A small monk change that could have a big impact

[Icyshadow]

Big Lemon wrote:

So now Wisdom covers:

-AC
-Damage
-Attack Rolls
-Will Saves
-Save DCs (qinggong monk)

Wisdom now covers almost everything important for the class, aside from hitpoints. This is too significant.

So a Monk has to stay MAD or else it becomes too powerful?

Yeah, with the Wizards and other clearly more powerful options around, I can see how big of a problem that can be /sarcasm

[Arkady Zelenka]

@Rainzax
I'm liking those options, I'm borrowing your ideas, especially Immovability. I'd like to see these fleshed out a bit more, I think you're on to something.

[Dabbler]

Icyshadow wrote:

So a Monk has to stay MAD or else it becomes too powerful?

No, I think we'd all like to see MAD reduced - but reduced to the level of a paladin or ranger, not the level of a wizard or cleric. Taking Wisdom off damage is enough to keep strength relevant and not invalidate strength-monk builds.

If the monk wants wis-to-damage, they can go for the guided weapon property later, just as a dex-focused monk can go for the agile weapon property.

[+5 Toaster]

Dabbler wrote:

Icyshadow wrote:

So a Monk has to stay MAD or else it becomes too powerful?

No, I think we'd all like to see MAD reduced - but reduced to the level of a paladin or ranger, not the level of a wizard or cleric. Taking Wisdom off damage is enough to keep strength relevant and not invalidate strength-monk builds.

If the monk wants wis-to-damage, they can go for the guided weapon property later, just as a dex-focused monk can go for the agile weapon property.

just want to remind everybody, that guided is a 3.5 property, and not all gms will allow it based on that alone.

[TGMaxMaxer]

But no matter how you do it, you need to tie hit and damage to the same stat IMO... or you didn't really reduce the MAD at all.

I like the idea of the Monastic Orders similar to the cavalier. Then you can tie those in, 1st level, hit with wis/dex. 3rd level, damage with the same stat.

Something for Str... Str for stunning fist at 1st. 3rd to make them better maneuver wise, I'd say double Str for CMB for the str style.

[Big Lemon]

Icyshadow wrote:

Big Lemon wrote:

So now Wisdom covers:

-AC
-Damage
-Attack Rolls
-Will Saves
-Save DCs (qinggong monk)

Wisdom now covers almost everything important for the class, aside from hitpoints. This is too significant.

So a Monk has to stay MAD or else it becomes too powerful?

Yeah, with the Wizards and other clearly more powerful options around, I can see how big of a problem that can be /sarcasm

So the monk has to be more SAD than all of the other martial classes or he can't be improved at all?

Should the class get changes to help him compete at higher levels? Yes. Should the improvements make him strictly more powerful than other martial classes? No. The change listed in the OP would do exactly that.

[Atarlost]

I think the monk needs to remain MAD for the class to support all three major archetypes that it needs to support: The strength based wrestler, the evasive dex based martial artist, and the wisdom based ki master.

You can't drop below 3 way MAD without invalidating at least one. You can't drop to SAD without invalidating two.

I think the monk needs to go in the opposite direction. Overload all the stats.

Both Dex and Wis to initiative. Either Str or Wis for stunning fist/quivering palm DC. Free weapon finesse and the option of wis to hit on unarmed strikes and finessable monk weapons. A broader quingong style ki system with a new power every level once they get the pool (which is still fewer than a ranger or paladin can have spells prepared ignoring those from their wisdom bonus). Level based DR/hardness penetration. d12 hit die. Stunning fist/quivering palm can target either fort or will. Ki pool being something quadratic like wisdom mod plus one multiplied by level/4. Stuff like that.

The big hit die lets the monk skimp on constitution. That alone reduces him to 3 way MAD, same as a TWF fighter or a switch hitter. The str substitute for stunning fist/quivering palm DC allows you to get by with only moderate wisdom. The DR penetration and free weapon finesse allow a low strength and the wis to hit allows a moderate dex for the wisdom build. Wis to init allows a moderate dex, or even both a moderate dex and wis monk to have viable initiative for a lockdown monk to not get locked down himself.

This way there are different builds. You can go strength heavy with dexterity and wisdom as secondary stats. You would lag a bit on AC, but with the d12 hit die that wouldn't be the end of the world. This build would play a lot like a barbarian, though not quite as offensive.

You can go dex heavy with strength and wisdom as secondaries and focus on maneuvers (trip and disarm for free or grapple with agile maneuvers). Not the greatest in the long run, but with the DR penetration you wouldn't be a joke at high level.

