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I'm pretty excited to run this for our groups 8-9s next Saturday, that said...
I fail to understand how anyone could think that Shadow Orchid could effectively death-attack the pcs. Her tactics section uses some of the clearest language I have ever seen in a PFS module. Intent is more important than a slight loophole that doesn't even work, because it's not part of her tactics.
unless she's a worshipper of asmodeous and owns AP 29 :-p
It get the feeling you're just joking around, but to be clear to anyone who misunderstands, it states in the module very plainly that she is a worshiper of Abadar(She has a key to the city heavy shield in her picture lol). This is why you should ignore the alternative summons list on pfsrd when designing encounters heh.
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This is one of the good guys?It does sound a bit self-serving. The veil of "pathfinder business and interests" for this one is pretty thin.
Sounds more like something I would expect from Guaril Karela or ol' Dalsine before he took a dirt nap.
I actually don't see a big problem with that mission. Here are
some points to consider that you seem to have overlooked:-Ascular Vruul is a Silver Aspis Agent which makes him a competently dangerous person by his very rank in the Consortium.
-The Aspis hate the Society and the feeling is mutual.
-Vruul manipulated Maldris then betrayed him.
-Vruul is also a described as a devious (Chelaxan and Infernal) sorceror who is guilty of blackmail, and when the party encounters him for the first time, he shows his true murderous, selfish nature by ordering his troops to attack (Kill) the party but leave one alive for interrogation. His desperation doesn't justify the assault.
-He is also shown to be allied with bugbears and an evil cleric of Abadar (and off camera, with Shadow Orchid).
If he was such a nice guy deserving of the party's mercy, then he should have parleyed with them first.
No, in my opinion, Vruul gets what he deserves, if there are any Andorans in the party. Heck, even without any Andorans, his attitude will get him killed. Either way, he ends up dead. Even my own Andoran characters would kill him; they could legally claim "self-defense" since he attacked first with murderous intent. Vruul seems to have racked up some bad karma in his NE-selfish-pathetic life and pay back's a -----!
I won't fault my players if their Andorans or even Silver Crusaders kill him. That's my take on it.
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There is no doubt Vruul is evil and deserves to die (in fantasy terms).
There is little doubt he will die in the adventure, with or without Andorans.
What's in doubt is the nature of the mission assigned which only labels Vruul as a blackmailer, and casts Andoran leadership in a much more evil light as scheming killers.
The 'good guy' did a 'bad thing' and is getting blackmailed. So he upgrades 'bad thing' to 'worse thing' by killing, as far as we know, an opportunistic, socially adept neutral person. Ridiculous.
Vruul is not getting killed because he's evil, but because he's 'in the know', which BTW, the Andoran PCs are too!
It all stinks.
Yes, the mission turns out all right in the end because Vruul instigates violence, wiping away any sense of personal guilt, but what Andoran wouldn't feel qualms?
If I were running this with an Andoran, I would ask the GM if there were any way my PC could get this guy fired, and/or confess his transgressions publicly.
If I were not Andoran, I might want to blackmail him myself. :) (Except not because he'd have me killed too.)
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Anyone who dies to a death attack from this scenario should have it removed. While GMs do make mistakes, they should be rectified when possible.
I will talk to my VL tomorrow (He's in my Eyes of the Ten game) and see if he can reverse my wife's death. That would give both me and Nosig and big chunk of gp back.
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Ascular Vruul is described in the faction missions as a traitor to the pathfinders and moreover being responsible for the deaths of numerous pathfinder agents(see silver crusade/shadow lodge). Presumably if an Andoran agent who's feeling unmotivated asks around they'll be able to learn a bit about Vruul's actions which would likely make their assignment more palatable.
If your lucky one of the members of a less scrupulous factions will just kill him for you so you don't have to get your freedom fingers dirty.
Anyways it's just another mission that highlights what us Grand Lodgerers already knew, which is don't involve your personal beliefs and agendas with the business of the pathfinder society(I'm mostly kidding do whatever is fun =P).
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When I ran this a few weeks ago, I had an Andoran and a Shadow Lodge PC. Both of these factions require Vruul's death.
What was very funny to me is that the Shadow Lodge player kept her mouth shut throughout the Andoran player's entire moral dilemma. She let him do all the dirty work, and I congratulated her on her poker face at the end.
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When I ran this a few weeks ago, I had an Andoran and a Shadow Lodge PC. Both of these factions require Vruul's death.
What was very funny to me is that the Shadow Lodge player kept her mouth shut throughout the Andoran player's entire moral dilemma. She let him do all the dirty work, and I congratulated her on her poker face at the end.
