The Farm Game

[Bringslite]

I am not starting this to discuss Gold Farming. That has been hashed and rehashed. I am curious about what ideas you guys might have about what farm steading could be like in PFO.

Player farm steading could open up a whole range of new skills, player interaction, mini game-with-in-game opportunities, product generation, "farmer goes to market", etc., etc...

Would a detailed farm steading option be something that enough players could enjoy?

[Being]

Farming foods is fairly popular in LoTRO, so I should think it would be an attractive option for some players anyway. I think what it would come down to is whether crafted food/drink and animal husbandry is going to be meaningfully implemented.

[Bluddwolf]

Farms in my opinion would be no different than any other resource nodes, just more common and closer to settled areas.

[Micco]

And is there any hope for the poor farmer protecting his stuff when the world is literally flooded with bandits that never seem to die.

I love the idea, but I think there will be soooo many people wanting to 'roleplay evil' that you have no hope of preventing your sheep from being violated daily. This is all a consequence of the 'massive' part of the game design...too many people on the server means there is no real social consequence for being a jerk, so the world will be rife with them. Think Mogadishu with tights and capes. On a smaller server (of a couple hundred people) the jerks would become obvious and eliminated quickly.

So no, I don't think farms can work in PfO as it will be essentially a third-world country. People starve in third-world countries largely because the jerks gank the farmers.

[George Velez]

Micco, your comments give me the impression that you believe PFO will be overrun with gankers and griefers who will face no consequences for their actions. Are you aware of GWs position on this and the steps they are taking to prevent/reduce this behavior?

[Bringslite]

@Micco

Those are some very valid points. I can see that farming might just be more frustrating than fun.

Still, maybe there could be some kind of defence. I don't know, affordable NPC guards, limits to the destruction jerks could do in a time frame, something. Maybe too hard to deal with.

Most of of the US, actually everywhere was settled by farmers first. They moved into dangerous areas, cleared the land and farmed or worked it's resources in some way. Then more people would move in and add more services, etc. until it became a "settled" area and people moved farther out to do it all again.

The thing that would be needed is more game value on grown and harvested foods. Maybe a "Vitality" mechanic that gave small useful benefits for staying well fed. I can remember that Meridian 59 had thier "Vigor" mechanic for that. Then foods could be for more than just buffs before combat.

[Hobs the Short]

In the blog "Over the Hill and Far Away", it is stated that settlement hexes will be surrounded by six wilderness hexes that will contain points of interest, and in their lists, farms are included:

"Wilderness hexes are mostly undeveloped land with a space for a point of interest (an inn, watchtower, farm, or similar structure) to be built near the center."

In that they use the phrase, "to be built in the center," I take it that we will need to construct these and they will thus be player controlled and operated (or at least I hope so with the operated portion of my assumption). Farms would then fall under the protection of the settlement and hopefully attacked far less than Micco asserts. Hopefully, being a settlement's possession, NPC guards could be stationed there to protect it.

Instead of a single player owned farm, this would be more of a communal settlement farm where those with the appropriate skills could generate crops and animals.

[Being]

I'm operating under an inference that such facilities, like settlements themselves, will be little more than placeholder objects at the beginning of early enrollment. They are only shooting for what they call a 'minimally viable product' at first. I do understand they have grand plans for what to do after then, but even if there are 'farms' at the start, those 'farms' might initially be just monochromatic boxes until they have better art and are more interactable (if that is a word).

[Bluddwolf]

As a bandit I can tell you that simple farms and its farmers will be pretty safe from bandits, for a variety of reasons.

1. Farms will be close to settled hex and therefore close to the response on NPC wardens and PC Enforcers.

2. Farms close to settled hexes will be growing common farm goods and livestock, hardly the profit generating goods that bandits are looking for.

3. Farms will be so close to settled hexes that bandits will have to forgo "Outlaw Flagging" themselves because that will draw NPC response even before bandits attack.

The only real danger that farms / farmers will face is from their settlement being at war. Then these farms will become primary targets for organized armies and from their allied bandits if there are any.

So if you areooking for low risk, small reward PvE while still providing your settlement with a much needed resource, farming is an excellent choice.

