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Is it intentional that there is no encounter scaling for encounter 1?
I am a little concerned about this encounter as I will be running it at a con where there are likely to be new players, who might not do the appropriate thing, and might not be able to afford to bribe. Then they are facing a boss level monster out of the gate. I suspect I need to be prepared to start another pregen or three at that point!
I note that there are a several creatures with reach 0ft including the one in the optional encounter at high subtier with the young template applied - which makes it less of a challenge.
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I am curious what the intended space situation is for the size-large otyugh in A1. There's nowhere for the beast(s) to occupy in the tunnel that isn't squeezing or balancing under RAW. We can either ignore the problem (likely solution) or the otyugh has the squeezing penalties, unable to make 5' steps, etc. I understand the benefit of using Map Packs and Flipmats in PFS Scenarios. I dislike the suspension of disbelief (the rules work different for the monsters than they do for the PCs) that we go through when we play. [/griping]
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The only solution I thought of was that the water channel is very deep (depth not stated) and the walkways stick out 5ft either side over a 15ft wide tunnel beneath. Then the otyugh has reach with cover - which is very bad for PCs.
(I assume all passageways were changed to standard map pack tunnels in post production)
I guess squeezing is the default option.
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I was wondering about that too, and I just decided that the otyughs had been around this area long enough to adapt to dragging half of their body through the muck. It didn't really end up being an issue beyond the first round of combat, though, as both of them ended up staying pretty still.
My main confusion came from the second encounter, with the two urban rangers. I wasn't entirely sure where they were supposed to be positioned, so I had them poke their heads out of the pipe while the party was examining the statue. When they wiggled out, the positioning was such that there wasn't really anything stopping them from fleeing once the gremlin started making the statue glow. Overall that whole encounter was confusing, and I don't I did a good job of conveying what was going on.
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What's funny is this same situation existed in PFS#0-09 Eye of the Crocodile King [Retired Scenario]. It used the original Sewer Map Pack and GMs again had to improvise when an otyugh was squeezed onto a ledge. On the flipside, a big difference is there's an option to negotiate with the otyugh in PFS#4-18. I wonder if PFS#9 author Chris Self (Paizo Finance Manager) shared his idea with intern Amanda Broadway? Granted, finding an otyugh in the sewer is not a revolutionary encounter.
Developer
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Thanks for the feedback and questions, which I am using as I develop this next month's scenarios.
To address a few points raised here:
Sewer Tunnel Size: Argument noted. This was a development change that left our friendly aberrations out in the cold for tactical movement, but as archetypical sewer dwellers, I would not hold the unfortunate dimensions of the walkways against our otyughs. If you want to reflect the quasi-squeezing conditions as a GM, you might make it difficult terrain for the otyugh to walk with one or more feet in the sewer channel and one or more out. It's in the hands of the GM, now.
Ranger Feats: I gather you are referring to Two-Weapon Defense? I believe the rangers' qualifying for that feat was an artifact from their jump from level 6 to level 5 in the development process. The issue is noted, but I'm not too worried about it; their AC ended up being very CR-appropriate, and the feat would have otherwise gone to Power Attack or something equally brutal (poor human PCs!).
I don't want to come off as dismissive of that hiccup, but it's also not so big an issue that I think the scenario needs an immediate update.
Ranger Placement: As I'm seeing on page 8, the two rangers "crawl out of the pipe and attempt to work their way west." When I ran this, I placed the rangers on the two walkway squares immediately northwest and southwest of the A3 label on the map. That allowed an interesting split in the action on either side of the tunnel.
0 ft. Reach: I know of the jinkins, but nothing else in the scenario has 0 ft. reach. The globsters that I think you're referencing become size Medium with the young simple template, so they will still have 5 ft. reach.
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I just ran this fairly cold in the high subtier and it was actually funner than I thought. The ooze encounter is great (they had 4 people, so I did not have the young versions) although I ruled that it could not use its split ability in high tier with 4 people (since with 6 people he can't) otherwise I'm pretty sure it can be an easy TPK.
I was afraid of the last encounter (thinking it was too easy) but it worked out very well. Darkmantles were grabbing people in place, and then the gremilin casts create pit under them. I also landed the hideous laughter once or twice. The save DC is brutal (gogo fey bloodline), but do remember targets of different type (not fey) get +4 to their save.
