No, both modify revelations.
There's no actual conflict between them mechanically, since Dual-Cursed simply grants more revelations and two other possible choices for revelations, while Warsighted replaces certain specific revelations.
The 'purist' argument would say that they both alter 'revelations' in the abstract so they can't be combined, while the 'realist' argument is that there's no actual conflict and no conflicting 'replacement' text, so they can. I don't know what the latest official commentary is, if any.
Official commentary is 'purist'. The class feature is revelations. Any change, addition, subtraction from or removal of the class feature invalidates it for any other archetype that changes, alters, subtracts from or removes that class feature.
The primary reason to maintain a purist view is that not all archetypes make changes to a class feature in an equal fashion. Many archetypes use different class features to balance a stronger or weaker ability elsewhere for example.
Of course there are some combos that are reasonable to houserule, but that would be up to the GM.
And that isn't modifying the revelations class feature by adding two revelations how, exactly?
I'm pretty sure adding extra revelations is more substantial than adding a new class skill.
you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class.
Although not relevant for this example it does look like I need to be more careful in future with the blanket 'no', as class features can be subdivided - which I didn't realise. Warsighted should be just fine with psychic searcher or planar oracle and I would have nixed those.
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Because the Revelations are a grouping of features, and you're adding some, not taking away or altering them. Case in point it does not say "this modifies the Revelations class ability".
The faq you linked even agrees with this.
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.
Because the Revelations are a grouping of features, and you're adding some, not taking away or altering it. Case in point it's does not say "this modifies the Revelations class ability".
The faq you linked even agrees with this.
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.
keep reading and you get to the bold/italics.
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keep reading and you get to the bold/italics.Because the Revelations are a grouping of features, and you're adding some, not taking away or altering it. Case in point it's does not say "this modifies the Revelations class ability".
The faq you linked even agrees with this.
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.
And read right before that for what that is in reference to, the parent feature, which is not being modified.
Of course it modifies the parent feature. How can it not?
The parent feature only grants 6 revelations, dual cursed increases it by 2. That is a fundamental change. Much more fundamental than adding a bonus feat to the list of bonus feats, or a skill to your class skills.
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I'm saying it doesn't modify the parent ability since it doesn't A) do something in the vein of "you gain an extra revelation every level" and B) does not contain the "this alters the Revelation Class Ability" text. Because it doesn't.
It simply gives you extra Revelations at certain levels, completely irreverent to your other Revelations and Revelations ability.
By the FAQ:
Warsighted replaces sub-features. Therefore, you can't combine Warsighted with an Archetype that "alters the way the parent class feature works".
This is further specified: "This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class."
Dual-Cursed changes the number of Revelations that you can take, and adds other revelations to the list. Given the examples above, Dual-Cursed certainly seems to qualify as altering the way the parent class feature works. Compare "adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select" with adding new Revelations to the list of Revelations you can select. Compare "adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day" to adding to the number of times you may select a Revelation. Moreover, the FAQ states "This even applies for something as small as..." implying that the threshold for what constitutes a change to the parent class feature is extremely low. When you put all of this together, it seems pretty clear that there's a conflict between these Archetypes.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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does not contain the "this alters the Revelation Class Ability" text. Because it doesn't.
That is entirely irrelevant. A lot of abilities done have the "this modifies".
Adding options to a class feature are a lot like adding class skills to a class skill list. We know two archetypes that "add x to class spell list" don't stack. So why should we think two things that add revelation options should stack?
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By the FAQ:
Warsighted replaces sub-features. Therefore, you can't combine Warsighted with an Archetype that "alters the way the parent class feature works".
This is further specified: "This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class."
Dual-Cursed changes the number of Revelations that you can take, and adds other revelations to the list. Given the examples above, Dual-Cursed certainly seems to qualify as altering the way the parent class feature works. Compare "adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select" with adding new Revelations to the list of Revelations you can select. Compare "adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day" to adding to the number of times you may select a Revelation. Moreover, the FAQ states "This even applies for something as small as..." implying that the threshold for what constitutes a change to the parent class feature is extremely low. When you put all of this together, it seems pretty clear that there's a conflict between these Archetypes.
Then how do you explain the bolded part of the FaQ?
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.
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Take for instance the example given in the FaQ regarding Bardic Perfomance. Going off of that it's okay if archetypes swap out specific performances, but not if something gives you extra rounds of Bardic Perfomance per day since that modifies the Parent Feature rather than a subset Perfomance.