[Micco]

Hopefully I'm wrong (and yes, I'm aware that GW is going to do their level-best to avoid anti-social behavior.) There are plenty of people who will relish their 'outlaw' status, so that is of absolutely zero deterrence. Like locks, 'outlaw' tagging will only keep honest people honest. The jerks will still be jerks. It's how they roll.

Look, I'm all for playing PfO and participating in the PvP game. I just don't think a detailed farm mechanic has much chance of working unless the farm disappears while the farmer is off-line. Unless there are very strong NPC guards, I fear that the sheep will live in constant fear of unwanted attention while the shepherd is away! :)

Wiping out a relatively undefended farm is just too tempting a target for people who are out for a little "fun", particularly if it is just a matter of getting three or four like-minded mischief-makers together.

Since farming should take a full season to produce, I doubt many farms will survive long enough to be satisfying for the player who runs it.

I agree with Hobs...communal farms have some chance of making it if they are indeed a POI for a hex. At least then you'll get some active defense. But the lone farmstead would be toast I'm afraid.

I think Bluud is right...real Bandits won't bother with farms. But the 'lets go cause mischief' crowd will be all over them. And don't fool yourself...there will be plenty of that crowd in PfO unfortunately.

[Bringslite]

In the Fellowship of the Ring, Farmer Maggot had to deal with naughty Hobbits stealing his crops. He caught them and beat them sometimes, other times his trained guard dogs chased them off. All part of the cost of running a farm and possibly very fun. :)

[Being]

If we only focused cynically on the worst that can happen we may as well unplug from the internet altogether.

[Bringslite]

@Being

Agreed. I like your attitude Sir. This post was to see if some players could be excited about playing the Farmer Game and how it could be made fun.

Also, could farms be settled around the edges of settlements by a poor guy with naught but an axe, a plow, some seed or animals, and some skills? Could he then turn around and sell the land to a larger group someday?

[Being]

We don't have information on that but generally the focus is for social groups to develop world objects cooperatively. I, for one, would love it if there were a 'rugged pioneer' type of play. In my druidic persona I would decry the encroachment of civilization on the wilderness, but the romantic individualist in me wholly supports your proposal.

[Hobs the Short]

Micco,

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), that some of your reservations about farms are based on the idea that the crops you are growing and the animals you are raising will be persistent for any length of time past the duration that a character employing farming/animal handling skills is in-game. If the point of interest farm runs more like a resource node, harvesting camp, or even a crafting station, it may not be as much of a problem. For example:

1. Farmer logs in at his settlement and walks over to the point of interest farm in the adjoining hex.

2. He initiates farming using his farming skill, partly by standing on the plot of soil where crops can be grown.

3. Just like anyone setting up a harvesting camp, he might want to bring along some friends to act as guards, but since the farm is within the protection of the settlement, NPC guards will be around as well.

For the actual growing portion of the process, there are two possible routes.

4a. The system could work similar to LotRO. The farmer, having entered the plot of soil used for growing crops, would initiate planting his seeds, watering his seeds, tending them, and waiting for the growing timer to run out. He harvests his crops and either begins again or is finished for the day. If attacked, he's only out the crops he's currently working on, rather than all his crops that are left sitting vulnerable when he logs out. The unrealistically short growing time might be the only off-putting part to some.

4b. The point of interest farm acts more like a crafting station. Since growing plants requires raw materials, I would say that farming would fall under the "refining" branch of crafting. While standing near/on your crafting station (the plot of soil), you would bring up the refining menu, input your seeds, water, fertilizer, etc., start the refining process, and return when the product was finished - in this case, when the plants were finished growing and ready for collection (i.e. harvest). I doubt anyone is going to be able to steal your materials being processed in the regular refining sequence used for any other refining process, so I don't see why it should be possible here. Of course, the farm itself might be destroyed, just as a settlement's crafting and refining stations could presumably be destroyed.

Either of these gets trickier with animals, but I think it could still work. In-put your two chicken into the point of interest farm chicken coop, toss in your raw materials (water, chicken feed, etc.), and return when there are eggs or new chicken, just like a crafter would return hours or days later to collect the swords that his unseen NPC apprentices have forged using his plans and materials.