You can go wisdom heavy with dex secondary and focus on ki casting and stunning fist. With my suggested ki progression you would eventually get decent ki endurance.

A ridiculously high point build will get to double up on initiative and still be slower than a diviner or the current Sohei. And if ki options remain in line with ranger/paladin casting won't have much good to do with that initiative compared to a diviner. Nothing else actually doubles up a stat except AC, which already did.

[Dabbler]

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

But no matter how you do it, you need to tie hit and damage to the same stat IMO... or you didn't really reduce the MAD at all.

No you don't, and yes you can.

You do not need to tie in hitting and damaging to the same stat - there is a lot of precedent in feats that other classes take a great deal of the time. Weapon Finesse is taken a lot, and it does not confer dex-to-damage. Yet it is taken so it must confer an advantage.

Yes it does reduce MAD, not by reducing any need for strength but by instead reducing the need to max out strength. You need to max out your hitting stat, but you can afford to drop a point or so in damage. The formula to follow is that +1 to hit is worth +2 to damage.

[Dustyboy]

+5 Toaster wrote:

Dabbler wrote:

Icyshadow wrote:

So a Monk has to stay MAD or else it becomes too powerful?

No, I think we'd all like to see MAD reduced - but reduced to the level of a paladin or ranger, not the level of a wizard or cleric. Taking Wisdom off damage is enough to keep strength relevant and not invalidate strength-monk builds.

If the monk wants wis-to-damage, they can go for the guided weapon property later, just as a dex-focused monk can go for the agile weapon property.

just want to remind everybody, that guided is a 3.5 property, and not all gms will allow it based on that alone.

it's on d20pfsrd, it's actually from paizo

[kyrt-ryder]

So is 3E Dragon Magazine, but you don't see most DMs allowing that (regrettably.)

[w01fe01]

ok regardless of peoples bickering the one thing that is NEEDED is to reduce how MAD a monk is. There is also a way to further slightly reduce but not nullify te need for strength. and its a idea i saw dabbler post in another thread.

basically yo keep the wis to +hit mechanics but you give monk a niche. allowing there hits to reduce/bypas DR.

this means a monk might not have massive +damage, but they also wont need it, as more of there damage will bypass DR and deal HP damage to the enemy.

this imo is a GREAT idea and sorry if i messed it up at all dabbler.

[wintersrage]

I have a quick question, if i was going to replace strength for carrying capacity what stat best fits the mind over matter aspect of the monk build i am making.

[Dabbler]

w01fe01 wrote:

ok regardless of peoples bickering the one thing that is NEEDED is to reduce how MAD a monk is. There is also a way to further slightly reduce but not nullify te need for strength. and its a idea i saw dabbler post in another thread.

basically yo keep the wis to +hit mechanics but you give monk a niche. allowing there hits to reduce/bypas DR.

this means a monk might not have massive +damage, but they also wont need it, as more of there damage will bypass DR and deal HP damage to the enemy.

this imo is a GREAT idea and sorry if i messed it up at all dabbler.

Not at all!

What I suggested was in essence this:

1) Wisdom bonus used to hit with unarmed strikes and monk weapons instead of strength, if the player prefers, as well as for CMB.

2) A means of bypassing DR. My preferred method is to reduce DR of any type by monk level, so a 5th level monk encoutnering DR 5/silver effectively ignores it, but still has problems with DR 10/good which for his attacks is reduced to DR 5/good. So it doesn't matter what the DR is, it's all reduced by the same amount. Another option to to have this as a ki-power that bypasses any and all DR by spending ki, but I think existing ki is overloaded as it is. The old ki-strike bypasses are removed.

3) I also suggested ki-strike instead provide an enhancement bonus to hit with unarmed strike. +1 at 4th, +2 at 7th, +3 at 10th, +4 at 13th, and +5 at 16th levels. This alleviates the demand for the AoMF without making it redundant, as properties from the AoMF will still stack with the hitting enhancement. However, it does not enhance damage so it is 'incomplete' in that respect. This maintains the monk's position as hitting often, always damaging, but not being a mega-damage dealer.

[Arkady Zelenka]

@Rainzax
Your Maneuver Training suggestion worked like a charm, adding DEX and STR to CMB didn't eff anything up, hell it made one of the battles tonight more exciting. The monk in the party found himself a rival after he was bested in a non-lethal challenge by my NPC.