For a little explanation of the logic that went into this. In earlier editions (before 3E, according to stories I've read on the net about these editions I never played), the Fighter had all good saves. This makes sense, especially given the Fighter's lack of magic with which to challenge Magic.
Actually, you are wrong about Fighter saves being all good in D&D, AD&D, AD&D 2nd ed, AD&D Player's Option. I have played them all. Cut my DMing teeth in 2nd ed.
Second, one of the things I usually tell players of Fighters is that since they get a feat at every level, but only every other level is a feat that can be used for anything, it would be wise to grab Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will to help even out their saves. This particularly gets noticeable in the upper levels, but makes a large impact in the lower ones (1-3).
Third, you should know that due to the character trait system in the back of the APG, you can grab more class skills. Some of this upgrade of yours can already be done. One thing I tell most Fighters is to take Highlander for Stealth, and perhaps Armor Expert (which stacks with the Armor Training ability).
You are right, Bravery is pretty useless for the most part.
I do not, however, see the reasoning behind granting Acrobatics and Perception, even Stealth as automatic class skills. Fighters are basically those guys who are professional warriors in armies. They don't really need Stealth in an army, and I know darned well that Acrobatics was not taught to any European warrior (which is the source material for the game, even if it is based on legends). Perception I could possibly see for archer types, but only for guards, not professional army archers.
Oh hey, this bit about not being able to challenge spellcasters? Malarkey. Just grabbing the speed increase feat and Improved Initiative alone would hose over magical types, but add in the two spell disruption feats specific to Fighters in the core rulebook...
Guys, have you ever thought about having a skill point version of Toughness, where you gain skill points instead of hit points?
Perception and Heal kinda fall in this category.
Stealth, not so much...
I don't see why a Fighter would be trained in Perception. These guys are typically the man-at-arms, knights, or part of a company of archers. They wouldn't need to have keen eyes. You just aim high and shoot at the group of enemy warriors yonder that way.
Heal really isn't much good unless you have a high Wisdom in Pathfinder, like it or not. Yeah, you can buy a lot of mundane gear to amp up Heal, which is nice, but most end up just having the divine caster of the group using Heal professionally, with only one other party member having backup skill in it.
A professional marksman, however, WOULD want Perception. Those are pretty rare though. Remember, Fighters are not trained to take out traps, or even to spot ambushes (that's for the General/leader of the army).
Those choices, Lemmy, can be simulated through giving your character a pair of traits from the back of the APG. Better yet, since Fighters have an abundance of feats, they can get more character traits if they wish. Most non-Fighters tend to blow their feats on class specific stunts, like Improved Counterspell.
What I would like to see is the removal of Int 13 for Expertise, as it tends to hose over Fighters in particular. Plus more Fighter specific feats. And, I think that Fighters would appreciate the d12 hit die of the Barbarian class. They ARE the professionals, after all.
Oh, also, Piccolo, you're forgetting something here. Fighter isn't ONLY rank and file soldiers. That's Warriors.
Fighter Class is supposed to be able to cover Commandos, Swashbucklers, Cavalry, and a ton of other things that aren't coming to mind at this time of night.
Yeah, I personally think that the Warrior should be eliminated as a NPC class. Just use the Fighter for it. The only real difference is the abundance of feats, and possibly the fancy Fighter class abilities (although the latter doesn't really kick in until high levels, and most NPC types don't have that).
1.) This isn't a "simple" fix.
2.) It's absurd. Not because it's overpowered, but it basically removes any specialization. Specialization is damn important. If this fighter can knock out 5 feat lines and have 10 exotic weapon proficiencies by 10th level, he's just boring.
"What does he do? He fights."
It robs the fighter of his identity. Flaws and limitations define your character far more than anything else. This is a terrible "fix".
Why would a swashbuckler need swim and diplomacy specifically?
And, allowing classes to take Toughness or the skill point version of it multiple times wouldn't be a strain on the system, because feats are the most rare and valuable thing in the game, with the possible exception of high attributes.
I'd argue spells are the most valuable resource in the game. Feats do come in second though (followed by skills and money)Why would a swashbuckler need swim and diplomacy specifically?