[Bluddwolf]

@Micco

Farms close to settled hexes would be high risk and little reward.

Although wardens won't quite be EvEs Concord, their response will be quick and with near by PCs, pure suicide for would be bandits.

I would gladly camp outside of such simple farms and wait for the fools to attack. The UnNamed Company has already pledged itself to fight against griefing, and these farm raiders would make a more profitable target anyway, and certainly a lot more fun. We would also gain reputation for protecting the weak.

My personal goal and in my eyes the most one that represents poetic justice the most is to be a Wealthy, Chaotic Neutral, Bandit with a very high Reputation.

[Hardin Steele]

Farming could easily be a little different from wandering through the deep woods and finding a stand of rare Ironwood. Instead, farms (with the appropriate skills, of course) might be the place to plant some higher end food raw materials, or to husband some tamed (or captured and yet untamed) rarer creatures for breeding.

I don't see having a herd of dragons, unicorns or gryphons inside the area protected by a settlement, but I can see high end war horses, angora sheep, creatures with rare skins, higher end mounts, etc... Not the highest end, but up there. The rarest creatures are wilderness creatures and may well be only tamed one at the time.

Expensive and rare plants or insect farms may be "city" farms as well, where inks, dyes and insect products may thrive, and be protected.

[Micco]

@Hobs - That system may well work! Thanks for a well-considered answer. :)
You are correct that I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that the OP was asking about a farming system where your crops had to survive for a month of real time while they matured. I love the idea of lone homesteaders carving out a bit of wilderness to turn into a farm (not that I'd personally do it, but I love the idea!) I really wish it could be, but I don't think that vision is doable in on a massively multi-player server for all the reasons I mentioned.

If it is more like a resource node that is 'mined' and then decamped, then I suspect it would work very well. But it doesn't have near the 'feel' of the first system.

@Being - I guess I don't see how I'm focusing on the negative. I just providing my POV on the OP's question. I'm sure that GW is doing everything they can to make griefing as difficult as possible, and I applaud them for it. But let's not pretend that griefing won't happen, and a remote farm is the perfect place to cause mischief.

I like Hob's suggestions on how you could make a farm less mischief-prone. It lacks some of the romance of a homestead, but I suspect that is how they will do it.

And I hope Bluudwolf is right that the NPC guards will be fast enough to prevent slash and run tactics if there is some way to have small personal structures out in the 'controlled hexes.' As long as they don't teleport in...that would stink for immersion!

Cheers.

[Hobs the Short]

Micco,

You're quite welcome. As someone who would also love to run a little farm, what you describe sounds wonderful, but if it in a secluded little spot (like a frontier homesteader farm) away from the protection of a settlement, I'm afraid it would make the perfect target for a band of bandits or PKs. As much as Bluddwolf is looking for the profitable marks, not everyone playing a bandit will be so discriminating.

[Bluddwolf]

It really depends on how far from the settlement Micco is looking to locate his farm. If you are looking to be a common goods farmer, close to a settlement, you will have no problems. If you on the other hand, locate in a less secure, more profitable area, then you will attract the attention of bandits.

The laws of risk vs. reward are at play. If you are a part of a settlement, you ill have access to protection (both NPC and or PC). If you are sufficiently profitable and want even more protection, The UnNamed Company does take guard contracts. Who better to defend you from bandits, thn a company of bandits. Not only do you get us to protect you and your cargo, but we will take note of other bandit groups working in our territory.

If you find that you have competition from another farmer or merchant, we can handle that situation with what we do best.

[Onishi]

Well in general from the explanations of GW and such... Working alone for anything, is generally suicide. Wandering NPC escalations etc... will also turn a farm in the middle of nowhere into an orc camp or whatever.

PFO is not intended to be a game that caters very strongly to solo playstyles, some forms will certainly be possible, but in general if you are solo you will need to stick very close to the NPC settlements, and be prepared to earn much less than someone who chose to be a member of a strong group.

[Being]

I should think if a character with a farm was successful, perhaps even well-to-do from his lifetime of adventuring, he might hire other characters to ensure escalations are removed and the property defended, just like a caravan would.

