So, I'm curious when you know that someones spellcasting. I know its supposed to be obvious with loud words and visible hand movements, but how smart do you have to be? I have the following examples and I was curious if there was a raw or if everyone had a different interpretation. The following npcs have no ranks in spellcraft or knowledge Arcana.
Would a 7 int fighter know when your doing it?
Would a 4 int magical beast/outsider know it?
Would a 2 int animal know it?
Would a - int vermin know it?
Up to GM adjudication.
Even the int 1 humanoid could put a skill point into spellcraft - which by its nature would allow them a chance (albeit a poor one) of recognizing a spell as it is being cast. Identifying that it is a spell at all should be easier to recognize than identifying the exact spell.
But some creatures (all non-intelligent animals for example - which would mean int 1 or 2) have no concept of spells. So understanding that a spell is cast wouldn't really be meaningful to such a creature to alter its behavior.
Well thats a rather antagonistic and possibly personal question Lazar. I never question taking AoOs. It came up during a game where I got charged by a vermin for dropping a flaming sphere on its web. The DM had it charge around a corner and I questioned him but let it slide, it avoided at least 10 other screaming npcs and all 3 other players and tackled the wizard in back. Int - knew spells or something I guess.
I know spellcasters are a dime a dozen. My personal responce is yes to the first 2, no to the last 2. At best I think the 2 int animal would hate you flailing and chanting or however you fluff your spellcasting. I wanted other opinions or a RAW responce to this. If I know a RAW I can bring that up, if I know other people think vermin would know when a spellcaster is casting I'll feel better at least.
Don't suppose you have a personal opinion to share? My examples were mostly non humanoid. Human at its worst is 7 in a point buy, hellhound is an example of 4, dog is an example of 2, and giant spiders are -.
If you were on the web at the time I can give your gm a bit of slack but if not then his version of the giant spider is way smarter than mine
I wasn't even close to the web. That would be highly understandable! I'd make a terrible snack imo, the paladin had much more meat. I on the other hand was covered in spiked armor and didn't have much to go around.
Edit: Also thats a bit off track...
RAW wise, this is probably about the closest to any kind of answer you might get. Taken from the animal skills section on druid companions.
Animal companions can have ranks in any of the following skills: Acrobatics* (Dex), Climb* (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Fly* (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Perception* (Wis), Stealth* (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim* (Str). All of the skills marked with an (*) are class skills for animal companions. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can put ranks into any skill.
At int 2 the animal does not have spellcraft or knowledge arcana as skills available to it. At 3 intelligence it does.
Well with 1 int you can still fallow trends... if you are around spell casters all the time you would be able to know something was happening
Ie pets know when you are about to leave before you head for the door.
However no int at all I think not
If something bad had happened I would make a stink but if you lived and didnt get permanent harm in any way just let him know you think he should really put more thought into thinking (away from the other players)
RAW wise, this is probably about the closest to any kind of answer you might get. Taken from the animal skills section on druid companions.
Animal companions can have ranks in any of the following skills: Acrobatics* (Dex), Climb* (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Fly* (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Perception* (Wis), Stealth* (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim* (Str). All of the skills marked with an (*) are class skills for animal companions. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can put ranks into any skill.At int 2 the animal does not have spellcraft or knowledge arcana as skills available to it. At 3 intelligence it does.
I'll use that if it ever comes up again. Its mostly universal and not just limited to animal companions.
The DM who did it was regularly a jerk to me Dax. I usually don't object unless I feel like somethings way out of line. I've got a lot of bad stories about him, but I like to keep questions about mechanics impersonal. Came up in PFS anyway so its not like I had to see him again.
I'm not quiet sure if that will float Kiinyan. Its a decent fluff arguement but not so good for a RAW. I don't realy agree with it unless its something that particularly affects animals. I think once you set something on fire it knows something is wrong no matter what you've done, and it wouldn't be able to discern what just happened.
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I don't think the rules cover it. Spellcraft covers identification of specific spells, but not that spellcasting itself is happening. I don't think many people accept the idea that a rank in Spellcraft is required to make the trained only check that would be needed to know that a spell was being cast. Most PCs certainly don't act that way. :)
As far as OP's situation, I would view the spider as having been role-played in a manner inconsistent with its stats. Animal intelligence: might know something weird is happening. Unintelligent vermin: they're mindless..they don't have a clue. "That guy is casting a spell!" seems like a cultural knowledge thing to me. Meaning, it's going to be known to any intelligent creature in an campaign setting that is magic rich, and is going to be known by few in a setting that is magic poor.
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I don't think the rules cover it. Spellcraft covers identification of specific spells, but not that spellcasting itself is happening. I don't think many people accept the idea that a rank in Spellcraft is required to make the trained only check that would be needed to know that a spell was being cast. Most PCs certainly don't act that way. :)
Yeah, the rules don't cover it.
But if a GM would allow a Knowledge (Arcana) skill check to recognise that a spell is being cast (not identify the spell, just recognise that spellcasting is occurring) and he then assigns that recognition a DC of 10 or less then any PC could attempt that Knowledge (Arcana) check untrained.
Personally I would go with that, make it Knowledge (Arcana) check DC zero; so unless a PC has a -1 Int modifier or better he auto succeeds, and even Int 7 PCs would succeed 95% of the time (and if out of combat could Take 10).
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I don't think the rules cover it. Spellcraft covers identification of specific spells, but not that spellcasting itself is happening. I don't think many people accept the idea that a rank in Spellcraft is required to make the trained only check that would be needed to know that a spell was being cast. Most PCs certainly don't act that way. :)Yeah, the rules don't cover it.