And, allowing classes to take Toughness or the skill point version of it multiple times wouldn't be a strain on the system, because feats are the most rare and valuable thing in the game, with the possible exception of high attributes.
Disagree. More spells per day can be had by simply increasing your attribute, as well as increasing the save DC while you are at it, and you can also grab those Pearls of Power (I think that's the name).
Experience levels are actually easier to get than feats, at least for non-Fighters. Attributes can be upped through items or spell effects.
I don't know of any magic item that grants feats in Pathfinder. Only levels in classes will grant them, and even then, not for every level. Notably, the Monk grants a few, as does the Ranger (weapon styles), and a handful for the Wizard and Sorcerer. But only the Fighter gets a feat with every level, because of their class and general feat progression that all characters get.
Here, I just typed this up, just used the Toughness feat words mostly:
Skilled- You gain +3 skill points. For every HD past 3, you get 1 additional skill point. If you have more than 3 HD, you gain +1 skill points whenever you gain a HD (such as whenever you gain a level).
All I know is, feats are a LOT harder to get than spells, and many grant constant bonuses instead of having durations. I usually tell players to get the boring numerical feats like Iron Will and Improved Initiative sooner rather than later, because they apply ALL the time. You get your money's worth, to be colloquial about it.
I dunno, I could see easily blowing those 3 skill points immediately, if only because you get an additional +3 bonus on class skills if you have one rank in them. Also, I would consider making Toughness and Skilled retroactive if possible, because you get boned if you don't take them in the first 3 levels otherwise.
Oh, I have these feats I got from a 3rd party publisher, so you may find them useful (included are suggestions for classes that might want them):
Divine Understanding-Use Wisdom instead of Intelligence for Spellcraft checks (need 4 ranks Spellcraft). (Clerics, Druids)
Force of Personality-Use Charisma instead of Wisdom for Will save (Sorcerers, Bards, and Paladins)
Mental Acumen-Use Intelligence instead of Wisdom for Will save. (Wizards, Rogues, and Bards)
Nimble-Use Dexterity instead of Strength for Climb checks. (anyone but most cleric and warrior types)
My only implemented fix so far is to Bravery: a straightforward +1 per level, and Intimidate is a Fear effect. As it stands, the big brave fighter has a worse save against Fear than a Good Will class at any level below 18th, and the paladin utterly blows his bravery out of the water at 3rd level. I also like Atarlost's limits on the effect of fear.
I'd probably also give them:
* 4 skill points including Acrobatics
* Armour Mastery gives the ability to sleep in armour (medium at 3rd, heavy at 7th) as per Endurance
* Kirthfinder's idea: Fighters add their Fighter levels to attributes for the purpose of qualifying for feats. Love this idea.
Those are all thing I would call "Small Fixes". I don't really think it's absolutely necessary for the game to work, but these changes don't seem like they would have a drastic effect on the game so I'm all for them.
Though as people are commenting to the effect, I'm becoming more inclined to the ksill point fix and redefining jumping, climbing, and swimming as Althletics. I always did have an issue with jump being encompassed by Acrobatics and defined by Dex. Muscle goes a longer way toward jump distance than agility.
Guys, have you ever thought about having a skill point version of Toughness, where you gain skill points instead of hit points?
It's been done - Open Minded - but it's a general feat, not a psionic one, so anyone can take it.
I don't see why a Fighter would be trained in Perception.
...because guards never have to stand watch or do sentry duty, right?
What I would like to see is the removal of Int 13 for Expertise, as it tends to hose over Fighters in particular. Plus more Fighter specific feats. And, I think that Fighters would appreciate the d12 hit die of the Barbarian class. They ARE the professionals, after all.
What I would like to see are options that make being smart useful in combat other than getting Combat Expertise.
With all the Fighter discussions going on, I spent some time pondering how I might make a simple Fighter Fix (without rewriting the entire feat system) that actually achieved the goal of making a flexible, diverse, powerful character, and this is what I came up with.
For a little explanation of the logic that went into this. In earlier editions (before 3E, according to stories I've read on the net about these editions I never played), the Fighter had all good saves. This makes sense, especially given the Fighter's lack of magic with which to challenge Magic.
