|
That's a question you have to ask yourself.
Should I play it safe and make sure I can't die?
Even if those Conviction points might be the difference between finally killing my father's murderer and having him escape again?
Even if falling unconcious at negatives means the high necromancer completes his ritual and sacrifices the city to the dark god?
Death is not the only failure. For this to work, you have to have goals you want to achieve more that just surviving combat.
|
|
Death happens at negative Con, so one point above death would be negative Con plus one. I'm sure the rule was not meant to render the character immune to unconsciousness.
The really handy thing about this rule is that individual players can choose their modes. One player can play Normal, one can play Easy by never raising the flag, while another can play Hard by always raising his flag. You could even play Hardcore by raising the flag and never spending Conviction.
Unconscious and dying after a normal blow, but still with several rounds in which you can be healed or stabilize on your own, is not comparable to going from full hp to dead in one shot, which can easily happen with a two-handed critical.
Someone with a strength of 18 wielding a greatsword deals 2d6+6 damage, or 2d6+9 with Power Attack, so a maximum of 18 or 21 without a critical. A sorcerer or wizard with a CON of 10 would be killed outright from 16 damage (17 with favored class bonus).
|
|
Unless you can bleed out then you're basically unkillable.
"I raise the death flag. Kronar bleeds to death alongside his party."
I think the point you're missing here is that this rule lets the player choose when his character can die. An irresponsible player can use this to be 'unkillable' but then the problem isn't with the tool but with the person using it.
It means negative con +1. Death +1 hp does not equal 1 hit point.
I had a game where I was using disable device to diffuse some eldrich bomb. I could have died, infact, most likely would have. I would have raised the flag and made a new character. That would have been a pretty kick ass death. Now if this same character got crit hit by mook #5, I might have opted to be unconcious.
It really depends on your approach, I think the people who would be hesitant are the people who want to win, but as TOZ said there can be other penalities for "losing" other than death.
I haven't read the whole link. The only difference I would maybe add is that when one hits "death" and doesn't raise the flag, they are in a "coma". The "Coma" condition can only be cured outside of combat or some such. (Not sure how I would structure the rule, but whatever. Maybe it takes 5 Minutes for the heal to take affect or something.)
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
a player can choose when his character can die...hmmm I'm gonna guess that for 99% of players that means NEVER. The tool itself lends itself to irresponsibility.
If you're playing with an irresponsible player that's your own fault. My experience indicates your percentage is off. Regardless, I don't see the problem with a group that never chooses to have their characters die. I assume it offends you somehow, but I don't share that same outrage.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Perusing the boards indicates that a respectable proportion of gamers think it "ruins their fun" if they can die -- they get really attached to their characters. Then there are people like Houstonderek and myself who general don't want to play if we're not constantly at risk of death. TOZ's "death flag" idea allows the game to accommodate both sets of people simultaneously, which is no mean feat, so I think the tool itself seems like a very good one.
And +a zillion to a simple "don't play with people you don't like."
The back cover will be blank -- seems like you could put a sticker right there and make sure it stands out!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you're gonna take down the 4th wall and make them respawn and be unkillable that takes it to a place I definitely wouldn't want to go for RPGing.
Like I said, I prefer for my PC to be at constant risk of annihilation. That doesn't mean I'm required to declare that an alternate opinion is badwrongfun. And it most certainly doesn't mean I need to start throwing around video-game comparisons, which add nothing to the discussion except to indicate that you're supposedly one of the "cool kids." (P.S. I can't stand video games -- that said, I don't use them as a constant point of comparison for anything I personally don't like.)
Perusing the boards indicates that a respectable proportion of gamers think it "ruins their fun" if they can die -- they get really attached to their characters. Then there are people like Houstonderek and myself who general don't want to play if we're not constantly at risk of death. TOZ's "death flag" idea allows the game to accommodate both sets of people simultaneously, which is no mean feat, so I think the tool itself seems like a very good one.
And +a zillion to a simple "don't play with people you don't like."
Oh you can just simply know your players. You really don't need a special rule for that. Just don't kill characters of players who get really attached to their characters(fudge dice...target somebody else...take prisoners...etc) and let the dice land for those who find like it challenging.
Just don't kill characters of players who get really attached to their characters(fudge dice...target somebody else...take prisoners...etc) and let the dice land for those who find like it challenging.