Farming isn't necessarily solo work.

One thing I'd like the designers to consider is eventually provide a way for really advanced, veteren players to semi-retire to something like a horse ranch, a farm, a remote stone tower, or a secluded woodland somewhere.

Waay down the road.

[Bluddwolf]

Onishi wrote:

PFO is not intended to be a game that caters very strongly to solo playstyles, some forms will certainly be possible, but in general if you are solo you will need to stick very close to the NPC settlements, and be prepared to earn much less than someone who chose to be a member of a strong group.

This is probably true in the short run, but I would think that after a few years a player-character could strike out there nd turn a pretty good living solo. This same theory was said about EvE, and look at how many Corps-of-One there are. Now that does not mean that a settlement can be run by one, that is an advancement over the EvE corp that PFO will seem to have. But settlements may become less important for a character that is a few years old.

[Valcili]

I have a friend who has a solo corp, he does a fairly decent job at make a good living for himself in EVE but as it was mentioned because he is a solo player, he never leaves highsec. He mines only in highsec and generally if leaves highsec its not to farm, but to purchase stuff, and event hen if it is of extreme value he will contract it to be delivered to him.
A thought on farming outside of a settlement area; If one wanted to set up a farm in a higher risk area outside a settlement protection, it can still be protected.
1. You would need to be pretty well off in the first place to go off by your lonesome into a high-risk zone, for the higher rewards. So you would/should have enough resources to have/attain protection for your farming venture.
2. If I was to do a farming venture outside a protected zone, I would not find a spot and set up shop and hope I don’t get jacked. Similar to what you may find in a book, game of thrones is one example, and of course real life American mobs is another, you make a deal and supply a protection tax. Every so often an envoy of the bandits in the controlling area stops by has some tea or wine sees how your business is faring asks if there is any trouble…after the short visit, you fill his wagon with some goods from you crops give his a cheerful smile and send him on his way…next week/month the cycle repeats….they keep you safe and they reap the rewards…it’s a win win…a true bandit should be smart enough not to gut there goose that lays the golden egg. You protect it so it keeps spitting them out for you.

[Hardin Steele]

Valcili wrote:

If I was to do a farming venture outside a protected zone, I would not find a spot and set up shop and hope I don’t get jacked. Similar to what you may find in a book, game of thrones is one example, and of course real life American mobs is another, you make a deal and supply a protection tax. Every so often an envoy of the bandits in the controlling area stops by has some tea or wine sees how your business is faring asks if there is any trouble…after the short visit, you fill his wagon with some goods from you crops give his a cheerful smile and send him on his way…next week/month the cycle repeats….they keep you safe and they reap the rewards…it’s a win win…a true bandit should be smart enough not to gut there goose that lays the golden egg. You protect it so it keeps spitting them out for you.

Or a successful farmer farming rare herbs, or plants for inks or dyes could hire guards who could then chop those pesky little bandits to pieces. As they deserve.

[Harrison]

Bluddwolf wrote:

Farms in my opinion would be no different than any other resource nodes, just more common and closer to settled areas.

Maybe with a slightly higher yield, because you're specifically caring for the "resource node" in question so that it produces as much as possible.

That would give some nice incentive for people to defend the local farmers from bandits and stuff.

[Being]

A good businessman has an eye clear of illusion and accepts the costs of doing business. Sound's like one of Big Tony's people.

[Carbon D. Metric]

My primary PC will focus almost all of his working energy towards building, running, and maintaining his own farmstead and ranch for a settlement, so I sure hope there is a way for a PC to interact with a settlement improvement such as a farm to get functionality out of it. Examples of this kind of activity at other resource nodes would be manual (Slow) labor involving chipping at real ore and hauling it to be sorted and shipped for a mining resource. Timberfelling for logging camps and running a mill is also labor intensive things a PC should be able to help with.

Ideally, I'd like to design my own farmhouse, storehouse, and fields one day, but alas this is just one of MANY features we will have to crowdforge I'm sure.

