I like magic, but 9lvls of spells is a bit too much. The trick is building full caster classes for arcane and divine magic, keeping the flavor and versatility, but beefing up the class mechanics to account for the hit to power levels as compared to the other classes.
Honestly, I don't think much tweaking is required as the last 3 spell lvls skyrocket full casters in terms of power.
Any thoughts or suggestions... Other than playing a bard, inquisitor, or magus?
One tweak for sure across the board for all spell casters would be that saving throw = 10+ 1/2 class level + casting ability mod. It will make lower lvl spells more powerful, but it will also insure that DCs don't ever become capped too soon for any class.
Also, wiz and cleric progressions would slow down to match spontaneous casters and some prestige classes would lose some power, MT would be a b*tch as well, but it would all fit properly.
Full arcane classes will cast of the magus progression +1/ spell lvl, and full divine casters will use the inquisitor progression +1/ spell lvl.
That approach certainly lessens the availability of high level magic. You could take a different approach though. Might not suit your needs, but one way to lessen magic is to change spells per day.
For example, consider the following hypothetical houserules:
Remove the Cantrips/Orisons class feature. 0-level spells slots are consumed when used, just like all other slots.
Except for zero-level spells, every spell level has a single spell per day. Whenever your class level would give you another spell slot other than your first for a spell level, instead gain another 0-level slot.
Bonus spells due to high ability scores are not effected by these rules, so very talented individuals may cast more spells each day.
Maybe ban or up the price of Pearls of Power.
It certainly makes casters more item dependent. Scrolls, wands, and pearls all become more important, just as weapons, armour, ammunition, and potions are important to the martial classes.
Anyway, you could find some middle ground between your 'no high level spells' idea and my 'few spells per day' idea. Just trying to introduce more ideas for you.
The at will 0 lvl spells was one of my favorite changes though. I know I want spells capped at 6, I just need to figure out if I need to add something ,and what if any, to full casters.
This is all for a home brew house rule codex I am putting together that modifies races, classes, and feats a bit.
So you less want to collect more ideas, but want advice about your current ideas?
Alright, so given the rules you have suggested I think the current, non-full casters got a pure buff. Unless I misunderstood, Bards, Paladins, Magi, etc, lost nothing, but their spell saves are harder.
Not sure if you intended that or not, but be aware that it does seem to be a consequence of your houserule.
I'm not sure I understand the other rules change you are suggesting.
What does "+1/ spell lvl" mean?
Do they have one more spell per day for each spell level, or get access to higher level spells earlier?
Anyway, you said you wanted ideas to buff full-casters to cancel out the nerf you are throwing them. Maybe:
Full casters can skip some expensive foci/components.
Full casters get cheaper metamagic (effectively giving higher level spells through metamagic).
Maybe give them a single level 7 spell slot once a week at their capstone.
So I haven't really put a lot of thought in to this before and am just spitballing ideas so take all these suggestions/ thoughts with a grain of salt:
A. I think this would hit some classes much harder than others.
The Druid would still have a medium BAB, an animal companion, wild shape +various other class abilities. If you didn't change anything else but the spells the class would be nerfed but probably still be worth playing.
Clerics would be on the fence for me. They would have medium BAB armored casting, domain powers and channeling still but the inquisitor has almost all that along with several other features. The cleric spell list is better but not enough to make it worth playing. I'd probably up the skill ranks to at least 4/level, increase channeling and give back heavy armor and probably a combat feat or 3.
Witches have Hexes which are rather nice, giving extra hexes and or bonuses to save DCs would probably be the way to go here.
Sorcerers/wizards would be pretty weakened with this. Given that the bard and magus can both cast 6th level spells, have a better BAB more class abilities and better saves/HP I think you'd have to do something pretty big to even out this class. The number of daily castings would need to increase so that they could stay relevant at higher levels. Metamagic would be far less useful if they no longer have higher level slots to use.
Sorcerer I would increase the spells known and the spells per day and probably increase the bloodline powers.