Dual Curse gives you two extra Revelations at the listed levels, it in no way modifies whole Revelation ability or in how all the other Revelations work.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Dual Curse gives you two extra Revelations at the listed levels, it in no way modifies whole Revelation ability or in how all the other Revelations work.
Other archetypes didn't "change" the class features, they just added two new class skills to the list.
Wait, that is changing isn't it.
And since it doesn't replace the revelations at levels, it modifies the whole class feature by adding two new ones.
A dual-cursed oracle gains a new revelation at 5th level and 13th level. These are in addition to the normal revelations she receives at 3rd level, 7th level, and so on. In addition, the cursed oracle may select the following revelations in place of a mystery revelation.
Both of these modify the normal revelation ability. A normal oracle doesn't have revelations at 5th and 13th level, so a change to revelation class feature. A normal oracle doesn't have access to the two new revelations, so a second change to the revelation class feature.
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Dual Curse gives you two extra Revelations at the listed levels, it in no way modifies whole Revelation ability or in how all the other Revelations work.Other archetypes didn't "change" the class features, they just added two new class skills to the list.
Wait, that is changing isn't it.
And since it doesn't replace the revelations at levels, it modifies the whole class feature by adding two new ones.
Skills are one thing, Revelations are a group yet unique at the same time since you get them at specific intervals.
Also saying it doesn't remove specific Revelaions at certain levels but gives them at certain levels means it changes the whole Revelation class ability is a very skewed way of looking at it.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Skills are one thing, Revelations are a group yet unique at the same time since you get them at specific intervals.
Also saying it doesn't remove specific Revelaions at certain levels but gives them at certain levels means it changes the whole Revelation class ability is a very skewed way of looking at it.
You are 100% right there.
One of the archetypes does exactly that, modify revelations gained at certain levels.The other (Dual Curse) modifies the revelation class feature and not any revelation.
You call it skewed, the devs and the FAQ call it the rules.
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A dual-cursed oracle gains a new revelation at 5th level and 13th level. These are in addition to the normal revelations she receives at 3rd level, 7th level, and so on. In addition, the cursed oracle may select the following revelations in place of a mystery revelation.Both of these modify the normal revelation ability. A normal oracle doesn't have revelations at 5th and 13th level, so a change to revelation class feature. A normal oracle doesn't have access to the two new revelations, so a second change to the revelation class feature.
Except as I just said Revelations are unique in that they a grouping of unique abilities. There is not a Revelation class ability. There is though Revelations class abilities.
And the second thing, adding new Revelations that they can choose from, would only limit if another archetype did the same.
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Skills are one thing, Revelations are a group yet unique at the same time since you get them at specific intervals.
Also saying it doesn't remove specific Revelaions at certain levels but gives them at certain levels means it changes the whole Revelation class ability is a very skewed way of looking at it.You are 100% right there.
One of the archetypes does exactly that, modify revelations gained at certain levels.The other (Dual Curse) modifies the revelation class feature and not any revelation.
You call it skewed, the devs and the FAQ call it the rules.
The Dual Curse does modify specific Revelations at certain levels. By giving them to you.
I doubt it's a rule that something that takes away only affects what it takes away, but what gives affects the whole thing instead of just what it gives. That is skewed logic.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The Dual Curse does modify specific Revelations at certain levels. By giving them to you.
You use the word modify.
The developers and FAQ consider all words:
modify, add, replace, exchange, alter, adjust, enhance, reduce, transmute, eliminate, touch, etc.
You are using the same kind of logic that has consistently produced FAQ that disagree with your logic. For another example cross blooded and wild blooded was asserted to stack for ages, before a FAQ saying they don't stack.
All cross blooded did is provide two options for you to choose.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Yes, I use the word modify, the archetype ability does not.
Again, they make it clear the words "this modifies" and "this replaces" are not required and are not even in all of the archetypes.
More to the point, none of the archetypes in Ultimate Magic use the words "this modifies" or "this replaces". So in your world they all stack regardless.
So with your logic, you could be a dual cursed, Enlightened Philosopher, Planar Oracle, Possessed Oracle, Seer, Stargazer oracle. None of them say "modifies" or "replaces."
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Um actually yes they do, otherwise we end up in conversations like this.
Yes they do what? They "do need to put replaces/modifies and when they don't you are free to do whatever"?
Unless you are suddenly agreeing with me, then we end up in conversations like this when people try to assert a rule doesn't apply when it does.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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@Rysky how about a hypothetical. Let's test some knowledge I know the developer position on this question. Do you?
