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Yes, but waxed paper will burn far less readily.
Regardless, there is no good reason to treat paper cartridges differently than other ammunition when it comes to blanching. You can argue in circles about flammability and all of that, but that's using flavor to make rules and we all know you can't do that.
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Yes, but waxed paper will burn far less readily.
Regardless, there is no good reason to treat paper cartridges differently than other ammunition when it comes to blanching. You can argue in circles about flammability and all of that, but that's using flavor to make rules and we all know you can't do that.
It isn't using flavor to make rules.
Its using the rules as they apply to the item in question.
And yes, there is a good reason to treat paper cartridges differently than other ammunition.
Is the same reason you treat a wood door differently than a metal chain, or a short sword differently than leather armor.
The materials that make up the item are affected by the world and environment differently.
That isn't flavor of fluff. That's how the rules work.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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There is nothing in RAW that states paper burns. Instead, GM's must apply fire damage as they see fit. It certainly seems reasonable for a cartridge made of paper and full of gunpowder to burn when exposed to flame.Can anybody give me a citation, by RAW, that shows that an alchemical paper cartridge, if exposed to fire, will explode?
That may be nitpicky, but so again is saying that the blanch can't be applied to the bullet before being put into the cartridge.
The implication that the cartridge would explode if being placed over an open flame is a common-sense approach. So too is the ability to apply weapon blanch.
Ah, but these are alchemical cartridges. We don't know what alchemy goes into it. While yes, it's reasonable to assume that the paper would burn and the black powder would explode, it's also just as reasonable to say that the alchemical process used would render the paper inflammable. Hardly a stretch if we consider the other things alchemists can do.
Regardless, however, if we apply the principle that if it's not in the rules it doesn't happen, then those cartridges don't explode. If we do not accept that principle, then weapon blanch can be applied. Either way, weapon blanch is applicable.
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Regardless, however, if we apply the principle that if it's not in the rules it doesn't happen, then those cartridges don't explode. If we do not accept that principle, then weapon blanch can be applied. Either way, weapon blanch is applicable.
That principle can't apply here.
1) The rules do say that gun powder explodes when exposed to fire.
2) Paper Cartridges have gun powder in them.
3) Precedent is set, that there is an item that protects gun powder from the environment around it. That's a powder horn.
If that isn't enough...
What is the blanch going to do if you apply it to a paper cartridge?
Seep through the paper to the bullet?
I doubt that putting it on the paper is going to do anything, since you aren't shooting someone with the paper.
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Anyways, those of you arguing for it, do whatever you want.
Just don't be surprised when better than half the GM's out there won't let you blanch your paper cartridges.
I don't feel the rules are ambiguous on this. Some of you do, apparently. So use the ambiguity knowing full well that you probably won't get to use the blanch at most of the tables you'd play at.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Regardless, however, if we apply the principle that if it's not in the rules it doesn't happen, then those cartridges don't explode. If we do not accept that principle, then weapon blanch can be applied. Either way, weapon blanch is applicable.
That principle can't apply here.
1) The rules do say that gun powder explodes when exposed to fire.
2) Paper Cartridges have gun powder in them.
If that isn't enough...
What is the blanch going to do if you apply it to a paper cartridge?
Seep through the paper to the bullet?
I doubt that putting it on the paper is going to do anything, since you aren't shooting someone with the paper.
1) Humans contain various explosive gasses, but do not explode when burned.
2) We don't know what an alchemical cartridge looks like, but I've always imagined that part of the bullet sticks out the edge, much as a modern day bullet protrudes from a metal casing.
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Regardless, however, if we apply the principle that if it's not in the rules it doesn't happen, then those cartridges don't explode. If we do not accept that principle, then weapon blanch can be applied. Either way, weapon blanch is applicable.
That principle can't apply here.
1) The rules do say that gun powder explodes when exposed to fire.
2) Paper Cartridges have gun powder in them.
If that isn't enough...
What is the blanch going to do if you apply it to a paper cartridge?
Seep through the paper to the bullet?
I doubt that putting it on the paper is going to do anything, since you aren't shooting someone with the paper.
1) Humans contain various explosive gasses, but do not explode when burned.
2) We don't know what an alchemical cartridge looks like, but I've always imagined that part of the bullet sticks out the edge, much as a modern day bullet protrudes from a metal casing.
1) That's a really, really, really, really, really silly argument. Seriously. I'm not even going to comment further on that.
2) look at the civil war and muskets. They didn't always have to pour powder, drop a round, and then tamp it and all that.
They actually had paper cartridges where they would use their teeth to rip the end off, and drop a charge of powder and the bullet into the barrel.
Made loading muskets much faster.
I'm not an expert on all of this, but I do know they had paper cartridges.
If you would be referring to a metal cartridge, I'd agree.
But this is paper. The metal bullet is encased inside the paper.
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I've pretty much envisioned paper cartridges as something like this. Real world examples make more sense to me than trying to attribute too much to the fantastical.