Wizards I'd increase the spells per day and either increase their ability to use metamagic or crafting so that it became more of a defining class feature. Maybe make them in to something more like the artificer class from ebberon or give them the ability to add metamagic on the fly by passing a spellcraft DC.
B. Another option would be keep levels 7-9 but make them more risky to cast. Give them a spell failure chance like 30% for 7th 40% for 8th and 50% for 9th. This would still let players who like high powered spells cast them but would severely limit the usefulness of higher level magic.
Great suggestions, I think we are on the same page.
1) there are no 2 skill point/ lvl classes (save NPC classes), everyone starts at a min of 4/ lvl.
2) it is an extra spell slot / spell lvl for prepared, and another +1 for spontaneous (thanks Wally)
3) yes, everyone's spells will hit harder, it's not low magic, it's lessened magic.
4) good call on the cleric prof. Maybe hvy armor and weapon training with dirties favored weap (too much?). Still need to give something to Druids and oracles ?
5) LOVE the meta magic idea. Spellcraft DC (?) = 20 + spell lvl? Or concentration check maybe?
6) maybe light armor for arcane casters (too sac religious?)
7) summon spells are 1 lvl higher... Summon monster/ natures ally 1 is actually 2 and so on till summon 6 is actually summon 7. A little stron at lvl 1, but not as strong at highest lvls.
That would be easier, but the full arcane/ divine spell lists and versatility are something I want to preserve. I still want all the classes, just want to lvl the playing field.
Probly, but it gives my players (and villains) more options to do it this way.
Honestly, I think the extra spell slots/ lvl make up the power difference. Especially in conjunction with an updated meta magic system... And the hvy armor for clerics.
Great suggestions, I think we are on the same page.
1) there are no 2 skill point/ lvl classes (save NPC classes), everyone starts at a min of 4/ lvl.
2) it is an extra spell slot / spell lvl for prepared, and another +1 for spontaneous (thanks Wally)
3) yes, everyone's spells will hit harder, it's not low magic, it's lessened magic.
4) good call on the cleric prof. Maybe hvy armor and weapon training with dirties favored weap (too much?). Still need to give something to Druids and oracles ?
5) LOVE the meta magic idea. Spellcraft DC (?) = 20 + spell lvl? Or concentration check maybe?
6) maybe light armor for arcane casters (too sac religious?)
7) summon spells are 1 lvl higher... Summon monster/ natures ally 1 is actually 2 and so on till summon 6 is actually summon 7. A little stron at lvl 1, but not as strong at highest lvls.
2) I'd probably make it 2 extra slots per level. By losing 7-9 a wizard is losing 12 spells per day, they need something to fill those actions. either more lower level spells or better school powers.
4)I thought about the weapon training with a favored weapon but it struck me as too similar to the inquisitor's judgement ability. I think flavor wise you'd be better served buffing domain powers for clerics.
5) I think you'd have to do some playtesting but I think you'd want it to scale more. I'd say DC= 15+ 2x modified spell level.
6) most defensive spells are lower level. I wouldn't give armor. It also just ruins the feel of the class.
7) If you can still trade down for more monsters off the lower list than that makes the spells extremely powerful. especially with augment/superior summoning. If you want to buff them maybe do what the druid shamans do for summoning. Make it a standard action if the summon appears in an adjacent square
Before you get too worried about the saves being too high, one of my other changes is that bravery for fighters is a flat will bonus, and the trap sense bonus for rogues and barbies goes to all saves kinda like divine grace for paladins.
@ Wally:
2) they are getting +2 relative to the original class. Prepared casters ends up with 6 slots/ spell lv instead of 4, and spontaneous get 8.
4) agreed, any suggestions?
5) there wouldn't be any actuall spell lvl modding this way. Do you mean what it would have modified? Like empower (+2) would be DC 20+ spell lvl x2?
6) consider it cut.
7) the trade down seems right, but the power of it starts to wane and then fall off completely by mid to upper lvls. It's kind of a way to compensate for delayed access to higher spell lvls.
