters; it awards XP for (among others) achieving objectives.
Here's where you tell people one thing ("go RP! adventure to reach the objective!") and your system tells another thing ("who cares about the objecture... make sure you face ALL the monsters!").
If the players skip the presumably monster-filled dungeon because sane people would think it would be better to go for the end-room immediately, they actually get punished, because they were supposed to level up by grinding through the apparently avoidable dungeon.
I think the main mistake here is making a dungeon in which you need to level.
Logically, if you avoid the monsters along the way, you'd be fresher with more resources remaining when you face the BBEG if you somehow eluded his minions, whose main job is to tire you on the way to the throne room.
That's thinking like someone with his eyes set on the quest goal, not on monster grinding. That should be rewarded by the rules and game style.