You could use that immediate action (emergency force sphere) as a reaction to being attacked (provided you're not flat footed). However, you must decide to use it before the results of the attack are known. That is, you couldn't decide that you'd use it only if you actually get hit or if you get critted, for example.
|
Beyond the thought that Emergency Force Sphere should be banned, immediate actions operate much like a readied action (if X happens then Y occurs) but without having to state a precondition (unless the spell requires one). Actions that can be readied include move, standard, and swift, but not immediate since they function as a readied action in response to a situation. Most (if not all) spells that are immediate casts generally state a precursor event, aka the event it is readied against.
For example, the Bard spell Saving Finale (APG, 1st level) allows a bard to end his song as an immediate spellcast to allow one creature affected by the song to reroll not only a saving throw but a failed saving throw. This spell is more detailed on how the immediate action should take place, and I would use it as guidance.
Hence, the Sphere was written allows itself to be used reactively to an attack (assuming one is not flat-footed). Personally I'd ban it because an instantaneous invulnerable shell is just too strong for a 4th level spell. But if in play, I'd have to allow players who can react to attacks to cast it in response to an event (being attacked), and thereby interrupt the effect of that event, much like Saving Finale would interrupt the effect of a failed save by preventing the effect from setting in (ignoring the versimilitude of how one player would know a creature in range has actually failed a save...).
Agree with Slim that it could not be used after being hit because it couldn't "interrupt" the damage then.
|
I think EFS was written with collapsing ceilings and avalanches in mind, and somehow the writer hadn't really worked out how it would work in combat.
While I would much rather ban the spell, if I did allow the spell, I'd say you can use EFS when an enemy is about to attack you (d20 in hand) but before the roll is made.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
...immediate actions operate much like a readied action (if X happens then Y occurs) but without having to state a precondition (unless the spell requires one).
Are we sure about this?
I never see any general rules about immediate actions getting to interrupt other actions.
(They cannot be readied actions, but that is because readied actions change your place in the initiative order. That fails to prove they work as readied actions by default.)
Cases such as Paladin's Sacrifice are possibly examples of "specific rules trump general rules" rather than guidelines for how all immediate actions function.
Thus I see no reason the rules allow using Emergency Force Sphere to interrupt an attack.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That spell is awful and I have a vested interest in hearing the conclusions from this thread.
As far as I know, there's no official ruling about how actions that take place at the same time resolve. I let the spell work against attacks, but that just seemed like a common sense adjudication to me. If you can't use it against attacks, why can you use it against a ceiling collapse? Also, even though there's no general rule about getting to interrupt other actions, the general rules also do not restrict when they can be used:
an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.
Emphasis mine. So there's no limitation on when you can use them in the rules. My guess is that whoever wrote EFS forgot to define the parameters under which it can be used, but we'll never know that unless a dev comes in to clarify. I'm just gonna call the spell OP for now.
I'm just gonna call the spell OP for now.
The spell is a great panic button, but OP? As someone else said, it is a 4th level spell and it essentially wastes your next turn as you are now trapped inside of a sphere.
EDIT: I was going to say a Teleportation sub-school Wizard with it would be pretty awesome until I remembered that he wouldn't be able to use his swift action teleport to escape it the round after casting because he already used his swift for that round by casting EFS.
As xn0o0cl3 points out, an immediate action is equivalent to a swift action save that it can occur at any time. I'd have no problem with allowing it to be used in reaction to an attack; in fact, the last line of its description seems to indicate just that ("...though it is also handy in dealing with ambushes").
Well, the only encounter I've had with it is in a module from level 12-15, so the wizard had plenty to throw around. At that level of play it more or less allowed the wizard to enter melee with impunity.
I'm still thinking that the Wizard taking himself out of the fight for a round is penalty enough for having that level of protection, but I've never seen it in actual play.
Well, the only encounter I've had with it is in a module from level 12-15, so the wizard had plenty to throw around. At that level of play it more or less allowed the wizard to enter melee with impunity.
How'd he do anything? Since it's based off Wall of Force, and Wall of Force blocks line of effect for spells (it's called out in WoF), then sure he could enter melee - and just stand there, doing nothing.
Design Manager
|
That spell is awful and I have a vested interest in hearing the conclusions from this thread.