You have an archetype that only grants a new class feature called "I'm awesome". Now the I'm Awesome abilities all do cool stuff. The only way you can take an I"m Awesome ability is via swapping out a Bonus Feat the class grants (Wizard, Fighter, Ranger, etc all 3 have a different archetype.)
By RAW, can I take this with an archetype that alters any bonus feat feature? Say like replaces one at a level? Or adds new options like Mounted Combat feats?
Or would the "I'm Awesome" ability modify the Bonus Feat class feature?
Think well, as I'll post a developer comment labeling this as legal or not legal.
It's the exact same scenario as this.
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Sorry, that was supposed to be "are", not "do".
And I'm not agreeing with you. You're of the opinion that when a suite of abilities that reoccur or increase that unless it specifically says it modifies or replaces a part of it then by default it alters the entire ability.
Which I believe is not true, in this instance since Dual Curse adds Revelations, it doesn't replace, or modify. Would you have rather they put in a disclaimer that said "gaining these Revelations does not modify the Revelations Class Abilities"? That seems very superfluous.
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@Rysky how about a hypothetical. Let's test some knowledge I know the developer position on this question. Do you?
You have an archetype that only grants a new class feature called "I'm awesome". Now the I'm Awesome abilities all do cool stuff. The only way you can take an I"m Awesome ability is via swapping out a Bonus Feat the class grants (Wizard, Fighter, Ranger, etc all 3 have a different archetype.)
By RAW, can I take this with an archetype that alters any bonus feat feature? Say like replaces one at a level? Or adds new options like Mounted Combat feats?
Or would the "I'm Awesome" ability modify the Bonus Feat class feature?
Think well, as I'll post a developer comment labeling this as legal or not legal.
It's the exact same scenario as this.
It depends, is it altering/taking away what Bonus Feats the class gives, or is it altering/taking a Bonus Feat gained at a specific level?
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Which I believe is not true, in this instance since Dual Curse adds Revelations, it doesn't replace, or modify
Adding is modifying. Adding class skills modified the class skill list and a whole lot of people spent hundreds of posts saying that adding didn't modify or replace. So we ended up with a FAQ saying it is.
It depends, is it altering/taking away what Bonus Feats the class gives, or is it altering/taking a Bonus Feat gained at a specific level?
The "I'm awesome" ability doesn't modify or replace (or say anything) the bonus feats. It simply says that these are other options you could take if you gained a Bonus Feat other than the normal types of bonus feats.
Let's go with an Example:
Wizard I'm Awesome archetype.
Whenever you may take a bonus metamagic feat, you may take an "I'm Awesome" class feature instead.
Would this stack with an ability that modifies or replaces a bonus feat class feature?
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Which I believe is not true, in this instance since Dual Curse adds Revelations, it doesn't replace, or modifyAdding is modifying. Adding class skills modified the class skill list and a whole lot of people spent hundreds of posts saying that adding didn't modify or replace. So we ended up with a FAQ saying it is.
Except your not modifying the class ability, your modifying the class. Adding/Removing/Replacing skills modifies the Class skill list which is it's own specific thing. Revelations are a suite of abilities that are gained at intervals. Dual Curse gets Extra Revelations completely independent of the other Revelations.
It depends, is it altering/taking away what Bonus Feats the class gives, or is it altering/taking a Bonus Feat gained at a specific level?The "I'm awesome" ability doesn't modify or replace (or say anything) the bonus feats. It simply says that these are other options you could take if you gained a Bonus Feat other than the normal types of bonus feats.
Let's go with an Example:
Wizard I'm Awesome archetype.
Whenever you may take a bonus metamagic feat, you may take an "I'm Awesome" class feature instead.
Would this stack with an ability that modifies or replaces a bonus feat class feature?
Hmm I'm not for sure, since it's giving you the choice of swapping them out when you get the bonus feat, this reminds me of the Qinggong monk archetype.
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Just looked around and apparently there's not been any answered FaQ regarding the Qinggong Monk, soeveryone's still split into two camps on that.
My opinion? Since it allows you to choose to swap out an ability or keep it I'd allow it (and your awesome archetype) to stack with others that replace the ability that you would normally have the option of choosing either to keep or swap out.