[Hobs the Short]

As buildings in a settlement can be upgraded, could your farm plot be upgraded as well, so that the crops you harvest from it would rise in potential quality? Starting farms could provide quality 1-100 plants, a moderately upgraded plot might yield quality 101-200, and the best fields would produce 201-300 quality crops. Thus, the quality range would be identical to "wild" resources, but the quality itself would be dependent on how much money and resources your settlement put into upgrading the soil.

[Bringslite]

Carbon D. Metric wrote:

My primary PC will focus almost all of his working energy towards building, running, and maintaining his own farmstead and ranch for a settlement, so I sure hope there is a way for a PC to interact with a settlement improvement such as a farm to get functionality out of it. Examples of this kind of activity at other resource nodes would be manual (Slow) labor involving chipping at real ore and hauling it to be sorted and shipped for a mining resource. Timberfelling for logging camps and running a mill is also labor intensive things a PC should be able to help with.

Ideally, I'd like to design my own farmhouse, storehouse, and fields one day, but alas this is just one of MANY features we will have to crowdforge I'm sure.

THAT is what this thread is supposed to be about. Not why it could never work or will never be considered.

[Bringslite]

Hobs the Short wrote:

As buildings in a settlement can be upgraded, could your farm plot be upgraded as well, so that the crops you harvest from it would rise in potential quality? Starting farms could provide quality 1-100 plants, a moderately upgraded plot might yield quality 101-200, and the best fields would produce 201-300 quality crops. Thus, the quality range would be identical to "wild" resources, but the quality itself would be dependent on how much money and resources your settlement put into upgrading the soil.

Unfortunately, that is what we may likely see. A watered down version of the farm stead.

I would still like the option of striking out into the wilderness and starting my own farm. Kinda like a poorman's low budget way to start a settlement. If I can keep it safe from bandits, monsters, territory agressors, etc. then others could come to farm, preach, smith goods, process my goods, etc. Boom! A settlement pops up.

[HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise]

Well, assuming that PCs need to eat and drink to maintain their health and stamina, let's assume that the primary sources of food are what the scavenge in the wilds (deer, geese, rabbits, wild herbs and plants) and rations (Jerky, cheese, flat-bread, beer) that they have taken with them at the start of the journey.

Most, if not all, of those supplies are going to come from PC-Run and Owned Farms.

Wheat for your bread, oats for your porridge and your horse, potatoes and carrots and beans and tomatoes, apple-trees and orange-trees.

Then you've got station-farms, where cattle and horses are bred and reared, to provide meat, leather and forms of transportation.

You've then got Piggeries where, again, pigs are bred and reared in large numbers to provide meat and leather.

Chickens can be bred by any farm, they're basically a 'freebie' food source, and possibly beneficial since a population of Chickens (or geese for a vegetable farmer) will keep insect populations down.

Now here's where I think farming might become vital to the long-term survival of a Hex. Let's assume that a Hex is being controlled by a group of 'kick down the door' gamers who really aren't interested in 'small' or un-heroic tasks, much to the chagrin of the players who joined their settlement.

Some weeks after the Heroes finally establish their outpost in the next Hex and rarely return to their original home-base but for a skeleton crew, some dumb-ass band of two-headed Bandit Mongoloids starts to get the bright idea that they can raid the farms and get free food, and sell off what they don't want to other players for a profit.

Several burned farms later, that will have to be rebuilt from the ground up, nobody wants to be a farmer because everybody is off trying to find a Dragon to slay, so the farmers refuse to plant seeds, cull their herds down to the bare minimum and sit on their produce.

And all of a sudden ... there's no food. Players are staggering around with the 'Starving' debuff, but there's barely enough food for the Controlling Faction of the Hex, let alone anyone else.

Foraging in the wild might feed an adventuring party for a while, but when everyone is going out picking the wilds clean ... s#@& will start to fly.

You'll have people ganking each other over a dead rabbit. Sources of food and medical herbs in the wilds will be over-harvested and disappear, possibly forever. The local NPC Druids will be pissed, and probably start rallying the local wildlife to start eating the PCs.

The bandits are still trying to attack the farms ... but get nothing now. The Farmers have banded together and have hidden their live-stock and their seed-crops, and won't tell where they are now.