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I've pretty much envisioned paper cartridges as something like this. Real world examples make more sense to me than trying to attribute too much to the fantastical.
Yup, that pretty much is how I described them.
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And I expressed that particular rule of thumb as my opinion. So stop trying to chastise me for it only being my opinion. I never expressed otherwise.
I'm just trying to give advice that works for me. If you don't want to take it, then you can continue to ask...
But you did! In fact, you started your argument by doing so. You said, "[y]ou can’t use the absence of a rule to support being able to do something. You can only use the absence of a rule to support not being able to do something."
This isn't the advice forum; nobody here is asking for advice. This is the forum where we need official answers. Your answer is not official, and is being based off something that isn't written anywhere, but you're presenting it as Truth. It's misleading, and it's an abuse--intentional or otherwise--of the authority implied by your title, which appears on every post you make in this forum.
I'm not trying to score points here, Andrew, I'm asking you to please revisit your posting style, because you're giving people the wrong impression, and I don't think that's where you want to be.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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I spoke to the design team this morning about this issue. Alchemical cartridges are not meant to have blanch applied to them. I was advised, in a home game, the GM can make whatever call they like. But, for PFS, alchemical cartridges can not receive a blanch.
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I spoke to the design team this morning about this issue. Alchemical cartridges are not meant to have blanch applied to them. I was advised, in a home game, the GM can make whatever call they like. But, for PFS, alchemical cartridges can not receive a blanch.
Thanks for the answer Mr. Brock. I appreciate the work you do for this campaign.
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Just so you know where I stand, I am bummed that there is no current path to having ghost salt apply to alchemical cartridges too.
But you can still add the salt to single bullets at the same level as bolts and arrows. The downside being reload times. So the new question should be if the Campaign Staff is willing to say why firearms should restrict their rate of fire when compared to bows and crossbows, only in the case of weapon blanches. On the surface it doesn't seem fair, but maybe they have a good reason.
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Also bullet and powder are the default reload to a gun, not the paper cartridge. If you can do the same to a bullet you can to a bolt or arrow it is equivalent. The paper cartridge is a separate special ammo that has become the choice of players but it is not the base ammo you should put all of your assumptions on
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Also bullet and powder are the default reload to a gun, not the paper cartridge. If you can do the same to a bullet you can to a bolt or arrow it is equivalent. The paper cartridge is a separate special ammo that has become the choice of players but it is not the base ammo you should put all of your assumptions on
This is probably the best argument against I have read. There are bullets, bolts and arrows, and then their are alchemical cartridges and magazines for repeating crossbows. You wouldn't ghost salt the magazine. Sure it's easier to visualize taking apart the magazine and salting the bolts than taking apart a paper cartridge, but I'm coming around a bit.
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I'm not saying you can't get a wizard to do it. Just that I am seeing a different perspective now. I saw bullets, arrows and alchemical cartridges as the same before, but now I am looking at alchemical cartridges and bolt magazines and anything else I can't remember that makes reloading easier as something different than ammunition.
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Essentially, gunslingers either have to spend 9,000+gp (which means they need 27 fame) to get a +1 Ghost Touch gun, or fall back on the worse action economy of NOT using alchemical cartridges, meaning a pistoleer with Rapid Reload wouldn't be able to full attack without suffering the 50% miss chance.
By this, you of course mean "suffering the half damage penalty", seeing as there's only a 50% miss chance when attacking incorporeal enemies in the 3.5 rules.
I don't see an issue. By the time you are frequently encountering incorporeal enemies, you have access to the Deadshot deed. Muzzle load a regular ghost salted bullet, and Deadshot it the next round. Incorporeal enemies tend to have low health anyway. Incorporeal enemies can also be one of the few things that a tricked out gunslinger cannot shred in a single round.
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I am fine with the ruling... makes good enough sense to me.
As to only being able to fire a single shot per turn, then to me this seems like a good argument for having Vital Strike (and Deadly Aim). Make each shot count!
Either that, or just plaster the incorporeal beastie with magical lead, and take advantage of the fact that with all of your shots that even 50% damage will do a lot!
You'll be taking advantage of the fact that undead in Pathfinder only have d8 hit dice, and the change from 50% miss to 50% damage. You do have a magical boom stick at that level, right?
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My slinger may have to carry a pepperbox full of the ghost salt bullets after reading this.At a comparatively cheap price of ~3500, that's not a bad idea. Sounds better than the ghost touch enchantment at least.
My Musket Master uses her pepperbox with the following mix. Two silver, two cold iron, two adamantine bullets. That way she can pull, 'dial' to the chamber and shoot. (ask a certain wererat in an interactive how that felt.)
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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That's a question for the design team for the overall rules set and not just PFS. We don't allow creating custom items in PFS for numerous reasons. It sounds what you are asking for is a custom item that isn't listed in any Rulebook. Please ask your question a few forums up so the design team can address.