Also thinking of needing rangers and pallets to 3 spell lvls, but that may be too much right now.
The shift in power for full casters takes away from the lopsided ness that it has now. A first lvl caster has twice the amount of spells at the beginning, and tapers off later when the regular class starts getting brokenly powerful.
^That would bother me, were I to play in that campaign. (But it is indeed your campaign so your call Byrd.)
The ranger/ pally thing? Yeah, it's too much. I am making alot of radical changes as is.
RACES:
Elves- can choose to receive a bonus to Wis instead of Int
Gnomes- can choose to receive a bonus to Int instead of Cha
Halflings- speed is 30ft
CLASSES:
HP- three tiers of hp, meaning barbarians lose d12 for d10. PCs and bosses (and sub-bosses) get max hp/level for favored class and PrCs. No extra skill option for favored class, racial favored class options only.
Skills- three tiers here as well.
Barbarian: 6
Bard: 8
Cleric: 4
Druid: 4
Fighter: 4
Monk: 6
Paladin: 4
Ranger: 6
Rogue: 8
Sorcerer: 6
Wizard: 4
FEATS:
Weapon Finesse- all creatures are considered to be able to fight with their higher str or dex. The weapon finesse feat may be taken and applied to a weapon that is not usually finessable. Min Str req: 13.
Weapon focus/ specialization- applies to weapon groups
That's all I have for now. As far as balance, I don't mind a slight increase or decrease in power, I just don't want to totally break or nerf any one race/class.
As it stands, I am allowing racial tweaks on a strict case by case basis.
Before you get too worried about the saves being too high, one of my other changes is that bravery for fighters is a flat will bonus, and the trap sense bonus for rogues and barbies goes to all saves kinda like divine grace for paladins.
@ Wally:
2) they are getting +2 relative to the original class. Prepared casters ends up with 6 slots/ spell lv instead of 4, and spontaneous get 8.
4) agreed, any suggestions?
5) there wouldn't be any actuall spell lvl modding this way. Do you mean what it would have modified? Like empower (+2) would be DC 20+ spell lvl x2?
6) consider it cut.
7) the trade down seems right, but the power of it starts to wane and then fall off completely by mid to upper lvls. It's kind of a way to compensate for delayed access to higher spell lvls.
2)How are you spreading out the spells? If you're keeping the same progression and just lopping off the last 3 levels any player would multiclass once they hit 12th level or so. However if you spread it out too far so that they are not getting level appropriate spells at early levels they are going to be far weaker than they should be.
4) Clerics are hard since each god is so different. If the players were playing a cleric of gorum I might give them a bonus to damage but if they were playing a cleric of erastil maybe halve range increments with a bow. Maybe the easiest thing would be to go through each god and choose a bonus feat that is flavorful (and useful) and grant that. or maybe make it a list of feats (5-6)per god and you can choose one at 1st one at 8th one at 15th etc... The list would be tailored to each god so they would all have flavor but it still gives the player the freedom to make whatever character they want.
5) If I were to cast a "Rime" snowball the spell would have a modified level of 2 for purposes of the DC. 1 for the spell level and 1 for the metamagic addition. It would still only use the 1st lvl slot. As far as the DC goes you'll have to decide how difficult you want it to be and go from there, if it's too easy than every spell will be modified with metamagic If it's too hard it's not worth using the ability. A wizard with an 18 int, skill focus and max ranks would have a modifier of:
4 (int)+ 3 (class skill)+ 1 (rank)+ 3 (skill focus)= 11 at first level.
using 15+ 2x mod spell level a 1 level adjusted first level spell would have a DC of 19. So a dedicated player would add metamagic 60% of the time. That's pretty powerful. At 20+spell level it'd be about 45% and at 20+ 2x spell level 35%
At 10th level you'd expect
6(INT boosted)+10 (ranks)+6 (skill focus)+3(class skill)=25
lets say the wizard wants to cast a quickened first level spell
15+ 2x spell level =25 auto success
20+spell level =25 auto success
20+2x spell level=30 75% success
That's a huge power boost at those levels. I'm rethinking that this should be something other than a skill check. That or there needs to be a penalty for failing it and it needs to be rather difficult. Maybe do something like a fortitude check since it's taxing or a will save since it's mentally taxing.