Furthermore, the existence of Feat Chains is the bane of the Fighter's existence. It requires a Fighter wait to try to actually get to the interesting feats at the end of those wretched chains to get some real options. Therefore, I looked throughout the core rules for a decent example I could use to steal a progression from, lo and behold I found the Wizard. Wizards get two spells known of any level they are able to cast, which contrasts nicely against feats for which the Fighter Qualifies.
Skills: 5+Int per level (1 more than Barbarian, 1 less than Ranger. I don't care that it's non-standard, it works.) Add Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth to the Fighter's Class Skill list. Furthermore, Fighter Players can choose any two skills they like to be class skills upon taking level 1 in the Fighter class.
Saves: All saves have the good progression.
Weapon Proficiencies: the Fighter gains proficiency in one exotic weapon of his choice with each level of Fighter.
Bonus Feats: at each level, a Fighter gains two bonus feats for which he qualifies, one of these two bonus feats must be a Combat Feat.
Bravery: now also applies to Charms, Compulsions, and Death Effects
Armor Training: grants a dodge bonus equal to the value by which maximum dexterity would have been increased. (Fighters who want to invest in high dex can choose high-dex armors if they wish.)
Weapon Training: works equally on...
-I agree with the additional clas skills and that they should have more skill points per level, but i think 4 is enough.
-I don't think all saves need to be good, but I see how it would make sense-Bonus feats is super over the top. And the reason why I initially thought your post is trolling.
-The change to bravery I like, but I think it should be EITHER that OR good will save.
-Armor training is cool too.
-Weapon training I can't agree with. I think it's fine the way they specialize now. Although I think there should be an additional weapon category "swords" that combines swords from the heavy and light blades sections (without removing them from those)
-Armor mastery I think is cool too.
I think that would be way enough-
I like your ideas kyrt-ryder. I'd be eager to hear how they played out in game.
I'm running my second PF campaign and my fourth 3.5 campaign and none of my about 30 players over the years has been the slightest bit interested in playing a fighter. Not even to dip. I suppose that could just be the wacky way of statistics. But I do wonder if there isn't something lacking in the class construction.
I'll chat with my players before we start the next campaign about how to make it more interesting and have your ideas in reserve.
That's a good alternative for the EWP. Actually, the more I think about it, the more interested I would be in a workshop with my players to see how they would fix the fighter. What do they want a fighter to be able to do to make it interesting for them? Is it access to particular feats earlier in the game, is it more feats, is it simply more skills, is it just their idea of what a fighter is? I would think they, like you mentioned in the board, are also affected by literature and film, so perhaps they are put off by the challenge of playing a real stand-your-ground hero (unless they have the paladin's divine gifts boosting them up the wazoo).
Here's a toned down option.
- 4 Skills per Level. Acrobatics & Perception as Class Skills.
- Bravery Applies to Charms, Compulsions, and Mind-Affecting Effects.
- Good Reflex Save.
- May add Fighter Level to an Ability Score to meet Pre-Requisites. Alternatively they may add 1/2 Fighter Levels to their B.A.B. to meet B.A.B. Pre-Requisites.
The first allows a Human Fighter cover the "5 Basic Adventuring Skills*" with a INT 10. The Second allows them to be a bit more sturdy. The Third gives them 2 Good Saves like all other classes (IIRC). The Fourth allows a Fighter to get Feats easier than other classes.
As Feats are the Fighter's "Bread & Butter" I think it fits.
- Acrobatics
- Climb
- Perception
- Survival
- Swim
I homeruled Fleet to be +10 for Light Armour, +5 for Medium Armour, annd +0 for Heavy Armour. It is also a Combat Feat. That means a Fighter can take it and trade it later or keep it if they choose Mithril Armour.
And what is that "concept"?
Barbarian = bruiser with survival skills and the power of rage
Ranger = wilderness commando
Paladin = holy warrior
Fighter = warrior with advanced combat training
The combat side of a fighter is already well established. What they lack is utility that fits the concept.
more ranks = more training
knowledge history = whether a military person or a member of an elite martial guild, there would be the study of history
knowledge geography = if military, knowing about terrain and important places is vital
knowledge bonuses to ID creatures = when learning how to hurt things, it's good to learn how to ID, and the strengths and weaknesses of said things
feats = With these feats, some weaknesses (saves) and the niches are covered to round out the fighter.