Eh, that interferes with the "transparency clause" of my GM agreement. In other words, I don't lie to the players, except in-character as an NPC. If I'm going to handle (fictional) Bob's cleric with kid gloves, but play no-holds-barred with Derek's rogue, then I'm for sure going to be clear and up-front that that's what I'm doing. I'm not going to pretend that they're all equal but then turn around and shift all of Bob's attacks onto Derek, or roll in the open for Derek but hide all the dice for Bob, or whatever.
And with something that touches a nerve as much as this does? I'm going to be sure to do them the courtesy of asking them what they prefer, even if I already have a pretty good idea what they'll say.
Death Flag looks neat. I also like the "Raising the Stakes" bit. I posted it for my players, maybe they'll like it and be more encouraged to take cinematic actions on occasion. They come up with some creative shit sometimes but others they forget I have that sort of open policy (I'll come up with a DC for whatever, within reason).
As for not dying at first level, what I find generally helps with that is giving the players 1.5x HD+Con at first level. Meaning instead of 12, a Barbarian gets 18, Fighter gets 15, etc.
Doesn't prevent the random crit oneshot from some things but lets them take a few more normal hits before going down.
Because now your players are immortal gods? Either that or we're in video game mode.
an RPG suspends some disbelief with magic and creatures but stll reflects mostly the same rules and realities we know as people. Things that go up come down, people live and can be killed. If you're gonna take down the 4th wall and make them respawn and be unkillable that takes it to a place I definitely wouldn't want to go for RPGing. At that point I'd name my character Master Chief.
So don't use it.
As to the video games suggestion...I don't where you see I don't play them? I don't now...but for a period in my life when I had no group I played the heck out of the old SSI D&D games and Baldur's Gate.
To very belatedly answer this question, I read two of your posts and apparently jumped to a false conclusion.
Video games now a days are impossible to 'loose'...if you die you go to the last save point and retry. Video games are all about the story. This is som,ething I have heard from my video game playing friends. From OPs issues a video game might be better(and there are multi-player video games out there.
As I said most of what I am saying in that video games have gotten easier and the whole loosing thing is just what I have heard from friend who play alot of video games. They routinly usualy go back to play older games because there is actualy challenges.
The two uses of 'friends who play video games have told me' and the absence of 'I played' made me think that you didn't play. My mistake, and I apologize.
I had something of an attitude changing moment two sessions ago. After some self examination while walking into last session, I decided to share.
My group is currently playing Carrion Crown. We are, to keep it spoiler free, at the dungeon-like environment at the end of book 2. We have no trap finder, though the Ranger (and party melee specialist) is taking disable device after a couple of bad moments in previous sessions.
When we broke our session 3 sessions ago, our GM announced that we were heading straight into a TPK encounter, and would likely die. He told us that it was a magical trap, and that he didn't see a way for us to avoid it.
I walked into that session praying that we all wouldn't die. The week of dread and anticipation was what prompted me to make the original post in this thread, actually. It was a form of tension relief.
By sheer dumb luck, and because my sorcerer just got the fly spell as his only level 3 spell and I'm spamming it at every opportunity because it's one of my character's quirks, we actually avoided the TPK. We encountered the same monsters, but came up on them from behind so the tactical situation was different. Our GM announced that we'd survived the TPK and I sighed a breath of relief.
Then we walked into a magical trap that summoned a +1 APL creature with flight (from wings) and a powerful magical bow. We spent something like an hour and a half in battle and nearly TPK'd. Our party was summoning every ounce of teamwork that we had, or at least we were trying to. The casters were supporting the melee specialist. The gunslinger was hopelessly trapped in a poor tactical situation, and the melee guy was frantically trying to keep the enemy's attention on himself. As players, we were focused and razor sharp. We looked for every advantage that we could get.
The melee guy and the enemy had an epic dual of blows in mid air above a bridge that crossed a chasm. The first one to fall would faint and die, or at least get un-summoned. Weapons clashed. Spells were flinging through the air as fast as they could be cast. They were accompanied by a hail of bullets from the gunslinger. The flying melee guy hit for all he was worth. Huge amounts of damage were being dealt.
In the climactic finish to the battle, the bad guy brutally knocked our beleaguered melee specialist into negative hit points. With a grunt, he slipped into unconsciousness and began to fall. The only reason he wasn't sliced and diced right there was that he fell so fast that the enemy couldn't finish its full attack action.