That was pretty sly of her. Nicely done.
MassivePauldrons brings up another point that I forgot to note in my list to justify the Andoran's mission. I'm still ok with it, for this particular scenario.
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In my gameing area, we have a few Qadirian/Osirion/Cheliaxian PCs who will go out of thier way to take the bad guys alive. Often saying "Don't Kill 'em! They're worth more alive!". Implying they are going to insure these guys end up in the salt mines (slaves). This has caused Andoran PCs to endevor to kill them dead. Thus preventing them from being enslaved. I heard the phrase "Freeing them to their final rewards" or something like that.
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If the Andorans in this were to make an extra effort to kill the guy? No one would even notice...Andorans have that rep. "Kill 'em all, Pharasm will sort them out."
Making slaves out of evil folk=cool, and a good RP/tactical challenge
As for Death Attack happening...
If she can go undetected, she can do Death Attack (1/day, higher tier, via Swift Death). Given she has Hide In Plain Sight too, this seems pretty likely. Then there's the extra funds to overcome True Death.
Just sayin', she's a pushover, but does have a trick up her sleeve.
JMK
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Nosig, that's correct.
If ANYONE is using the death attack to kill PCs, they are not reading the tactics. Swift Death does not negate the requirement that your opponent not recognize you as an enemy.
If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice). Studying the victim is a standard action. The death attack fails if the target detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemy (although the attack might still be a sneak attack if the target is denied his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class or is flanked). If the victim of such a death attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin's class level + the assassin's Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.
No death attack, period.
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I agree no Death Attack while talking, nor in initiating combat. And that the specific instance was both brutal and wrong.
I meant she hides during combat (In Plain Sight), then hits with Swift Death the next turn.
I disagree with "No death attack, period.", though the "OR" in your bolded section gives me pause. But...
Have you never seen Death Attack in a combat situation? I've heard many tales of Assassins lurking for 3 rounds, in combat, then coming out to deliver a Death Attack.
Has this been an error all along? Is Death Attack completely unusable in combat, if you have been noted as an enemy?
If so, you've just nerfed Assassins.
flippancy
Heck, I'd get as many pictures of assassins as I could.
"Enemy. Check." (next picture) "Check." (next picture) (Repeat)
RAW, this works.
/flippancy
RAI, I think they meant "AND" because "detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin..." means the target does not need to recognize you as an enemy. They just need to detect you at all.
So by RAW, the target cannot detect you AND cannot recognize (think of) you as an enemy for Death Attack to function. (Because the other meaning of recognize has no meaning in the context of not detecting.)
Also this (sort of) conflicts with Quiet Death, a kill in plain view, implying the target had you in view too.
Hmmm...a puzzle this is.
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I haven't nerfed assassins. That's how assassins have worked since the Core Rulebook came out, and perhaps before (I'm not going to check the 3.5 version).
If Shadow Orchid were to stealth using Hide in Plain Sight and remain undetected by four to six 8-9 PCs, then sure. However, I don't think she'll manage it with her +8 to Stealth. You may notice her book gives her the -10.
I would hazard a guess that the writers did not want a Death Attack to be possible. Don't go out of your way to do it.
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I haven't nerfed assassins. That's how assassins have worked since the Core Rulebook came out, and perhaps before (I'm not going to check the 3.5 version).
So you're saying Assassins can never use a Death Attack in an encounter where they've been detected? Even if they then go undetected for 3 rounds first? My experience with PC Assassins is scant, but I've heard of many instances where an Assassin, seen, then goes unseen, sneaks around, then snarfs the BBEG on round 4-5.
Taking this away nerfs Assassins.
If Shadow Orchid were to stealth using Hide in Plain Sight and remain undetected by four to six 8-9 PCs, then sure. However, I don't think she'll manage it with her +8 to Stealth. You may notice her book gives her the -10.
One, you seem to be saying she could do it, if she goes undetected. (Which means there's probably a miscommunication error re: the first part of this reply and the nerfing.)
Two, she only has to succeed vs. her target.Three, yes, there's a very good chance they knocked her Stealth down to castrate the HiPS ability.
I would hazard a guess that the writers did not want a Death Attack to be possible. Don't go out of your way to do it.
I agree and I'm not going out of my way. I'm not approaching this as a lawyer, with a side to defend, but as a scientist, exploring the evidence. Personally, I dislike save or die, especially so early.
As for the Death Attack rules:
I really think it is supposed to be "detect the Assassin AND recognize the Assassin as an enemy".
With "OR", the extremely literal reading of the rules means the target only needs to recognize you as an enemy, whether or not he even knows you're on the same continent. And you could never Death Attack somebody with the common trope of 'being their waiter and slashing their throat' because they do detect you.