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Revelations are a suite of abilities that are gained at intervals. Dual Curse gets Extra Revelations completely independent of the other Revelations.This is incorrect. "Revelation" is quite clearly spelled out in the Oracle entry as a Class Feature:
"Revelation: At 1st level, 3rd level, and every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and so on), an oracle uncovers a new secret about her mystery that grants her powers and abilities. The oracle must select a revelation from the list of revelations available to her mystery. If a revelation is chosen at a later level, the oracle gains all of the abilities and bonuses granted by that revelation based on her current level. Unless otherwise noted, activating the power of a revelation is a standard action."
Dual-cursed adds two possible Revelations that are not normally provided by this class ability. There can be no reasonable argument that this isn't a modification. Normally, the Revelation class ability gives a choice from ability list X; Dual Cursed gives a choice from list X+2, and gets two additional choices.
Modify
"to change somewhat the form or qualities of; alter partially"
(Dictionary.com)
And I believe it is perfectly reasonable that it isn't modifying the Revelation class abilities, it doesn't modify/replace/or alter the track of gaining the default ones, it merely gives the Oracle class two extra at certain levels.
Question, would we even be having this conversation if at those levels it went the extra bit and said you gained the Extra Revelation Feat instead of just saying you get an extra Revelation?
Though I do agree that those two Revelations that Dual Curse allows you pick (Fortune and Misfortune) from alters it and would not allow another archetype that alters what Revelations you're allowed to pick from, going off the Bonus Feat stipulation in the FaQ.
It doesn't stack. Dual alters revelations by changing how many you receive. So it wont stack with anything that touches revelations.
"At 1st level, 3rd level, and every four levels thereafter"
"gains a new revelation at 5th level and 13th level."
Yeah, that's changing by adding.
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It doesn't stack. Dual alters revelations by changing how many you receive. So it wont stack with anything that touches revelations.
"At 1st level, 3rd level, and every four levels thereafter"
"gains a new revelation at 5th level and 13th level."
Yeah, that's changing by adding.
By that line of thought then no Oracle archetype (save for Black Blooded and Elven Lorekeeper), let alone Wardsighted, can stack with any other archetype since they all modify specific Revelations at certain levels even if they don't overlap.
"This ability replaces the revelations gained at 1st, 7th, 11th, and 15th levels."
In direct opposition of the FaQ (multiple archetypes trading out different parts of Weapon Training given as an example)
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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My opinion? Since it allows you to choose to swap out an ability or keep it I'd allow it (and your awesome archetype) to stack with others that replace the ability that you would normally have the option of choosing either to keep or swap out.
Well, they don't stack RAW but a developer said he might allow it to as a house rule.
Qinggong is a bit of a different archetype, it deviates pretty strongly from all other archetypes. It was designed to fit every Monk, and was written specifically in that way. Because it deviated, it required a FAQ clarifying how it worked. You will notice it was integrated into the new Unchained Monk.
This is one of those few times where taking one FAQ (the Qinggong one) out of context will lead you to the wrong conclusion.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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By that line of thought then no Oracle archetype (save for Black Blooded and Elven Lorekeeper)
What you are not getting is there is a difference between:
This modifies the Revelation chosen at X level.
This allows you to choose from this other set of revelations.
One only changes the Revelation class feature at X level.
The other changes the Revelation class feature at all levels.
These two things can't stack.
If you can ask the question "Can Archetype A modify/add/replace/alter the class feature that Archetype B replaced?" And the answer is yes, and the archetype isn't Qinggong, then they don't stack.
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My opinion? Since it allows you to choose to swap out an ability or keep it I'd allow it (and your awesome archetype) to stack with others that replace the ability that you would normally have the option of choosing either to keep or swap out.Well, they don't stack RAW but a developer said he might allow it to as a house rule.
Qinggong is a bit of a different archetype, it deviates pretty strongly from all other archetypes. It was designed to fit every Monk, and was written specifically in that way. Because it deviated, it required a FAQ clarifying how it worked. You will notice it was integrated into the new Unchained Monk.
This is one of those few times where taking one FAQ (the Qinggong one) out of context will lead you to the wrong conclusion.
I have not been referring to a FaQ regarding the Qinggong Monk because I did not know there was one, I even said as such in my previous post.
And Okies, Mark says that conbination of archetypes wouldn't work, but just like Mark, I would probably houserule it do so.
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By that line of thought then no Oracle archetype (save for Black Blooded and Elven Lorekeeper)What you are not getting is there is a difference between:
This modifies the Revelation chosen at X level.
This allows you to choose from this other set of revelations.