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I'm prepping this one right now, and I just noticed that the +1 aberration bane arrows received in the scenario are not included in the chronicle. They're not always that useful, but small sets of ammo are one of the few ways to get unique/limited items that people might buy from chronicle access.
They weren't 'found', but were still encountered and came into possession during play.
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I really thing it's refreshing to see the BBEG have the ability to cast /Create Pit/ at higher levels.
However, the sorcerer does not have the required 10gp miniature shovel focus. I have been adding this to her equipment when I run it.
Is this correct?
If someone has a need for a tiny shovel after the conclusion of the adventure, then all of their tiny shovel needs are met.
It doesn't add to the gold of the scenario though.
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The Globster (from Bestiary 3) has a typo in its statistics. The creature is listed as having a Strength score of 16; however, the attack bonuses and damage are calculated as if the creature had a Strength score of 22.
Should we fix the attack bonuses and damage? This change makes an enormous difference in the challenge of this encounter.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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One other thing on the GLobster. The Stench aura *sickens* not *nauseates* the nausea comes from being hit by it.
We almost had a TPK because the GM misread it and had the aura nauseate instead. As is, we still lost the Ranger.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Michigan—Detroit
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I ran this last night and the party got tore up in the first encounter. They were almost tapped out on resources and wanted to rest. I allowed it, since they really couldn't continue as is and the mod didn't state that there was a time constraint. So they came in for the second encounter full up.
This leads me to a couple questions. First, they didn't try to take another rest, but since there was no time constraint, they theoretically could have rested after each encounter. Is there anything to say you can't do that? As far as I can tell, whether you take 1 day or 20, the encounters and outcome of this mod are exactly the same. I guess the same goes for a lot of other mods. I assume word count generally prohibits what-ifs, but is there a general rule on resting between encounters?
In that situation, is there any change to the encounter? Are they no longer there? Or do I need to rationalize that something else has kept there and that they're shaken (4 players) for some other reason?
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Jeffrey, there's no explicit reason they can't, but Sascha is, after all, being hunted by the Hellknights. You should warn the party that she needs to leave as soon as possible. Also, the things in the sewers get to rest as much as the PCs do. If they left Togg alive, she might make things difficult for them. Also, since the human rangers are gone by that point, the jinkin who would have harassed them probably goes to join her friends, in either the optional or the final encounter.
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I recently ran this a couple times at a local con.
1 Tengu Zen Archer Monk (new player)
1 Aasimar Knife Master Rouge
1 Seelah Pregen
2 Aasimar Cleric of Sarenrae
4 Human Rouge
After a quick briefing from VC Heidmarch and Sascha, they quickly headed to the sewers. When the got down the ladder they could hear Togg moving around. They moved at bit closer to inspect the noise, then Togg jumped out and surprised them while yelling at them to "give Togg good food". They proceeding with giving her a trail ration, a bottle of ale (~1 sp), and a piece of deer meat. Togg was not happy with their cheap contributions and attacked. The fighting commenced with Seelah, the sword and board cleric, the knife master rouge basing her. Seelah was the only doing any damage, so Togg continously bit her and tentacled the other two. Eventually, the brought Togg down, but not before Seelah got Filth Fever. They healed her up and continued down the tunnel. I did use the approach John suggested and have Togg's movement be as if she was in difficult terrain.
After proceeding down the tunnel, the PCs didn't have a clue what the staute could be for. They heard clunking around in the pipe, Marixite popped his head out. The let him climb out of the drain pipe (w/Seelah helping him) and they then let Pellius out as well. They noticed the statue's eyes start glowing and the rangers freaked out. They killed the rangers and then found Imini. After detecting evil, Seelah went to town before the rouge (he knew undercommon) could question her.
They continued through the drain pipe to the Fungi. They were able to determine what plant curtain did. So the aasimars ran up and held it open for the other PCs, so they would not get zapped. After a few rounds of fighting the fungi, they continued of their journey.
They were quickly able to bring the garden ooze down before it could do any damage and the gremlin retreated through the secret door.
They preceeded towards the steps, neither rouge attempted a perception check and the level 4 did not have trap spotter, so it got set off. They checked the rooms and continued on to the vault room.
After forgeting what tier I was running the knife master miraculously healed his wounds and the flaming sphere disappeared. Then a smiting paladin and to flanking rouges quickly dropped her by round 2.