*sigh* Why couldn't she just have been a Rogue/Monk if they didn't want her to do what Assassins do?
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Taking this away nerfs Assassins.
That's how the ability is written. I haven't taken anything away from them. Therefore, I am not nerfing them. They were already like that.
One, you seem to be saying she could do it, if she goes undetected. (Which means there's probably a miscommunication error re: the first part of this reply and the nerfing.)
If Shadow Orchid were to get away, she would no longer be detectable. If she's not detectable, she's no longer recognized as an enemy. Therefore, death attack is technically possible, if you go way off the tactics. What is not possible is her sitting in her book store and then death attacking someone while not in stealth.
*sigh* Why couldn't she just have been a Rogue/Monk if they didn't want her to do what Assassins...
They made her an assassin because they wanted her to legitimately be an assassin. They don't want death attack though, and that's why it's explicitly in the tactics that it doesn't work.
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Remember, I'm on your side re: she shouldn't Death Attack.
But...
Sorry, I can certainly recognize an enemy who escapes as still being my enemy. Detection is irrelevant to this recognition.
The "OR" part of the rules means I don't even have to detect him. The mere recognition eliminates his ability to Death Attack me. Ever.
Hence, I believe it's meant to be "AND" and the language you use implies you agree.
Please don't skip this question this time:
So you're saying Assassins can never use a Death Attack in an encounter where they've been detected? Even if they then go undetected for 3 rounds first?
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Reading over the assassin ability, that's exactly what I'm saying. Being undetected and not recognized as an enemy is a paramount part of the ability. Looking back over what I wrote, I am now unsure that Shadow Orchid hiding would allow her to death attack. In fact, I would say it doesn't, because they still recognize her as an assassin.
Remember that the death attack is failing because the PCs recognize Shadow Orchid as an assassin. It's not just a matter of her becoming undetected again, because they still know what she's going to do.
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Fair enough.
And it matches the strict sense of the wording, that both conditions have to be met: Undetected & not recognized as enemy to qualify.
But, in play, Assassins I know of always used Death Attack in combat by hiding/going invisible for 3 rounds.
Given it's an Assassin's trademark ability, this still seems like a nerf (even if just a clarification).
The flip side is your waiter can't perform a Death Attack either.
You can see him. (It'd still be a flat-footed Sneak Attack though.)
The wording of the scenario has it so she could DA except they know she's an Assassin. Turns out, she can't DA anyway because PCs can detect her.
Wait...that doesn't seem right.
But RAW, it is.
So, yeah, I'm endorsing an errata to "AND" or to change the wording to phrase when you can, rather than when you can't.
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Low tier cleric of abadar can't have the feats she does.
She doesn't have a +1 bab at first level to take weapon focus or power attack. The low tier version should probably have lightning reflexes in place of weapon focus, or one of the other feats that don't have prerequisites from the high tier version.
Venture-Captain, Mississippi–Hattiesburg
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So, it seems that we have established that death attack will not work.
Here's another issue - The module states that once you go into the tapestry to the shrine you must have the Codex to be able to return (page 12). The concern I have is that what if there is a TPK inside the shrine; does this allow the Society to recover the bodies of their agents (by paying the 5PP)? Or all of those players simply out of luck and the entire table is done? I've been looking through the scenario for failure conditions but I must be missing it...
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I don't know Mergy.....
Are corpses creatures or objects?
A minimum 5 mile error in destination could leave you anywhere and you may end up 500 miles away.
I would go with a Gate spell. That guarantees you the right spot and if the team is fast enough (minimum 19 rounds) they can get in, collect bodies/loot, and be out with only 1 casting.
Edit: 5PP is worth a little more than the cost of a 9th level spell to be cast as a service. Considering the Pathfinder society is charging 5PP per dead player and they may collect more than 1 body per casting....The Society is ripping us off!
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Venture-Lieutenant, Michigan—Detroit
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I would go with a Gate spell. That guarantees you the right spot and if the team is fast enough (minimum 19 rounds) they can get in, collect bodies/loot, and be out with only 1 casting.
Per the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, page 25:
Spells that are 7th level or higher are not available from spellcasting services.So, no gate. (Unless there's something else of which I am not aware.)
Extrapolating from the mod:
The letter from the Aspis Consortium to Shadow Orchid is dated 2 months ago. The Aspis group is listed as having been in the vault for 1 week. Presumably, the time between was used by the Aspis to develop and cast the ritual to enter the vault. They're certainly not going to hand it over to the Pathfinders, so the Society is going to have to develop their own ritual. Assuming a like amount of time, raise dead won't be an option.