7) a human wizard could grab augment summoning and superior summoning by 3rd level. They also get 2nd level spells at that level. That means they would get up to 4 (1d3+1) wolves off one spell slot. That will finish most level appropriate encounters pretty quick. the power would wane at higher levels but you wouldn't notice it til probably level 15-16. 15 levels of stonger than normal vs 5 levels (that you rarely reach) of lower than normal seems like a bad trade off
The progression slows to match the magus including spells/ level +1giving a prepared caster 6 0-6th lvl spells at lvl 20. Spontaneous casters get 8. Slower spell lvl progression, but more spells/ lvl. I think that should clear up 7) as well. Full casters and "1/2" casters have the same progression, but full casters get more spell slots and full access to the spell lists up to 6th lvl spells.
Maybe meta magic takes up extra slots of the same lvl.
So maybe three feats and hvy armor for the cleric, I think the Druids will live, and I need something for the oracles.
Witches are fine as is, but still think wiz and sorc needs a bump.
Bump
1) I think that you would have to scrap the summoner, with access to high level spells at different levels it will make the wizard/sorcerer look bad. Otherwise revising the spell list dramatically is also an option.
2) You could give sorcerer/wizard access to an arcane pool much like the magus used to fuel metamagic.
* Arcane Pool of 1/2 level + casting modifier, or full level + casting modifier if you want to use the same mechanic for class abilities like bloodline or school powers.
* Wizards prepare metamagic spells as usual, sorcerers can add them on the fly with increased casting time.
* instead of increasing spell level you burn Arcane Points, 1 level increase is 1 Arcane Point
* limit the number of Arcane Points you can spend on one spell by level, up to 1 per 3 levels I'd suggest but probably not further than 6 levels (allowing for quickened and empowered spells), starting from level 2 :
lvl 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17
That would be easier, but the full arcane/ divine spell lists and versatility are something I want to preserve. I still want all the classes, just want to lvl the playing field.
If you are going to so drastically reduce the number of spell slots primary casters get per day, I'd recommend looking at giving them other things to do. Perhaps giving them ugraded versions of the 1st level abilties most bloodlines, specializations and domains give. Maybe also giving oracles and witches additional mysteries and hexes. I mean I totally get that you dont want a wizard to spout off several 8th level spells in a day, but he shouldnt have to often resort to a near useless action like firing a crossbow. That was an intentional change in pathfinder and it was a good one. So if you are going to limit spell slots, give other abilities that are still effective (if less powerful then their highest level spell slots).
Nice. I think that just may work.
While I'm adding things:
Weapon finesse is automatic, taking the feat gives dex to damage instead of str, and makes other weapons in the group finessable if not already so.
Improved unarmed strike deals damage as a first lvl monk of appropriate size.
Mundane clothing can be enchanted with armor bonuses, while glove can be enchanted with attack bonuses for unarmed strike (no need for AoMF).
I went with 6th lvl spells so I wouldn't have to alter the half caster classes, but thanks for the suggestion.
You do miss out on some not really unbalanced spells that way. Polar Ray, Stormbolts and some stuff in the polymorph school (Form of the Dragon II/III, Elemental Body and such.)
What is E12?
Nice, thanks for that. But it still doesn't address post lvl 12 games where full casters start to pull ahead by leaps and bounds over everyone else even 3/4 casters.
Ah... That makes sense now... I will reflect on these things.
Ah... That makes sense now... I will reflect on these things.
Although I find E12 MUCH more palatable than E6, I say don't give up the dream of full 20 level progression with the spellcasting you want!