This table consisted of 1 brand new player, 3 newish players, and 1 veteran. There was ALOT of character auditing and rules explaining, but everyone had an overall good time.
3 Human (bow) Inquisitor of Abadar
4 Tiefling Grenader Alchemist
5 Human Bard
5 Human Master of Many Styles Monk
5 Nagaji Oracle of Nature
After a quick briefing from VC Heidmarch and Sascha, they quickly headed to the sewers. When the got down the ladder they could hear Togg moving around. They moved at bit closer to inspect the noise, then Togg jumped out and surprised them while yelling at them to "give Togg good food". They proceeded cautiously, asking Togg "what food is good food?" The inquisitor then ran back upstairs and bought a full Thanksgiving meal with all the fixins. Togg was very happy and yelled for Argug, "Togg got good food".
After proceeding down the tunnel, the PCs did determine what the staute was for. They heard clunking around in the pipe, Marixite popped his head out. The let him climb out of the drain pipe and they then let Pellius out as well. They noticed the statue's eyes start glowing and the rangers freaked out. After a few good hits on the human squishies, they successfully subdued the rangers, but not before they oracle bullrushed the statue causing it to land on Imini, killing her.
They continued through the drain pipe to the Fungi. They were not able to determine what plant curtain did. After a few rounds of fighting the fungi, they continued on their journey. No one took any serious damage.
All, but the bard, noticed the Globsters and were quite surprised that they couldn't seem to hit the sword and board Oracle. After a flubbed knowledge check, it took a few rounds of the nobody doing any damage before they started using daggers and alchemist fires (only damage being was by the alchemist). They chased the gremlin through the secret door. Then proceeded with trying to open it w/out success.
Even with Sascha's warning, they still set off the trap. They inspected the rooms a bit, then continued towards the vault room.
The Gremlin won initiative and started combat with dropping the 2 melee PCs in a pit in the hallway. The bard tried to jump over the pit and fell in. Lol. (All 3 stayed in the pit for about 3 rounds since they could not get the DC 25 climb check) The darkmantles flew over the pit and started making their way towards the alchemist and inquisitor. The inquistor dropped his darkmantle and by the time the alchemist got his levitate extract drank and started levitating he got flame sphered. The inquisitor went to town on the gremlin. The darkmantle constricted the alchemist to unconsiousness while he was laughing histaricully and the inquisitor killed the darkmantle before it could kill the alchemist. Once the melee guys got out of the pit, the monk ran up and grappled her. She tried to cast her DD, but it fizzled. I called it there.
My players and I felt this scenario was a little underwhelming (except for the BBEG fight) to be a season 4, but we mostly had a good time.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Michigan—Detroit
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After detecting evil, Seelah went to town before the rouge (he knew undercommon) could question her.
Please note that the creature would not detect as evil, since it has too few hit dice, is not a cleric or paladin, and is not undead or an outsider.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Michigan—Detroit
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Jeffrey, there's no explicit reason they can't, but Sascha is, after all, being hunted by the Hellknights. You should warn the party that she needs to leave as soon as possible. Also, the things in the sewers get to rest as much as the PCs do. If they left Togg alive, she might make things difficult for them. Also, since the human rangers are gone by that point, the jinkin who would have harassed them probably goes to join her friends, in either the optional or the final encounter.
I did mention Sascha's predicament and the players acknowledged it, but they didn't seem too concerned. I don't know if it was because they were so low on resources, they felt they had no other choice; they just didn't care about Sascha's fate; or they metagamed that there had been no time constraints placed on them.
Had other encounters gone poorly and they needed to rest again, it would have been sort of like the boy who cried wolf:
Me: "Well, you can rest, but Sascha's still wanted by the Hellknights..."
Them: "Uh, yeah, you keep saying that, but she's still here, so I think we're good."
Now, I've never had a problem in PFS with players trying to abuse the ability to take rests. But I'd rather have an idea of how to address before it comes up. I'm reading on the boards that the mantra of PFS is "Run As Written", but unless a mod explicitly gives a time constraint, it doesn't directly address the effects PC resting. It puts the effects of leaving and returning as a gray area.
So, as far as I can tell, the rest of the mod plays out exactly the same if PCs run right through it or if they rest after each encounter. Or maybe a more precise statement is, since it isn't written in the mod, I cannot change encounters based on these rests. I don't want to be an automaton, but it seems to go against the RAW to make those kinds of changes. Or am I misinterpreting things?