But if a GM would allow a Knowledge (Arcana) skill check to recognise that a spell is being cast (not identify the spell, just recognise that spellcasting is occurring) and he then assigns that recognition a DC of 10 or less then any PC could attempt that Knowledge (Arcana) check untrained.
Personally I would go with that, make it Knowledge (Arcana) check DC zero; so unless a PC has a -1 Int modifier or better he auto succeeds, and even Int 7 PCs would succeed 95% of the time (and if out of combat could Take 10).
The only problem with this that I see, unless I am crazy, is that Knowledge (Arcana) is a trained only skill, which means it can't be used untrained. At least that's how I have always run the knowledge skills. Maybe its a houserule I have always had, but I am pretty sure its RAW. (No access to books at this time.) That said, if I am right, even in a very magic rich campaign going off of those rules, unless someone spends a skill point for it (unlikely for a fighter, who would greatly benefit from knowing when BBEG is casting a spell) then they automatically fail.
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I don't have the books with me right now, but aren't vermin mindless? The kind of advanced reasoning that goes "hey, things just got burny here - that wizard did it" should be entirely beyond them. "Pain! Pain! Let's lash out at the nearest thing!" is more what I'd expect.
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The only problem with this that I see, unless I am crazy, is that Knowledge (Arcana) is a trained only skill, which means it can't be used untrained.
Untrained: You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10.
Ergo, you can make a Knowledge check untrained if the DC is 10 or less.
Hence why I wrote "assigns that recognition a DC of 10 or less then any PC could attempt that Knowledge (Arcana) check untrained".
Basically, every PC with an Intelligence Score or 10 or more is assumed (as long as they aren't flustered and can Take 10) to know the answer to all "really easy questions" (DC 10) about any knowledge whatsoever.
I don't have the books with me right now, but aren't vermin mindless? The kind of advanced reasoning that goes "hey, things just got burny here - that wizard did it" should be entirely beyond them. "Pain! Pain! Let's lash out at the nearest thing!" is more what I'd expect.
Yeah, that was my thought. Thats how I usually play animals myself.
On another note, most of whats being talked about applies to humanoids. I feel like intellegent humanoids would almost always knows whats going on.
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Well thats a rather antagonistic and possibly personal question Lazar. I never question taking AoOs. It came up during a game where I got charged by a vermin for dropping a flaming sphere on its web. The DM had it charge around a corner and I questioned him but let it slide, it avoided at least 10 other screaming npcs and all 3 other players and tackled the wizard in back. Int - knew spells or something I guess.
I know spellcasters are a dime a dozen. My personal responce is yes to the first 2, no to the last 2. At best I think the 2 int animal would hate you flailing and chanting or however you fluff your spellcasting. I wanted other opinions or a RAW responce to this. If I know a RAW I can bring that up, if I know other people think vermin would know when a spellcaster is casting I'll feel better at least.
Don't suppose you have a personal opinion to share? My examples were mostly non humanoid. Human at its worst is 7 in a point buy, hellhound is an example of 4, dog is an example of 2, and giant spiders are -.
It charged from around a corner?
To charge it:
1) need to have a line of sight with you at the start of its movement,
2) move toward you along a straight route without obstacles. "If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge."
- * -
About detecting your magic use, if speaking of creatures with intelligence - or animal, I could allow that kind of detection if it was a magical beast and only for some of them (and only if there is a basis for that at least in the fluff of the creature, better if it has some specific ability). Some kind of giant spider seem out of the question.
The only justification could be that the creature felt some kind of "wrongness" emanating from you when you did cast the spell, but you have that kind of mechanic in Ars Magica, not in Pathfinder or D&D.
I'd have some questions if something of animal or null intelligence targeted a spellcaster when other enemies were closer and a more obvious threat. Certainly anything with an Int of less than 3 should not - in my opinion - be capable of rationalizing spellcasting in the same way that real life animals don't rationalize firearms.
Real life animals don't rationalize firearms? I've never actually seen their reaction beyond skittering.
If you want to know what made that example particularly messy, there was a paladin he just spat web at 10 feet from him. Instead he charged the wizard 40 feet away based on the logic it knew I was spellcasting. I thought the thing was a magical beast until the DM said it was immune to mind affecting abilites(The paladin had enforcer/blade of mercy combo).
Again though, not the point of the post at all. Just when it came up and why I was asking. I think I have a general concensus though. Vermin really shouldn't know whats going on.
This reminds me of the another question about a similar, yet opposite situation. Suppose a druid shapechanges into a bat and flies past you at night and casts Baleful Polymorph. Can you tell he's casting, and if so, how? I think it's better to assume that casting a spell always attracts attention, due to glowing special effects or whatever, and you don't need spellcraft to know that something is going on.
Real life animals don't rationalize firearms? I've never actually seen their reaction beyond skittering.
Dogs that go duck hunting and such are fine bc they are around it all the time
This reminds me of the another question about a similar, yet opposite situation. Suppose a druid shapechanges into a bat and flies past you at night and casts Baleful Polymorph. Can you tell he's casting, and if so, how? I think it's better to assume that casting a spell always attracts attention, due to glowing special effects or whatever, and you don't need spellcraft to know that something is going on.
By RAW? Its not silent, nor still spell. You still have to make gestures and vocals as an animal. How that looks as a bat I have no idea, but you still are supposed to know its doing it. I guess it would be sort of like discerning a diminutive creature or a dragon is casting, or some sort of slug. You know its doing it but... its just wierd. Not that you'd care long if you were hit by a baleful polymorph... Flavor how you want, by RAW there isn't a bright glow or hum unless its psionics in 3.5, arcane spellcasting is gestures and words that you can hear and see.