There is no gun to your head enforcing that you select Fleet from that list. Besides, 5' or not, simply being faster than the guy you're in melee with can adjust combat terms in your favor (they can't escape, you can), so 35' vs. a 30' opponent isn't garbage.
The Knowledge Bonuses are similar to what another Class gets. It feels more like a Monster Hunter Archetypes Ability...
Fleet(R.A.W.) only applies if wearing Light or No Armour.
Concept: Swashbuckler, Knight, Commando, Shocktrooper, Guardian, Skirmisher, Scout, etc etc.
To really fill these out through combat feats takes more combat feats than a normal Fighter will ever get. Take a look at the d20pfsrd and see everything there, most of which never gets taken because of essentials.
wouldn't you use a rouge for a swashbuckler, cavalier/paladin as a knight, barbarian for a skirmisher, and a ranger as a scout? these are roles these classes are often used for. If the fighter does this, why really play them?
There are a handful of archetypes which don't have proficiency in medium or heavy armor. Bracers of Armor...
I specifically selected some ho-hum feats so that the Fighter can explore their options for "free", allowing them to use their base odd-HD-feats more effectively.
With some creativity they can be very useful (such as Skill Focus - Intimidate with the Dazzling Display feat chain).
The monster hunter thing is a matter of opinion.
When I think of an advanced military academy training elite soldiers, and choosing to completely neglect to teach them about the kinds of creatures they could face on the field of battle, the words "training fail" come to mind. Professional fighters (IRL) study videos of their opponents over and over again. Professional officers (IRL) are taught extensively about enemy tactics and equipment. I see the Fighter class as being in those same echelons, having studied potential enemies so they can counter them. Sun Tzu, like many other students of warfare, understand the value of knowing the enemy. Sun Tzu isn't exactly 21st century, he was truly old school, like iron age, so this concept isn't a modern one.
The fighter is already good at fighting so I dont see how the changes helped other than the one that gives more skill points.
Making the fighter better at combat feats might be the way to go. As an example instead of a +4 from improved initiative the fighter gets an addition +1 every 4 levels.
Maybe an ability to ignore difficult terrain later in the game, the ability to eventually move and get more than one attack, without an archetype.
Bonuses to climb, swim, and acrobatics.
Basically the fighter needs options. Damage potential is good as is.
edit:One thing I stole from Book of Nine Swords was the ability to change which weapons feats such as weapon focus worked with. It did not come up that often, but it was nice when it did.
I didn't GIVE Fighters any increases to damage or to-hit.
Except for all those extra feats and the EWPs. EWPs such as Bastard Sword (+1 damage over longsword), feats such as X Weapon Focus (+n to hit), X Wpn Spec (+n to damage), X Vital Strike (+n to damage), X Critical (+n to probability of damage), Furious Focus (+n to hit), Manyshot (+n to damage), etc etc. And that's just core.
You've not increased it at 20th level, but you've increased it every level before by making those damage increasing feats available sooner.
Increasing flexibility almost always increases exploitation. A strategic character builder with such a class would, by my (non-exact) estimation could significantly exceed a Barbarian or Ranger of equal level.
This to me looks like in MMOs how the devs "balance" the game with giant sweeping strokes, turning last week's underpowered character into something that inspires unanimous cries for "nerf".
The OP-proposed fighter fix will have equal or better saves than the Monk, more skill points than everyone but the INT-classes and rogue, superior combat ability to pretty much everyone... it's just unbalanced to my eye.
The fighter never lacks combat, but only lacks utility. Simply add utility that's thematic and you have an enjoyably fixed class.
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To add:
Look at my proposed fix. By level 10 the fighter gets 3 additional (restricted) feats. They're so very not combat feats, but they open the doors to other avenues for fighter utility.
