Technically, no. Although your GM my allow it if you ask nicely. A Headband of Alluring Charisma would work with that feat though.
Why wouldn't this work? If you're using Charisma in place of Dexterity for initiative, then your initiative check is a Charisma check, or at worst, a Charisma-based Dexterity check. Either way, it would still qualify as a Charisma-based check.
technically it would I guess, just like versatile performance works. Personally I would disallow it for going beyond the intention of the headband, at least in my opinion. Otherwise I see no reason why not, initiative is still an ability check.
You can't replace your dexterity to initiative twice over, it would only apply once. It would be different if it said it added to the first modifier, but it replaces. The headband is meant for skill checks. Initiative is not a skill check.
You can only take Noble Scion at first level, by the way, so this is mildly moot, I think.
Would a Circlet of Persuasion apply its bonus on Initiative, too?
It would not work, and here's why:
This delicately engraved silver headband grants its wearer a +3 competence bonus on Charisma-based checks.
A competence bonus (or penalty) affects a character's performance of a particular task, as in the case of the bardic ability to inspire competence. Such a bonus may apply on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, caster level checks, or any other checks to which a bonus relating to level or skill ranks would normally apply. It does not apply on ability checks, damage rolls, initiative checks, or other rolls that aren't related to a character's level or skill ranks. Multiple competence bonuses don't stack; only the highest bonus applies.
It would not work because the Circlet gives a competence bonus, and competence bonuses cannot be applied to Initiative. That is the specific purview of the Headband of Alluring Charisma.
That having been said, I LOVE the character concept - great idea!
It does not apply on ability checks, damage rolls, initiative checks, or other rolls that aren't related to a character's level or skill ranks.
That's a good catch there (could you link us to it?), but there is one problem.
If we use that text for competence bonuses, then Inspire Courage cannot add to damage rolls, because the ability applies a competence bonus to damage rolls. In addition, a pale green prism ioun stone adds a +1 competence bonus to ability checks.
Without that contradictory sentence, the circlet would add to your initiative rolls, because an initiative check is an ability check, which would become Charisma-based.
-Matt
It does not apply on ability checks, damage rolls, initiative checks, or other rolls that aren't related to a character's level or skill ranks.That's a good catch there (could you link us to it?), but there is one problem.
If we use that text for competence bonuses, then Inspire Courage cannot add to damage rolls, because the ability applies a competence bonus to damage rolls. In addition, a pale green prism ioun stone adds a +1 competence bonus to ability checks.
Without that contradictory sentence, the circlet would add to your initiative rolls, because an initiative check is an ability check, which would become Charisma-based.
-Matt
Specific rule trumps general rule. Competence bonus won't apply to initiative checks or damage rolls unless the effects description specifically says it applies.
Still, I'd like to know from where the quote comes from, I can't find it on PRD.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Competence-Bonus
So, does this mean a cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone (+1 competence bonus on initiative checks) does literally nothing?
It does not apply on ability checks, damage rolls, initiative checks, or other rolls that aren't related to a character's level or skill ranks.That's a good catch there (could you link us to it?), but there is one problem.
If we use that text for competence bonuses, then Inspire Courage cannot add to damage rolls, because the ability applies a competence bonus to damage rolls. In addition, a pale green prism ioun stone adds a +1 competence bonus to ability checks.
Without that contradictory sentence, the circlet would add to your initiative rolls, because an initiative check is an ability check, which would become Charisma-based.
-Matt
In all fairness, my quote was from d20pfsrd.com, who was quoting the 3.5 rules on bonuses, which are much more in depth than anything that Paizo has put out. I didn't realize that at the time of my initial posting.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Bonus-Competence -If it's no longer valid for Pathfinder, for some reason, than someone needs to let d20pfsrd know, so they can take it down. This appears to be part of the rules that didn't get copy/pasted over, for some reason.
As far as the two specific instances you mentioned (Inspire Confidence and Pale Green Ioun Stone), I'd go with the "Specific Overrides General" rule... Those two cases specifically allow an exception to the rule. It's also worth noting that this ability and item both did the same thing in 3.5, where this rule is specifically called out.
Huh. Well, if that definition no longer exists in Pathfinder, then this should totally work.
In all fairness, my quote was from d20pfsrd.com, who was quoting the 3.5 rules on bonuses, which are much more in depth than anything that Paizo has put out. I didn't realize that at the time of my initial posting.
Mystery solved.
The thing about this rule, if it stuck around, is that the general rule never shows up in play, only specific things do. Only specific abilities, feats, items, etc. grant competence bonuses to specific things; there really aren't any "general" competence bonuses out there.
But that's a digression.
So, if that rule doesn't apply to Pathfinder, we know that:
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check.
So, an initiative check is an ability check, which Noble Scion can turn into a Charisma check. Thus, the circlet of persuasion's +3 would apply.
-Matt
My powers of persuasion let me move faster in battle?
I can't find the definition of ability check. Can someone show me it somewhere?
Huh. Well, if that definition no longer exists in Pathfinder, then this should totally work.
But that section included all kinds of bonuses, including racial, circumstance, and insight. A quick search of Paizo's PRD didn't show any definitions for these bonuses, either. I'd be much more inclined to believe that Paizo dropped a portion of the glossary for space (because other bonuses, like enhancement, dodge, and Armor, appear elsewhere), than that they intended to wipe the definitions of these different bonuses.
That section is just plain missing from Paizo's PRD, and the blank was apparently filled in by d20pfsrd.
There are other arguments for why this might not work - I just didn't want to open a can of worms, and led with what I thought was the strongest argument.
I agree with the others. Initiative is a Dexterity check, swapping cha for it w/o any text to change the basics of initiative means init is now a charisma check, so circlet works. Good catch.
The circlet also adds to concentration checks for charisma casters, a pretty nice little boon.
I agree with the others. Initiative is a Dexterity check, swapping cha for it w/o any text to change the basics of initiative means init is now a charisma check, so circlet works. Good catch.
The circlet also adds to concentration checks for charisma casters, a pretty nice little boon.
By raw at least, I am half tempted to put it up for FAQ for errata because it is actually too cheap for the uses it has, well less than half but at least a little tempted.
Rather than make it more expensive, I'd prefer if it just didn't add to some of these extraneous things. The social rogue who wants to up his skills a bit (ie, what it was intended for) shouldn't take a hit to the wallet just because the Sorc can abuse it for a sizeable Init and concentration bonus.
Rather than make it more expensive, I'd prefer if it just didn't add to some of these extraneous things. The social rogue who wants to up his skills a bit (ie, what it was intended for) shouldn't take a hit to the wallet just because the Sorc can abuse it for a sizeable Init and concentration bonus.
Hmm...
I'll have to research this further, but I am unsure about whether a concentration check is also an ability check.
-Matt
It doesn't need to be a charisma/ability check. It's a charisma-based check, which is good enough for the circlet.