Eventually the 'Heroes' in charge of the Hex listen to the 'Farmers' who decided to play Farm-Sim:Swords and Sorcery Edition and get told that No Protection = No Food. And if they don't like it, the Farmers will burn down their own farms and up and walk to a new Hex with the story of how the Heroes won't even look after their own home.

Players start to patrol the surrounding lands, in exchange they get food from the Farmers. The Bandits come back yet again and are repulsed, and now, there are names and faces to put the blame for this food-shortage to!

Now there's a lot of peeved off people after the Bandits for putting everyone through these shenanigans, the Players are focused on hunting them down, the Farmers can start to build up their Herds and Crops again, burnt farms are rebuilt and the Controlling Faction of 'Heroes' starts to put out contracts for players to patrol their lands while they return to their 'new' Hex, a lot poorer but now with the food supply restored, their original Hex can now start to prosper again.

[Hardin Steele]

This sounds like it should be when PFO rolls out. I am hoping it will be necessary to eat and drink (eating just fo rhte buff is silly and food should be necessary to keep you alive). Having viable farms producing large amounts of raw food product should be an integral part of the food and crafting experience.

[Carbon D. Metric]

I plan to personally guard my homestead and farmlands as if it were my castle. I have protection with the Keepers of the Circle, and have already done work to ensure my farmland will hopefully stay free of too much vandalism, and evil work.

There might be a day however when somebody gets that bright idea, and I have to crush their head with my plow, plant a nice tree over their body.

[Bringslite]

Carbon D. Metric wrote:

There might be a day however when somebody gets that bright idea, and I have to crush their head with my plow, plant a nice tree over their body.

Hehehe

[Being]

The general idea is that younger player characters in areas near the NPC settlements and more advanced player characters in more challenging areas will suppress the two-headed mongoloid bandit population. The farmer or their community simply need to hire patrols of PCs, adding to the economy and enhancing the play of the young.

[Sintaqx]

It's highly unlikely that food will provide more than a buff, albeit it may be a buff that you may not want to lapse much.

For farmsteading, I figure it may well be handled like a self-sustaining resource node, where the farmer determines what the resource itself will be. Like lumber camps and the like, the farmer would probably provide a leadership/manager bonus while he's around, hopefully with additional productivity-increasing tasks he can perform while there. The resource would likely be moved from field/pasture(node) to silo by invisible NPC farm/ranch hands, with the farmer responsible for getting that to the settlement. Rather than a seasonal influx like you see in life, it would probably be a measured flow.

I kinda see farming as being alot like Planetary Interaction in EVE. I can also see bandits and mercs hired to attack the farmsteads to disrupt the flow of essential, settlement-sustaining goods into the settlement.

[Hardin Steele]

I do have to agree with Halforc above in the hope food and drink is a necessary thing. I know most players do not want to HAVE to eat and drink, but those features would add so much more to the game...farming and cooking, inns and taverns, settlement seiges, starving out your opponent, blockade runners trying to fight through a seige with a large caravan of food wagons and other supplies. I just see it as completing that portion of game play, and I hope they work it in.

[HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise]

Game-Play wise, I'd see the need to eat and drink as a + vs -

No food, you get the 'Starvation' debuff, which drops XP gain by 10%, attacks are slower, caster's 'recharge' time to replenish their spell-slots takes longer, etc. Not crippling debuffs, but enough to seriously slow you down.

There's the 'Fed' state, which the Player/PC has had adequate sustenance. Basic flat state, no buffs or debuffs, basically playing as they did at the very first moment they joined the game.

There's the 'Well Fed' state, when the player eats good, high-quality food, granting a small boost to the speed of their attacks, 'recharge' times and stamina regeneration.

Alcohol slows your reflexes slightly and makes it harder for you to use bluff or other inter-personal skills to determine if somebody is leading you on, but also provides a small bonus to fear resistance and makes you a bit 'loose' in the body, so you're limp if you get knocked flying and don't take so much damage.

Obviously, magical 'Brew' might have greater or stranger benefits, but that's a different kettle of fish.

The Ring of Sustenance becomes a boon for players who live in the Wilds and lack the ammenities to turn their gathered materials into useful food sources.