Our brave melee guy fell at 60 feet per round into a 200 foot chasm that contained a swift moving river that had 4 different waterfalls. It was certain death for him, and it was certain death for us. Our gunslinger was about to fall. Our healer was out of position and had cast all of the range spells she had. Our sorcerer- my character- was frantically diving through the air in a reckless attempt to save the falling Ranger. The monster was about to turn on the heavily injured gunslinger who had no chance of escaping. After quickly dispatching our last fighter type, the winged fiend would turn on the two casters (both of whom were almost out of spells) at its leisure. Things were grim. The beast roared in triumph.
Then the gunslinger attacked, and rolled a 20. A crit! A x4 critical hit, just when we needed it most! The player quietly rolled again... and confirmed! The winged beast was shot through the chest and banished back to its home plane just as it was shouting it's victory cry.
Meanwhile, my sorcerer was frantically chasing after our falling melee specialist. He tried to catch the unconscious warrior, but alas! My character's reflex save was poor, and the beloved ally slipped through his fingers. Again my sorcerer dove down after his unconscious friend, and again watched his compatriot slip futilely through his grasp. A third attempt, and a third failure!
We were so far down the chasm that my own character risked death if he dived again, but the plucky mage grimly continued the plumet. The characters were less than 20 feet above the roaring river; both of them were wet from the spray. A watery death with so close that I could taste it, but my sorcerer finally made his reflex roll and caught the dying ranger with just a few feet to spare!
The scene ended and we broke for the night. As I left, I reflected on the session. Our two primary fighters had almost died. My mage had risked death trying to save one of them. Our party was spread across the battlefield and it seemed as if we were hopelessly outclassed by a winged assassin that just wouldn't go down! Character death seemed certain. Our party survived by the skin of our teeth.
It was Epic! It was exciting! The call was close- the scene was Phenomenal.
It was one of the worst sessions that I've ever had.
When I wasn't bored by 4 hours of constant battle, I was sweating bullets. I was either dreading/anticipating a TPK or feeling frustrated and helpless during one. By the end of the night, I was exhausted and irritated. I didn't feel like I'd accomplished something by surviving- I felt dissatisfied and unhappy.
This isn't the first dungeon crawl I've been through. It's not even the first with this party- we've been through book 1. But it IS the first where we've had so many close calls. Ever since we entered the front of the dungeon area- and set off a creature that alerted guards and turned 4 encounters into 1 nasty one- things have been hairy.
As I came home from that session- and again, this was two sessions ago- I reflected on the opinions being voiced in this thread. By the lights of seemingly half the people responding, my death defying adventure should have been one the highlights of the campaign. I should have felt invigorated and triumphant. Instead, I wanted my character to die just so that it would be over.
And over the next week, that's what echoed through my mind. I just wanted it to be over. Carrion Crown has a fairly interesting story early on, and I really wanted to see what happens in book 3. But I was seriously beginning to wonder if it was worth the next 3 to 4 sessions (as predicted by our GM) of dungeon. If these are the 'epic' adventures that the forum so enjoys, then the forum can KEEP them!
These were my reflections while walking into my most recent session. And I was also thinking about my near complete absence of dread, because sometime over the last week something new had crystallized inside me.
Indifference. I'd begun to stop caring. About my character's life, about the adventure, and to a lesser degree about the group. I realized that the thought of my character dying didn't sadden me anymore, because it meant that I could play something else. It likely meant that we'd TPK and I'd get to play another adventure. I was really looking forward to that, because I was rather sick of the place we were in.
We continued to slog through the death defying encounters. Our survival has mostly been a matter of lucky rolls, slowly improving tactics, and a lot of leniency from our GM. (This I know because he proclaims it. Loudly. Often.) It's only a matter of time before someone dies, if not all of us. All it will take is one bad roll in the wrong moment, and lately there have been a LOT of wrong moments.
And I'm okay with that. Despite the close calls, I had fun. Hard mode no longer scares me. My character is neat and I enjoy him, but if my character dies then at least I can free of this accursed dungeon. “Eh… what the hell. Kill ‘em all or die trying!” And my next character won't have hours of thought and backstory behind her, because I just don't feel like putting that much effort into it anymore.
I suppose this is growth. The story has lost some of its shine, but that just means I don't mind it when the story ends. Shrug. It's just a game.
I just ran that bit this past Sunday.
Trust me, the bullshit dies down some from there. The encounters are still challenging but none of this "Nope I'ma chuck you off the bridge if you fail your Reflex save every time you get damaged" nonsense.