One only changes the Revelation class feature at X level.
The other changes the Revelation class feature at all levels.These two things can't stack.
If you can ask the question "Can Archetype A modify/add/replace/alter the class feature that Archetype B replaced?" And the answer is yes, and the archetype isn't Qinggong, then they don't stack.
I get that "changes what Revelations you can choose from" would not stack with another archetype that does so.
I'm just of the belief that simply adding/replacing different Revelations at different levels wuld be allowed because I do not believe there is overlap.
Warsighted modifies the Oracle class by replacing Revelations at 1st, 7th, 11th, and 15th levels.
Dual-Cursed Oracle modifies the Oracle class by adding Revelations at 5th and 13 levels.
No overlap.
If something is altering 1 step of the revelation. AKA the revelation at X then it's replaceing or altering a subfeature.
Since this is adding how many you receive it's altering the parent feature of revelation entirely.
It'd be like if an archetype said "The fighter gains an extra weapon training at lv7 and lv13" This is altering weapon training to occur more often, thus the entire weapon training is different and you can no longer trade out subfeatures of it.
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If something is altering 1 step of the revelation. AKA the revelation at X then it's replaceing or altering a subfeature.
Since this is adding how many you receive it's altering the parent feature of revelation entirely.It'd be like if an archetype said "The fighter gains an extra weapon training at lv7 and lv13" This is altering weapon training to occur more often, thus the entire weapon training is different and you can no longer trade out subfeatures of it.
I would agree with that, in regards to weapon training since it is ability that stacks off itself.
But not with "feat, pick from a list" style abilities that don't stack with themselves.
It's the same with bardic performance. If something changed the rounds or bardic performance but nothing else it wouldn't stack with any class that altered any bardic performance.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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A) I'm just of the belief that simply adding/replacing different Revelations at different levels wuld be allowed because I do not believe there is overlap.
B) Warsighted modifies the Oracle class by replacing Revelations at 1st, 7th, 11th, and 15th levels.
C) Dual-Cursed Oracle modifies the Oracle class by adding Revelations at 5th and 13 levels.
D) No overlap.
I'll explain each of your statements. A is 100% true but D is false.
B would stack with anything that replaced Revelations at other levels.
C doesn't replace any revelation with that statement. It modifies the entire class feature to add two new levels you gain Revelations (5 and 13). So it doesn't stack.
You didn't make this statement:
In addition, the cursed oracle may select the following revelations in place of a mystery revelation.
Let's say I agree with you on D using C's logic. They still don't stack because every level of Revelations gain the ability to acquire a different Revelation. So the class feature is modified to add some options.
By that line of thought then no Oracle archetype (save for Black Blooded and Elven Lorekeeper), let alone Wardsighted, can stack with any other archetype since they all modify specific Revelations at certain levels even if they don't overlap.
"This ability replaces the revelations gained at 1st, 7th, 11th, and 15th levels."
In direct opposition of the FaQ (multiple archetypes trading out different parts of Weapon Training given as an example)
One is a direct 1 to 1 replacement, the other adds new options or expands on the ability in some way.
There is a difference between modifying discrete parts, and changing the underlying ability by expanding it.
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It's the same with bardic performance. If something changed the rounds or bardic performance but nothing else it wouldn't stack with any class that altered any bardic performance.
Yes, as stated in the faq. But we're not gaining more rounds of bardic Perfomance, we're getting two additional Perfomances, a subset of the Bardic Performance ability.
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By that line of thought then no Oracle archetype (save for Black Blooded and Elven Lorekeeper), let alone Wardsighted, can stack with any other archetype since they all modify specific Revelations at certain levels even if they don't overlap.
"This ability replaces the revelations gained at 1st, 7th, 11th, and 15th levels."
In direct opposition of the FaQ (multiple archetypes trading out different parts of Weapon Training given as an example)
One is a direct 1 to 1 replacement, the other adds new options or expands on the ability in some way.
There is a difference between modifying discrete parts, and changing the underlying ability by expanding it.
And I do not believe the difference is so great to be unfairly weighted against archetypes that add that they completely shut the whole thing down.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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It's the same with bardic performance. If something changed the rounds or bardic performance but nothing else it wouldn't stack with any class that altered any bardic performance.Yes, as stated in the faq. But we're not gaining more rounds of bardic Perfomance, we're getting two additional Perfomances, a subset of the Bardic Performance ability.
Which modifies the base ability and therefore the FAQ makes it clear it doesn't stack.