As far as I know, there's no official ruling about how actions that take place at the same time resolve. I let the spell work against attacks, but that just seemed like a common sense adjudication to me. If you can't use it against attacks, why can you use it against a ceiling collapse? Also, even though there's no general rule about getting to interrupt other actions, the general rules also do not restrict when they can be used:
an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.Emphasis mine. So there's no limitation on when you can use them in the rules. My guess is that whoever wrote EFS forgot to define the parameters under which it can be used, but we'll never know that unless a dev comes in to clarify. I'm just gonna call the spell OP for now.
That was my understanding of immediate actions as well: any time means any time including in the middle of someone else's action.
The general rule is that it is a standard action to dismiss a spell. In regards to your first statement, could you give me some examples of spells your Wizard used in conjunction with EFS? Line of effect isn't something I normally paid attention to as its rare for me to be in the position of being able to see something =/= being able to attack it.
There's plenty of spells that don't need line of effect.
Also, where does it say it takes a standard action to lower the wall? Is that just from the general magic rules in the CRB?
Unless the spell specifically says otherwise, all spells need line of effect, per the general magic rules.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.
But actually, Wall of Force (and by extension Emergency Force Sphere) goes one step further, in that the text of WoF actually says it blocks all spells save teleportation and similar effects.
Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through a wall of force in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually circumvent the wall by going around it, through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.
The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10-foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.
As to dismissing a spell, it's in the combat rules.
So yeah, a Wizard could walk into the midst of melee combat and cast EFS - but it greatly limits what he can do (effectively to teleporting out of the sphere, using gaze attacks, or [possibly] using non-spell abilities, although to be honest my assumption is that supernatural and spell-like abilities would be blocked as well).
|
|
Reading wall of force again, it does state explicitly that spells cannot pass through in either direction. However, I'd always taken that to mean any spell that actually requires something to pass through the wall though, like rays and such. If the wall is invisible, why wouldn't say, a pit spell, be able to be conjured on the other side?
Summons, pits, mind affects, anything that doesn't require shooting your spell through an object.
Those still require LoE to the target. To re-quote: "You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect." So things like Charm Person still require line of effect to the target you want to charm. If you wanted to charm a person who is on the other side of a glass window, you have to either move to an open doorway or bust out a pane of glass. Same with Create Pit - you need line of effect to the area where you wish to create the pit.
That's standard game mechanics, separate from Wall of Force, actually. LoE does not apply only to spells that have apparent travel paths from caster to target (like Fireball and Magic Missile) or for spells that require an attack roll (like Scorching Ray); it applies to all spells unless the spell explicitly states otherwise.
[edit]
There are a few cases where the spells can be assumed to function without line of effect but don't explicitly spell it out. For example, divination (scrying) spells don't usually mention requiring LoE (primarily because the general school description calls out an alternative - that lead sheeting can block such spells).
|
|
I always took the line about visibility to mean that the solid barrier would likewise not impede a spell's casting unless it obscured visibility, so an invisible barrier wouldn't impede a spell that wasn't actually moving something through the barrier. HOWEVER, you learn something new every day. Now we'll see how our group takes the rules change...
Personally, I think a lot of people house rule it. The morally-questionable Bard who is eavesdropping outside the window and decides to loosen up the tongue of the person on whom he's spying seems like a pretty common fantasy trope; when he has to knock out a pane of glass first it makes that far more difficult to accomplish.
But it does serve its balance purposes. For instance, it makes Emergency Force Sphere a very useful spell, but only for an "Oh $&*@" moment, not for the purposes of letting the Wizard set up a transparent bunker from where he can sling his Fireballs.
Greetings all
I realise this is extreme thread necromancy but I have a question pertaining to immediate actions.
The spell vengeful comet states that you can fire a comet at a person that targets you with a spell.
This comet shot being an immediate action I was wondering if it would actually force a concentration check vs damage as he casts the spell.
Specifically, targeting someone with a spell and casting the spell are not the same thing so it could be feasible to say that it does but there's no clear ruling.
What does the board think.
|
@AlastarOG Generally No. If you read Vengeful Comets, it says "As an immediate action whenever you are affected by a spell cast by another creature".
If you have already been affected by the spell, the spell has already been cast and there is nothing to interrupt. The only instance where a concentration check would be needed by the opponent caster is if the spell required concentration to maintain beyond the initial casting.
I would not call the spell overpowered. It is always centered on the caster and also prevents the caster and allies in the sphere from attacking while the spell is up. It is the same level as a wall of bone. The wall of bone has less defense but can be cast at range and has a greater duration. The wall of bones can also attack creatures.
Basically, it can halt combat on both sides for a short duration.
Stranger, this necro brought to you by spam.