Say you wanted a stealthy warrior - no problem! Skill Focus (stealth) and Stealthy add +5 to Stealth (increasing to +10 at 10 ranks) which is nothing to sneeze at. Add Lightning Reflexes or Alertness for added rogue-ish style.
Say you wanted a quasi-gish - no problem! Skill Focus (UMD) and Magical Aptitude add +5 to UMD (increasing to +10 at 10 ranks) which is (again) pretty sweet. Add Iron Will or Skill Focus (spellcraft) or Skill Focus (know arcana) to fill it out further.
These are all over and above what an SRD 10th level fighter has. PLUS they also get +5 to knowledge checks in identifying enemy weaknesses and abilities, PLUS another 20 skill ranks.
How does this not provide the resources for a fighter to fill out their concept?
When you make a fix, build it out a few different ways and ask yourself
(1) Can I easily H4X this to make a broken build?
(2) Will this turn any other characters into redundant window dressing?
If the answer to both of these is "no", you have a decent candidate. If either of them has a "yes", you went tooooo far.
Yes, he'd get some of them. But not ALL of them, which is what you're giving them.
Vital strike doesn't increase your options; it just lets you do more damage when you're doing what you could do before, ie a standard action single attack.
And: Point Blank Shot (+ to hit and damage), X Precise Shot (+ to hit), Blindfight (more likely to hit), Combat Reflexes (more attacks), Weapon Finesse (+ to hit), Far Shot (+ to hit), Double Slice (+ damage), Focused Shot (+ damage), Penetrating Strike (+ damage), Precise Strike (+ damage), Unarmed Strike tree (+ damage, etc etc etc).
Not to mention your change to Weapon Training. If that doesn't increase damage or to-hit, I'm clearly looking at a different rulebook.
The Ranger and Bard have 6 Skills/Level...
Really all they need is something to increase their Combat Choices and increased Skill.
If you look at mine I don't allow them to get Weapon Specialization or such earlier. As they still need their Fighter Level to get it.
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Funny the Vital Strike+ Thread keeps saying Vital Strike Sucks because it doesn't increase Damage and what not.
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I roll all of the Vital Strike feats into one (as I do with the Two-Weapon Fighting feats). Helps, but it's still situational.
@Detect Magic: I do the Vital Strike Feats but not the TWF Feats as that kinda hurt the effectiveness of taking TWF Ranger Combat Style and makes the Weapon & Shield Style to potent.
So what you're trying to say, is that its ok for a Fighter to deal the damage the rules currently allow... but only with a single type of weapon and under very specific circumstances am I right?
How likely is it that the fighter will NOT have his favourite or second-favourite weapon? A smart fighter has a favourite melee weapon and a favourite missile weapon.
That's the very definition of lack of options. This fix gives options by breaking open those barricades and allowing the Fighter to mix and match and switch up his tactics and equipment.
That the ultimate combat specialist can choose any weapon he wants to specialise in, and any combat style, and still have feats left over for a second favourite? It's a case of making the right choices at the outset.
My change to weapon training doesn't increase damage or to-hit. It's still the same it always was for the Fighter's best weapon group. Except now the Fighter's best weapon group is 'Weapons' rather than some small subsection of them.
So? Most fighters will still use just a few favourites anyway.
I see a simple way to fix the fighter: You know the archetypes we have? Well, have the fighter pick one at level 1. However, instead of replacing abilities, just make that the archetype gets added entirely.
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So, here's a thought.
Background: After running the Beginner's Box 3 times now, I can't say how much I love not having attacks of opportunity provoked by movement. The game is just smoother and faster and much less meta. (I hate watching someone take 5 minutes to plan out every, single square their PC will pass through to be sure they avoid any AoO's. So time-consuming and silly.) That said, I know there are people who enjoy that tactical movement aspect and the concept of a fighter so dangerous he threatens everyone who comes near him.
Suggestion: Only fighters can take attacks of opportunity provoked by movement. Otherwise, attacks of opportunity are no longer provoked by any kind of movement. Drinking potions and casting spells and all of that still provokes, but not movement.
This makes fighters slightly more dangerous in battle than a typical character. I originally thought of making AoO's provoked by movement a feat in my game, but this might be a justified class feature special to fighters. Thoughts?