In a home campaign, I'd see if something else moved into the power vacuum left by the fallen otyughs and assign a daily, cumulative chance that Sascha is found out. That doesn't fly in PFS.
FYI, Argurg was left alive, but one night's rest for a monster isn't nearly enough to compete with the PCs: 6 hit points vs. fully healed and all spells.
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After detecting evil, Seelah went to town before the rouge (he knew undercommon) could question her.Please note that the creature would not detect as evil, since it has too few hit dice, is not a cleric or paladin, and is not undead or an outsider.
Please explain how that works. I was under the impression that as long as it is evil it could be detected.
Unfortunately, I am not a knowledgable of clerics or paladins and their auras as I should be.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Michigan—Detroit
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After detecting evil, Seelah went to town before the rouge (he knew undercommon) could question her.Please note that the creature would not detect as evil, since it has too few hit dice, is not a cleric or paladin, and is not undead or an outsider.Please explain how that works. I was under the impression that as long as it is evil it could be detected.
Unfortunately, I am not a knowledgable of clerics or paladins and their auras as I should be.
There is a table in the Core Rulebook near the detect alignment spells that lists the aura power of a creature. The levels of power vary from None to Overwhelming and are based both on hit dice and creature characteristics. A creature with aura power None will not detect as any alignment.
This rule is rarely called out explicitly in a mod, though Feast of Ravenmoor did just that:
NOTE: I believe that should be "5 or fewer HD", based on the CRB.
It's an easy rule to forget, since once you get to 3rd or 4th level most creatures you encounter are going to have enough hit dice to have an aura, but at low levels it's not very reliable.
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NOTE: I believe that should be "5 or fewer HD", based on the CRB.
This is one case where you really need to reference the PRD, or the latest core PDF, as there has been stealth errata. It is 4HD or less.
PRD detect evil|
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Any comment on the Globster's stat block being incorrect? This appears to be an error in Bestiary 3, but I am not sure if the error is the Strength score or the rest of the stat block...
You're probably right, either the Strength is wrong or the rest of the statblock is wrong. It should probably be errata'd one way or another in the future.
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Developer
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I see what you're talking about on the globster, which appears to have been built with the intention of having a 22 Strength.
I will let the design team know for errata purposes, and in doing so I might learn whether the creature is supposed to be stronger (in which case I would advise using the higher attack and damage total) or weaker (in which case one would recalculate the bonuses to +6 for 2d6+4). Looking at table 1-1 in the Bestiary, I would err on the side of it being the stronger version, as that would better match the intended attack bonus and average damage output for a CR 5 melee threat.
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Just to clarify, in the final fight the party faces off against Mifra and Xarmigash alone? The three Jinkins that serve Mifra are nowhere to be seen?
I see sewer dungeons as overdone but I am liking the chance for the party to negotiate their way past the monsters in this one. Looking forward to running it soon.
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This weekend I both played on Saturday, and ran on Sunday this scenario. I have to say it is the most fun I have had at a table in a long time. This might have become my new favorite scenario. The ability to avoid combat or just plow through lets all types of characters feel they can accomplish something. We had combat characters love the challenges of the combat and we had our diplomats help us avoid a couple encounters. For a sewer crawl, this provided some unexpected versatility.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I played this yesterday, had a good time. Though to be honest, it would have been hard not to have a lot of fun, given that the party was entirely composed of kitsune PCs:
2nd-level Musket Master
2nd-level Swashbuckler Rogue
2nd-level Magus (my wife)
2nd-level Arcane Duelist Bard (me)
There was a lot of "who has enough carrying capacity left to carry these flasks?" and such; we also got a lot of use out of the gunslinger's Porter vanity. (We fed the otyugh some turkeys, and the Porter was the only one strong enough to climb down into the sewers with three turkeys strapped to his back without having difficulty.)
Also, I've never cast prestidigitation so many times in my life. Ever try to get sewage out of your fur? Nightmare!