Basic Foods would include bread, dried beef/pork/jerky, travel-cakes, spring-water, etc.

Good Foods would include Wine, Beer, Ale, soups, stews, roasted meats, stuff that's not easily made in the wild without supplies and cooking gear.

Excellent Foods would include Feasts, high-quality Mead and extremely fancy stuff that can only be made in larger communities and aren't portable by foot. These are the sort of things you bring by wagon or pack-horse, just before the big fight.

Now, obviously I don't think there should be a 'cooking' badge, but the making of said foods should be relatively difficult. Basic Foods are available to everyone, but Good Foods take time to make, and Excellent Foods are quite expensive in the terms of the volume of food-stuff needed and the rarity of certain ingredients.

And of course, the meals won't last forever ... so do you make the big Excellent Meal, and risk having all those ingredients rot because nobody has a need for it yet, or do you go instead for the Good Meal and flood the market with your finished goods?

[Sintaqx]

GW has more 'carrot' than 'stick' in their overall design goals, and as such a debuff like starvation is unlikely to be used. In games, especially MMOs, such things bring to mind a big flashing sign saying 'Have you pooped today?'. Standard maintenance actions like eating and pooping are assumed to be taken care of as a matter of course. Instead of a balanced ternary system (-1,0,1), it's far more likely to see an unbalanced, or standard ternary (0,1,2). Normal is normal. Fed, minor buff, Well Fed additional buff.

As for siege situations and starving the inhabitants into capitulation, it would make more sense to apply a siege-specific 'starvation' debuff if it got to that point.

[IronVanguard]

Since XP is time based, a debuff to XP gain wouldn't really fly well.

Also, why not a cooking badge? Cooking should be just as viable a Expert tree as Weaponsmithing or Leatherworking, in complexity and style if not profit.

[Bluddwolf]

Bringslite wrote:

I would still like the option of striking out into the wilderness and starting my own farm. Kinda like a poorman's low budget way to start a settlement. If I can keep it safe from bandits, monsters, territory agressors, etc. then others could come to farm, preach, smith goods, process my goods, etc. Boom! A settlement pops up.

If by "my own", you mean solo and without hiring NPC guards or PC guards, you would present a low risk / low to medium reward target.

You would make an ideal target for bandits in training and a target hard to pass up for even moderately skilled bandits.

This then brings me to one of our previous discussions of what could constitute griefing? If you present such a soft target, using none if the protective tools provided, is it really griefing if bandits ( the same or many different) continue to go to the free meal ticket?

In the unsafe, lawless hexes, you do not have the right to the expectation that you will be unmolested.

[Milo Goodfellow]

IMHO if the same bandit came to the same farm several times a day, depending on CDs and things, that would be griefing. Now if they stopped once a day for their "protection" money, then I would say that is fair and should be expected. As you said, if you choose to forgo the built in protections provided, then your at the mercy of those that need to make their living. There Is still a difference between playing the bad guy and ruining someone else's fun.

[Bluddwolf]

@Milo

I agree and did not mean to suggest to return to the same target, in the same day. There would probably be little to take on repeat visits in the same day.

But it would certain make sense to return in a few days, to see how's business?

I'm sure that after a few visits, even the most stubborn farmers will get the idea that they need guards or they at least need to change the risk vs reward differential they are presenting.

Low risk, medium rewards will always lead to more attacks.

[Bringslite]

Bluddwolf wrote:

Bringslite wrote:

I would still like the option of striking out into the wilderness and starting my own farm. Kinda like a poorman's low budget way to start a settlement. If I can keep it safe from bandits, monsters, territory agressors, etc. then others could come to farm, preach, smith goods, process my goods, etc. Boom! A settlement pops up.

If by "my own", you mean solo and without hiring NPC guards or PC guards, you would present a low risk / low to medium reward target.

You would make an ideal target for bandits in training and a target hard to pass up for even moderately skilled bandits.

This then brings me to one of our previous discussions of what could constitute griefing? If you present such a soft target, using none if the protective tools provided, is it really griefing if bandits ( the same or many different) continue to go to the free meal ticket?

