I did scan through threads on sunder but did not come across this. Basicially I'm building a graveknight samurai with improved sunder and one of his annoying tricks will be to sunder weapons before he goes in for the kill. My question is does a cavalier's challenge apply to damage on sunder or only direct physical attacks against the target? I feel it might be the latter but was wondering if I missed anything.
On a related topic from my reading it sounds like the official ruling is you can sunder in a charge (and I would assume spirited charge would double that damage) just can't use vital strike.
It doesn't read like Sunder would be subject to the benefits of a Cavalier's Challenge.
Sunder is an attack action in place of a melee attack. It is not a melee attack. Challenge only adds to their melee attack damage.
Also, Challenge specifically says they challenge a foe, while Sunder specifically says it is against an item held or worn by an opponent. This pretty much rules out the possibility of issuing a Challenge to your foe's katana.
Caution on Sunder - Your teammates will not be happy if you sunder those awesome weapons they would have gotten...
Quotes from the PRD:
Challenge (Ex): Once per day, a cavalier can challenge a foe to combat. As a swift action, the cavalier chooses one target within sight to challenge. The cavalier's melee attacks deal extra damage whenever the attacks are made against the target of his challenge. This extra damage is equal to the cavalier's level. The cavalier can use this ability once per day at 1st level, plus one additional time per day for every three levels beyond 1st, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.
Challenging a foe requires much of the cavalier's concentration. The cavalier takes a –2 penalty to his Armor Class, except against attacks made by the target of his challenge.
The challenge remains in effect until the target is dead or unconscious or until the combat ends. Each cavalier's challenge also includes another effect which is listed in the section describing the cavalier's order.
Sunder
You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally. Damage that exceeds the object's Hardness is subtracted from its hit points. If an object has equal to or less than half its total hit points remaining, it gains the broken condition (see Conditions). If the damage you deal would reduce the object to less than 0 hit points, you can choose to destroy it. If you do not choose to destroy it, the object is left with only 1 hit point and the broken condition.
Yep that was my feeling that the challenge wouldn't apply to sunder and as the graveknight samurai in question is a villain the party will be facing soon they'll be glad too.
does a cavalier's challenge apply to damage on sunder or only direct physical attacks against the target?
a sunder IS targetting the wearer, it just has a different effect from normal, but this effect is still damage that challenge can boost. 100% legit usage.
because you ARE targetting the wearer, any of their non-armor/nat.armor defensive boosts apply vs. the sunder, e.g. deflection bonus, mirror image.vital strike indeed only applies when using the standard action named 'attack', which is different from the charge action (whether full-round or a standard action partial charge). i have no idea why that still isn't in the official FAQ, it was probably one of the first questions that jason bulmahn answered in the forums after PRPG was published.
I don't agree Quandary. This is the whole attack action vs. Melee attack question when determining Challnege bonus to Sunder. Challenge specifically states a melee attack while Sunder specifically says it is an attack action...not a melee attack.
Sunder is also specifically targeting an item...not the bearer/wearer.
you're still targetting the wearer, that's why their CMD is used, using their BAB and STR and bonuses applying to their person.
targetting the item itself only happens when it is unattended. if it's unattended, then it isn't going to benefit from any character's buff spells giving them deflection bonus to AC/CMD, mirror image, etc. if you are targetting the item itself, you are targetting the item AC, not the wearer's CMD which is targetting the wearer (even if the sunder is a special attack).
if somebody has a defensive ability that says when they are attacked (something bad happens to the attacker, or something good happens to them), that ability is triggered by a sunder, because even though their own HPs are not being removed (rather, the item's HPs are being removed), they are still the target of the attack... likewise, they can be the target of attacks which don't do normal HP damage at all. on a rules basis, the wearer is the target of the attack, even if it intuitively 'feels' weird.
a (melee) attack action is a melee attack, all melee attacks are not attack actions.
the CMB rules specifically describe them as attack rolls.
how are melee attacks defined? actually they are (erroneously) defined under the attack action, which directly applies to sunder, if we were inclined to interpret the location of that info strictly (which means that non-attack actions can't crit, can't use rules for ranged weapons, etc: not likely)
Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.
Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).
What about a Sunder conflicts with that definition? Nothing.
My search-fu is weak at the moment, but I need to try to find the dev comments on attack action vs. melee attack...it was somewhere in one of the previous Sunder threads...the commentary I remember from it was that they were not the same type of thing.
But I still see that Challenge specifically calls that you are targeting a foe and the melee attacks gain extra damage when made against the target of the challenge...not something the target is wearing or holding.
Caution on Sunder - Your teammates will not be happy if you sunder those awesome weapons they would have gotten...
Sunder
You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally. Damage that exceeds the object's Hardness is subtracted from its hit points. If an object has equal to or less than half its total hit points remaining, it gains the broken condition (see Conditions). If the damage you deal would reduce the object to less than 0 hit points, you can choose to destroy it. If you do not choose to destroy it, the object is left with only 1 hit point and the broken condition.
As long as it is only broken it can be fixed. Depending on the size (weight) and CL of the object even with the mending cantrip. Giving the opponent's weapon the broken condition might be enough for an easy win.
Fair enough, Umbranus, but getting a broken weapon until you have time to get back to town or do the repairs yourself if you were forward thinking enough to bring the supplies is a groan from lots of people. :)