That's not the "amazing epic encounters" everyone talks about, those encounters are the things people have been complaining against for the most part (though I still like my Triple 20 rule): Stuff that's just random "save or you're f$!#ed" things. Only reason my party survived that part was because of a snap judgement that an ability worked a way it probably shouldn't (Maker's Call being able to retrieve people along with the Eidolon), and said retrieved party being able to roll the 16 he needed to Dispel Magic on the winged beast that almost wiped you out.
There are a few BS parts sprinkled throughout the rest of the AP, but more of it is just genuinely challenging rather than save or die.
Also:
At least that tactic got us through the next couple of encounters. A flying, invisible gunslinger carrying a sack that had the entire party's stock of alchemist fires made for one very dead construct guard dog. BOOM.
It's been interesting to see our reaction to all of this as a party, though. Two sessions ago, our party strolled along. "Hum dee dum. Isn't this nice?" A few encounters later, and it's a different story. "Listen at every door! But don't touch the door- it might be trapped! Here mage, we'll all stand to the side. Can you use mage hand to open the door? Okay, now I stealthily enter the room. Wait... do we have any more uses of invisibility? Don't worry about your spells. We'll rest after every encounter. Okay, I stealthily go through the door. Is everyone holding an action?"
It got to the point where the player of the party scout was hamming it up just because I couldn't stop giggling.
Not really an option. Remember, you're on a sort of unofficial time crunch because of the angry mob roaming the country looking for the Beast and because of other stuff you dunno about yet.
Not to mention all the nasties creeping into your bed to give you the long kiss goodnight.
Mystically, from your description of your "epic" session it sounds like you have experienced something like what soldiers have experienced when placed in actual life-or-death situations for hours, sometimes days or weeks. Eventually the person simply can't deal with the stress anymore and their emotional response mechanisms begin to shut down. This was a real problem for the Eighth Air Force over Europe in WW2 when as many as half of their bombers did not make it back to base on hours-long strategic bombing missions in the darkest part of the war.
The human mind reacts to imaginary situations as if they are real sometimes. That's why people watch movies, read stories and ride roller coasters. But if the story or ride you are on is a seemingly endless stream of stress with little hope for success, enjoyment rapidly fades into a sort of resigned fatalism. "Just get this over with already."
That's why most stories have a rhythm to them, with ups and downs and periods of calm reflection, along with a typical sidekick who provides comic relief. The human mind needs that sort of thing to maintain focus and to actually care about the situation. Not having gone through Carrion Crown (yet) and not reading the spoilers, I don't know if the issue is the module or the game session, but from what you describe I would call that a poor sense of pacing and balance by whomever wrote that module. If I were the GM I'd throw in some relaxation and comic relief just to keep the party from having their desire to play eroded by constant stress and worry.
As to the video games suggestion...I don't where you see I don't play them? I don't now...but for a period in my life when I had no group I played the heck out of the old SSI D&D games and Baldur's Gate.
To very belatedly answer this question, I read two of your posts and apparently jumped to a false conclusion.
Video games now a days are impossible to 'loose'...if you die you go to the last save point and retry. Video games are all about the story. This is som,ething I have heard from my video game playing friends. From OPs issues a video game might be better(and there are multi-player video games out there.As I said most of what I am saying in that video games have gotten easier and the whole loosing thing is just what I have heard from friend who play alot of video games. They routinly usualy go back to play older games because there is actualy challenges.The two uses of 'friends who play video games have told me' and the absence of 'I played' made me think that you didn't play. My mistake, and I apologize.
I said in my post I poorly wrote the orginal post. Those two posts kinda were off topic on more modern video gaming...which I don't play...I still though will play older games.
You should try it some time.
You might find that they're not as easy as you might think when made well. Not all challenge has to come from "Welp I died, now I need to re-do an hour's worth of identical playtime to get back to where I was!" (which is fake difficulty anyway).
And many easy games are still worth playing because their stories are good to experience.
And if you want a more modern game with a more old school-ish RPG feel, play Dragon Age: Origins. Also made by Bioware. One of the best games ever made IMO.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Those rules as written make it so you won't die...
Which is not making the characters immortal, not adding respawns, and does not mean the characters are unkillable. As long as you continue to make factually erroneous statements I will continue to correct you.
My example would be John McClain. Does the fact that he never died in Die Hard mean he is immortal? No, it does not.
|
|
Ah. You think the character has this power. He does not. It is the player that has this power. No one within the game world is aware of the death flag. As far as they are concerned, every near death experience is harrowing and frightful, and only luck or divine protection can explain their survival. But they never know when that luck will turn, or the favor be withdrawn.