In the unsafe, lawless hexes, you do not have the right to the expectation that you will be unmolested.

I think "would like the option" is the key to that sentence. Also "If I can keep it safe". I would need to find ways to do that. Maybe you should read the post before shooting it down?

[Bluddwolf]

I did not shoot it down, I began with a question: Did you mean solo?

Of course you have the option to do whatever you like in a sand box MMO.

As far as "keeping it safe", well I guess it would be safe if no one bothers with it, but in a lawless / wilderness hex, that is not likely.

As I wrote earlier, if you present a low risk / medium reward target, you will be attacked frequently. At the very least you will have to present a medium / medium image of your farmstead and preferably a hard / medium risk vs. reward posture.

The "By Myself" and the "in the Wilderness" are the two operative words that will have the most impact on plans.

But you are more than welcome to exercise your right to take whatever risks for whatever rewards you choose to. I only question your expectations.

[Bringslite]

My expectations are null. I know that there will be bandits. As things are clearly planned, it would be foolish to put up a spot like that. Of course it would be juicy looking to bandits.

I guess that a lone wilderness farmer would have to make treaty with local bandits. What would he do with all of his produce anyway? In that case, Bandits would be "the local Government" and provide the protection. At least until more people moved in and an acceptable govt. could be established.

My idea was more a wish to play that frontier pioneer type character. Farm steader, hunter, trapper, whatever. It is just "a wish" though as the game stands.

[Bluddwolf]

Bringslite wrote:

My expectations are null. I know that there will be bandits. As things are clearly planned, it would be foolish to put up a spot like that. Of course it would be juicy looking to bandits.

I guess that a lone wilderness farmer would have to make treaty with local bandits. What would he do with all of his produce anyway? In that case, Bandits would be "the local Government" and provide the protection. At least until more people moved in and an acceptable govt. could be established.

My idea was more a wish to play that frontier pioneer type character. Farm steader, hunter, trapper, whatever. It is just "a wish" though as the game stands.

Yes, you can at your wilderness "lone" farmer. Yes, you would need to protect yourself, with guards, or players ...... But then are you truly "by myself" or "lone"?

That was the only point I was trying to make. You always have the option, it just might prove to be not very viable if you are frequently victimized.

There is one dynamic that is unknown that my give you some comfort. In EvE online you can find a small system out in the far reaches of nowhere and go weeks or even months without seeing another soul. Now I don't expect PFO to have even 1 /10 the map size of EvE, but you may still be able to find a little cubby hole where few if any ever tread.

[Bringslite]

Bluddwolf wrote:

Bringslite wrote:

My expectations are null. I know that there will be bandits. As things are clearly planned, it would be foolish to put up a spot like that. Of course it would be juicy looking to bandits.

I guess that a lone wilderness farmer would have to make treaty with local bandits. What would he do with all of his produce anyway? In that case, Bandits would be "the local Government" and provide the protection. At least until more people moved in and an acceptable govt. could be established.

My idea was more a wish to play that frontier pioneer type character. Farm steader, hunter, trapper, whatever. It is just "a wish" though as the game stands.

Yes, you can at your wilderness "lone" farmer. Yes, you would need to protect yourself, with guards, or players ...... But then are you truly "by myself" or "lone"?

That was the only point I was trying to make. You always have the option, it just might prove to be not very viable if you are frequently victimized.

There is one dynamic that is unknown that my give you some comfort. In EvE online you can find a small system out in the far reaches of nowhere and go weeks or even months without seeing another soul. Now I don't expect PFO to have even 1 /10 the map size of EvE, but you may still be able to find a little cubby hole where few if any ever tread.

Sounds like the kind of spot in UO where if you were patient enuf with the house placement tool, you could squeeze a house into a spot. The remoteness of the spot and orneriness of the tool were 2 barriers to people's interest in the area. You could gather in "relative" safety and had your house near for storage.

[Bluddwolf]

Thinking of your idea, if you were CN, and stuck yourself in the heart of the most dangerous wilderness, a place we of the UnNamed will have our sights in, we could come to an arrangement were we would not only leave you alone, but barter in support of each other.

The wilderness itself becomes your moat, and you would be our rest area.