I'm mildly irked that darkness was used in subtier 1-2. Had I not been hyper-paranoid (not wanting to lose this PC, I prioritized my contingencies and brought, among other things, an oil of daylight acquired via 2PP) we'd have had a really rough time. (A smaller room and a lack of that oil would probably have been a TPK.) I don't think it's appropriate to include challenges in a 1-2 whose only solutions are not on the Always Available list. A 1st-level PC cannot have 5 Fame, and therefore only gets to have Always Available items, or items acquired via PP. And a 1st-level PC has absolutely no more than 4PP, usually with the first 2 spent on a healing wand. The only way a table of 1st-level PCs survives that fight is if most of them just happen to have darkvision naturally, or if one of them (1) is only 1XP short of 2nd level, (2) has gotten the max possible 4PP, and (3) spend 2PP on an oil of daylight.
Granted, I don't know if maybe there are things in the tactics that mitigate that a bit, but on the surface it seems pretty inappropriate.
Other than that, though, it was a pretty fun scenario. :)
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The only way a table of 1st-level PCs survives that fight is if most of them just happen to have darkvision naturally, or if one of them (1) is only 1XP short of 2nd level, (2) has gotten the max possible 4PP, and (3) spend 2PP on an oil of daylight.
I don't think darkness is that bad. It can be beaten by many a level 1 tactics, some which you missed:
1. Have darkvision (your table was atypical in that everyone was the exact same race)
2. Scrolls of darkvision (150g; 1pp)
3. Cast obscuring mist and screw them over too
4. Get out of the room. Seriously, go back into the hallway, let darkness go away or see if the bad guy comes to you. You are not under a time limit.
5. ioun torch (75gp)
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@CRobledo: I played at the table with Jiggy. It was a ton of fun. But he's right.
This scenario is a tier 1-5. Which means that a table of all spanking brand new PCs can play at it.
You can't expect that a table of 0XP 1st level characters is going to be prepared for things like Darkness. And it is possible that better than 50% of the time, you'll have a party without dark vision. Not every party will have a Dwarf or a Half-Orc.
Yes, there are tactics to avoid it. But tier 1-5 scenarios also often support play for brand new players.
Are you saying that Darkest Vengeance (deeper darkness) and this scenario are fair?
Now to be fair, the gremlins don't do a ton of damage. So you can even fumble around in the dark and eventually win the fight.
But I'm of an opinion that save or suck and things like darkness that even level 10 characters sometimes have trouble with, has absolutely no business in a tier 1-5.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I don't think darkness is that bad. It can be beaten by many a level 1 tactics, some which you missed:
1. Have darkvision (your table was atypical in that everyone was the exact same race)
Of the nine (non-boon-requiring) races, only 4 of them have darkvision. Two of the darkvision races require additional resources. Also, having a dwarf or two just means you have someone trying to solo the fight. Sleep that guy and that's that. Besides, your race choice shouldn't determine whether you live or die.
2. Scrolls of darkvision (150g; 1pp)
Only works if you can get out of the darkness first, seeing as you have to read the scroll.
3. Cast obscuring mist and screw them over too
Okay, fair point. That is, if the party includes one of the small handful of classes that can cast it. That's kind of like the racial darkvision issue: be this type of PC, or die.
4. Get out of the room. Seriously, go back into the hallway, let darkness go away or see if the bad guy comes to you. You are not under a time limit.
In this particular encounter, yes, that was an option. Unless of course we had had one more PC, in which case the darkened area is treated as being completely covered in caltrops (according to my GM). Being blinded in a field of caltrops makes retreat not really much of an option.
5. ioun torch (75gp)
Doesn't work. Magical light sources only increase the light level in the area if they're of a higher spell level than darkness (right there in the spell description), and continual flame (the light source on the ioun torch) is not a higher spell level than darkness, and is therefore shut down.
Yes, there are a handful of ways around it. However, any tier 1-2 encounter should be something that a table of newbies with Core pregens should be able to handle. This does not fit that description, except for the only-if-it's-a-table-of-four retreat option.
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Yes, there are a handful of ways around it. However, any tier 1-2 encounter should be something that a table of newbies with Core pregens should be able to handle. This does not fit that description, except for the only-if-it's-a-table-of-four...
I don't know as this is a premise for their scenario building...
There are a LOT of Tier 1-5's that can be done with a small group of pregens, but not all scenarios are equal. Some are more difficult, and require more than just starting characters to have a break even chance to be successful.
This encounter can be difficult, it can also be a cakewalk if you have 4 half-orc/dwarves as your group make up.
