Let me start with this: This is for PFS, so I need RAW, not homebrew, not GM fiat, not interpretations. And I need citations, so I can show it to future GMs. (Also I don't care about Multiattack because I can't use it.)
So if any of you are still reading, my question starts with this:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary) can reduce these penalties.
I have a Tengu with a reach weapon and a bite attack. For the sake of this theoretical let's assume it's a mundane weapon with no inherent bonuses. Again for the sake of this theoretical the BAB is 1 and the Strength Bonus is 2. (Easy math.)
Question #1: So it looks like, per these rules, I can make an attack with my melee weapon at +3 (BAB plus Str), and immediately follow up with a Bite attack at -2 (BAB plus Str minus 5). Is this right?
Question #2: Exactly what impact does taking TWF have on this? Does that mean (assuming #1 is right) that my Bite attack would simply be taken at +3 (BAB plus Str with no penalty)? That seems like a big bonus, so I'm wondering if there are separate rules for this application.
Question #3: When my BAB becomes 6 and I get an iterative attack on that primary melee weapon, is it Weapon/Bite/Weapon, with the second Weapon attack being at -5 for iterative? I know natural attacks aren't iterative in and of themselves, but when being used as secondary to a melee weapon, do you still get that one attack from them? Or does the decision to use iterative attacks with the primary weapon preclude the secondary attack with the natural weapon?
Thanks.
1. You are correct.
2. TWF has nothing to do with this situation, as you are only fighting with one weapon. TWF is for fighting with a main hand weapon and an off-hand weapon, per the combat section in CRB. What is useful in this situation is multiweapon attack, which as you say can not be used in PFS, but that is what you need to reduce the penalty of secondary natural attacks.
3. You can use iterative weapon attacks along side secondary natural attacks. There are examples of this in the Bestiaries. Devils/demons are the best examples of this.
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#1: That is exactly right.
#2: Natural Weapons exist independantly of your normal iteratives. The one doesn't have any impact on the other. So you could take your two manufactured melee attacks at +1/+1 and then your bite at the same -2. Two Weapon Fighting only affects the bonuses and penalties of your off-hand and main-hand weapons.
Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Notice how two weapon fighting specifically references your off-hand and main hand for the interaction of penalties. There is no impact at all on natural attacks.
#3: You can make all of your iterative attacks with your weapon, and then your Bite at the same bonus it was taken at before you had an extra attack in the mix. For a good example of a creature combining iterative attacks with natural attacks, check out this half-fiend minotaur.
Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. The natural attacks by size table lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.
Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do. See the natural attacks by size table for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.
Format: bite +5 (1d6+1), 2 claws +5 (1d4+2), 4 tentacles +0 (1d4+1); Location: Melee and Ranged.
Okay, this is all good. Thank you for your quick answers.
One question: If TWF doesn't have an effect on Natural Attacks, why does the Natural Attack section reference TWF? That seems bizarrely misleading.
Originally, I was going to post this:
Basically, what happened was that the core rulebook was released and they needed some rules for them. But during the time between the CRB and when the B1 was released, Paizo changed its mind on how natural attacks worked. The most recent version of natural attacks is the Bestiary 3 version, so you should work off of that one.
But it looks like they meant to keep the portion you quoted. I think that section is only referencing combining natural attacks, unarmed attacks, and manufactured weapons.
But in all honesty, it's a confusing area that I'm really hoping the devs make clear one day with blog post.
They did, however, remove half of that paragraph in the 5th printing. The half you didn't quote, that is :)
They did, however, remove half of that paragraph in the 5th printing. The half you didn't quote, that is :)
Oh wow, no kidding.
In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks.
So by that rule, the whole thing would be different; the melee attack would take the normal -6 or whatever. Iiiinteresting. The mention of TWF next to Multiattack in the latest printing is probably just a leftover that they didn't take out.
That actually clears that up nicely. Thank you, Cheapy.