I am working toward starting a similar campaign, and have identified the same spell levels as ideal (6th level spells). I will provide some kind of "epic" access to higher spells, as well as orienting resources along per-encounter lines. Save DCs will be 10+1/2 level+casting stat. I think these changes can do much to liven up the spellcasting and adventuring day. Delay in world breakers will mean more gritty adventuring, until higher levels....I do need to rewrite a few spells.
Work in progress.
Ok, I'm coming back to this thread. few things I know I want for all of my pure casters:
1) spell progression as the bard/ inquisitor, capping at 6th lvl spells.
2) dc = 10 + 1/2 lvl + mod. This is a HUGE boon for low lvl spells.
3) add + 2 to the spells/ day for each new spell lvl given. Prepared casters cap at 6 spell slots/ each spell lvl (+1 domain slot for clerics), and spontaneous casters cap at 8 spell slots/ lvl. This makes pure casters more viable early on.
4) meta magic is fueled by additional spell slots of an equal spell level.
Plus the fact that all of these classes get at least 4 skills/ lvl, is there anything I'm missing? Does it look balanced as is?
Just checked out the class, not quite sure how that addresses my issues, but thanks for the intro to that class.
One note on DC comparison, maybe extreme corner case, but oh well.
1st lvl spell at lvl 1 and 20:
RAW with minimum ability needed to cast the spell is 10 + 1 (spell lvl) + 0 (11 int) = DC 11 at lvl 1 and 20.
My way is 10 + 1 (min of 1/2 lvl) + 0 (int) = DC 11 at lvl 1, and DC 20 at lvl 20...
6th lvl spells need a min int of 16, but gives you a DC of 23 at lvl 20 vs a 19 (10+ 6 lvl spell + 3 from a 16 int). Casters are even more SAD needing a lesser prime casting stat letting them focus on other abilities to make them even more viable without their top 3 spell lvls.
Interesting, but I'm looking to level the playing field, so to speak. Take some of the uber godly might from the latter levels of the class, and front load a bit to make pure casters more attractive at lvl 1-4 with more spells and better DCs.
I think the point they were trying to make with Hellenic sorceress is that she will never learn any spells above 5th level, but she gets as many castings per day as having the higher level spells would allow, just having to reserve those slots for lower level spells instead...
If what you don't like about casters is that spells from the 7-9 list are 'too powerful' then hellenic is a way to have a full caster's daily casting progression without ever giving them the spells you seem to want to avoid.
Ah, I see now. I must have over looked that on my first look through.
The measure is the power curve. Low lvl casters suck, and high lvl casters are god-like. And this is compared to the relative power lvl of all the other classes.
The trick is to balance the power lvl without utterly screwing the class in the process.
Let me map out the suggested wiz spell progression just to clarify:
(Note: wizards still get an extra school spell, and clerics still get their extra domain spells)
1) 0-5, 1-3
2) 0-6, 1-4
3) 0-6, 1-5
4) 0-6, 1-6, 2-3
5) 0-6, 1-6, 2-4
6) 0-6, 1-6, 2-5
7) 0-6, 1-6, 2-6, 3-3
And so on, while spontaneous casters like the sorc get...
1) 0-6, 1-5
2) 0-7, 1-6
3) 0-8, 1-7
4) 0-8, 1-8, 2-5
5) 0-8, 1-8, 2-6
6) 0-8, 1-8, 2-7
7) 0-8, 1-8, 2-8, 3-5
And so on... (Is this what you were suggesting?)
Metamagic is fueled by spell slots of an = lvl so there is that, and low lvl casters take a lot longer to run out of juice.
I like the idea about upping the dmg die cap. Also summon spells start at summon monster/ natures ally 2 and cap at summon 7 to make up for that difference.
I think this and the DC boost is a significant enough shift to balance the power of pure casters while setting them apart from bards, inquisitors, and magi by having more than double the spell slots/ lvl and better selection. All PrCs that require 3rd lvl spells will now only require 2nd.
Does this make sense, or do I need to specify further?
Spell completion items could work off of caster level as well.
Biggest problem that I see is access to restoration and raise dead, but I'm ok with that too. It adds a bit to the mortality of the heroes.