I've run this twice, once at each tier, and while the darkness was a difficultly in the lower tier, it did not mean the party had no options. As Crobledo noted, there are multiple ways to deal with darkness, your group had an additional one he didn't even mention, sometimes those less prepared just take a lot more damage than those who are prepared. It's not that rough of a fight overall, with that one single use ability that covers a 20' radius area of the room...which isn't even the entire room.
YMMV, but I personally felt the encounter was fine for a range of levels, though maybe not something that should be scheduled for a solely 1st level table (like the clamoring for Severing Ties and Temple of Emperyal Enlightenment).
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Now if this was a 3-7 scenario (low tier being 3-4), I'd have no issue with using darkness. By that time, even the lowest legal PC has six chronicles. That means it's almost impossible to have less than 5 Fame (so they can purchase a potion of darkvision and at least have the option of spending 2PP on an oil of daylight). By 3rd level, you've had the chance to get most of your gear in a decent place (masterwork primary weapon, masterwork armor except for heavy armor, backup weapons of different materials, etc). It's reasonable at this point to expect that most PCs will be starting to acquire contingency consumables that don't depend on them being a specific race or class.
But at 1-2, an encounter like this means that if you're a new martial PC without racial darkvision, you're hosed unless you're in the right party.
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Yes, there are tactics to avoid it. But tier 1-5 scenarios also often support play for brand new players.
This is kinda of a topic for another thread but...
There has to be a balance though. I am not saying Darkest Vengeance is fair (darkness and deeper darkness are different beasts) but I an also not saying this scenario is UNfair. I for one don't want to see every single 1-5 be a cakewalk. I DO would like to see 90% of them (at least 1-2) to be noob-friendly. I think in this case, it is not a TPK-fest.
They gave this guy darkness in a 1-2, yes, but like Jiggy said, you CAN run away. If you told me the scenario dropped you into a pit and you could not do anything but fight in the darkness then I would have a problem.
And Jiggy, since this is in the GM section, there is a caltrops-like mechanic in that last room but its not caltrops. Moving 1/2 speed prevents it entirely, and even moving full speed it's only a chance to hit caltrops.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I for one don't want to see every single 1-5 be a cakewalk.
Who said anything about making it a cakewalk? Or are you saying that "cakewalk" is what everything that doesn't blind most parties defaults to? Couldn't we put it somewhere in between?
The DR 5/cold iron that the baddies apparently had was an obstacle, but can be overcome by either dealing lots of damage or by having certain equipment that - and this is the important thing - is Always Available and doesn't require a specific type of PC. It hinders unprepared PCs but is still answerable.
Or having the BBEG cast blur on themselves before the fight. That would toughen them up, but it's not nigh-insurmountable for brand-new PCs. Or have a ranged/caster BBEG be on the other side of some difficult terrain.
There are different kinds of obstacles. Ones that slow the PCs down (giving the BBEG more rounds of fighting) and/or can be overcome with reasonably accessible gear are great for subtier 1-2. Ones which require some very specific countermeasures if you intend to participate in combat are great for 3-4 and up, but are not the right type of challenge for 1-2.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Michigan—Detroit
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This is one case where you really need to reference the PRD, or the latest core PDF, as there has been stealth errata. It is 4HD or less.
PRD detect evil
Ah, thanks, I apparently referenced the wrong reference. :-/ I do find it odd that even in the update an aligned creature and aligned magic item or spell (caster level) are not symmetrical. (One's 1-4 and the other 1-5.)
I, too, am learning something new every day. :-)
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The only way a table of 1st-level PCs survives that fight is if most of them just happen to have darkvision naturally, or if one of them (1) is only 1XP short of 2nd level, (2) has gotten the max possible 4PP, and (3) spend 2PP on an oil of daylight.
Or they do something to cut off line of effect from the center of the darkness like throw a sheet over it.
Or more likely, they can just beat the enemy even despite the light/darkness disadvantage. Remember you don't get concealment against someone if you're grappling them. When I ran it, the archer, to show how badass he was, just flat-out beat the darkmantle in a grapple fight, doing 1d3+2 nonlethal damage until he had knocked the thing out. The damage and CMB are pretty low, after all. It's a CR 1.
So while I agree that you shouldn't expect level 1s to be able to cancel the darkness, you don't need to be able to cancel it to win this encounter--you can win it blindfolded.
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The DR 5/cold iron that the baddies apparently had was an obstacle, but can be overcome by either dealing lots of damage or by having certain equipment that - and this is the important thing - is Always Available and doesn't require a specific type of PC. It hinders unprepared PCs but is still answerable.
I still stand by the fact that in this specific scenario, darkness is answerable. Walking out of it, swinging with 50% concealment, moving into the hallway, putting a blanket over the source of darkness. DR 5/cold iron should not be a challenge with any character with 1xp, like you said.
Ninja'd by rogue eidolon...
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Or they do something to cut off line of effect from the center of the darkness like throw a sheet over it.
If memory serves, the GM had the darkness produced stealthily, so we didn't know what object was radiating the effect. So much for that idea. :/
Or more likely, they can just beat the enemy even despite the light/darkness disadvantage. Remember you don't get concealment against someone if you're grappling them. When I ran it, the archer, to show how badass he was, just flat-out beat the darkmantle in a grapple fight, doing 1d3+2 nonlethal damage until he had knocked the thing out. The damage and CMB are pretty low, after all. It's a CR 1.
We tried the grapple route as well, for exactly that reason. Then we got rather brutally reminded that the grapplee doesn't have to make a CMB check to escape; they can use Escape Artist instead.
So while I agree that you shouldn't expect level 1s to be able to cancel the darkness, you don't need to be able to cancel it to win this encounter--you can win it blindfolded.
I will grant you that this specific encounter is not as bad as a 1-2 darkness encounter could have been. Thus, it got 3 stars in my review instead of the 2 stars it would have gotten with a more restrictive environment/circumstance. But replace darkness with some other obstacle and it would've been 4 stars from me.
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Or they do something to cut off line of effect from the center of the darkness like throw a sheet over it.If memory serves, the GM had the darkness produced stealthily, so we didn't know what object was radiating the effect. So much for that idea. :/
The room is large enough that there's somewhere to stand outside the darkened area (even if the enemies remain within). So that should allow you to use geometry to find the center. Even if you don't know which object in the square is radiating, you could try tossing a tent or bedroll over the whole square.
Or more likely, they can just beat the enemy even despite the light/darkness disadvantage. Remember you don't get concealment against someone if you're grappling them. When I ran it, the archer, to show how badass he was, just flat-out beat the darkmantle in a grapple fight, doing 1d3+2 nonlethal damage until he had knocked the thing out. The damage and CMB are pretty low, after all. It's a CR 1.We tried the grapple route as well, for exactly that reason. Then we got rather brutally reminded that the grapplee doesn't have to make a CMB check to escape; they can use Escape Artist instead.
Wait--the GM wasn't having the darkmantle use its grab and constrict ability? It only does 1d4 without that and is no threat at all. When I ran it, I was the one initiating the grabs.
So while I agree that you shouldn't expect level 1s to be able to cancel the darkness, you don't need to be able to cancel it to win this encounter--you can win it blindfolded.I will grant you that this specific encounter is not as bad as a 1-2 darkness encounter could have been. Thus, it got 3 stars in my review instead of the 2 stars it would have gotten with a more restrictive environment/circumstance. But replace darkness with some other obstacle and it would've been 4 stars from me.
Some monsters in Pathfinder, like darkmantles, are very low CR (clearly Tier 1-5 monsters) and have darkness. Given that, if they will ever see use, it's very likely to be in 1-5 scenarios. Further given that, I think this was an extremely well designed encounter to showcase darkness and teach new players about it while still being pretty darn winnable even if you can't counter it. So in that sense, I'm happy about it. It's also fair of you to lower your rating because the darkness tempered your enjoyment. I just thought some of your previous posts about not being able to handle the encounter without countermeasures were a bit strongly worded, given that I assume the author and editorial staff put good work into this scenario to make it, in my opinion, extremely winnable even if you never beat the darkness (and probably pretty easy if you do, but then you get to feel like a hero for having the right ace up your sleeve for whatever reason you had it, so I'm cool with that).
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Ones which require some very specific countermeasures if you intend to participate in combat...Why can't you participate when you can't see?
Perhaps when Jiggy said participate, he meant participate with even a modicum of effectiveness.
Nothing is more boring than a bunch of level 1 characters fumbling around in the dark for an hour and a half trying to fight a quick and nimble creature that can see that is slowly nickle and diming you to death.
Just this exact thing nearly ended in a TPK with a table of 3 and a Merisiel pregen (would have been Kyra, but a level 1 cleric was already at the table).