So what does happen if the group's TPK'ed in the vault? My first impression is perma-death because of the circumstances, but the mod does not address it.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Michigan—Detroit
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Mergy: I am unaware of Xun being an indiscriminately killing organization.
The Xun are not an organization in and of themselves, but rather a part of the Golden League. "Indiscriminate", no. "Killing", definitely. From the Dragon Empires Gazeteer, page 55, under the Golden League entry:
Each of these families keeps a fighting arm of tattooed assassins and soldiers known as the "Xun," remorseless and relentless specialists in murder and intrigue.|
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You pay the 5 PP to have your body rescued.
Note that it’s possible for a player to spend her character’s Prestige Points even if the PC is dead, petrified, or otherwise out of commission. In essence, this represents the PC having made prior arrangements with her faction to perform certain actions on her behalf, such as recovering her dead body and returning it to a specific location or having it raised from the dead. In this event, the PC’s actual location does not impact the Prestige Point cost.
Assuming there is a body to be recovered 5PP recovers it even if you've been imprisoned or abandoned on Akiton, or stuck in the Tapestry behind a door that the only known way to open is with a key that is on the wrong side. How exactly the body is recovered is irrelevant, the various factions have incredible resources to bring to bear and thanks to Grandmaster Torch's efforts have been convinced to recover the bodies of Pathfinders.
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You as a player can't purchase said service. Doesn't mean that the spell is available for NPC use as an explanation for how they get the bodies back.
A written example: King of Storval Stairs has a CL18 Greater teleport cast on the party. This is a spell that can't be found according to that rule, but the higher ups of Society use it anyway.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Michigan—Detroit
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Hmmm...I wonder if things are afoot, if choices could matter, or if, if, if......? HMMM...... Lets watch and see how this one plays out. It WILL be interesting? It is my understanding an atonement is cheap....... ;-)
Hmm...well, I guess we'll have to see, but I'm not too much liking this if you can't count on the organization you joined to be what it purported itself to be. I think I could swallow this better when I thought it was a one-off anomaly than part of a bigger scheme.
The prestige mechanic is directly tied to your success and failure on your faction missions and determines what you can buy and what boons you can get. Which means if you signed up thinking that your PC's goals and your faction's more-or-less aligned and you're wrong, you're going to either be acting against character (and possibly atone-ing) or losing out on prestige.
Switching factions costs you and if your first faction changed, there's no reason to think that the next won't do the same.
Now, don't get me wrong: I have purposely left prestige on the table (barbarian refusing help on a Heal check because "he's killed plenty, so he knows how to harvest organs from a body" or my paladin "losing" sweet Zarta's missives sometime between getting them and meeting with the Venture-Captain), so I'm not saying that gaining prestige is the be-all, end-all. But I at least understood going in that through my roleplaying choices I was self-limiting.
And in a less mechanical sense, your prestige is an indication of how others in your faction view you. While that, technically, has no bearing in the game, if your leader goes rogue or off the deep end or is replaced by a doppelganger, you're going to lose prestige if the missions that leader assigns you are at cross-purposes with the organization's original goals. When the situation is hopefully rectified and things are back to normal, there's no way to determine if you refused your missions because they were "wrong", or if you actually tried to do the missions and failed, so in a sense your choices (if you refused to do the mission) aren't going to matter.
Ah, well, there's my 32 cents on a subject I'm probably reading far too much into.
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I'm going to run this tomorrow and I am planning to play around a little loose on the death attack. I agree completely at no point should a character die from a death attack in this scenario. Just how I view it. However I want to develop the theme she's a bit older and maybe she doesn't realize she's not as powerful as she used to be. I'm going to let her get a death attack in, however because she's weaker now, if it hits, it's only going to paralyze the PC, if they make it it will leave a smoking hole in their shirt. The players don't know about her limitations, so the sheer "OH *&%^" of that happening I feel would really add some excitement to the encounter. At worst one of the melee guys is paralyzed for a bit while all hell is breaking out. I would like them to enter the shop and find an old lady smiling and offering them tea and snacks. I'd love to be able to RP them into a false sense of security then BAM. I think it would create a great moment that they would talk about. Just my thoughts on it.
Please don't change the encounters. I understand you're trying to make it fun for your players, but this is not the way to do it.
I like the smoking hole idea, so long as the mechanical effects include the death attack not working at all.
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She can't Death Attack because the PCs know she's an assassin.
My players hardly let 18 seconds go by before getting nervous and provoking her, so I'm surprised anybody gets any RPing in this scene.
I played her strike as her faintly touching, even stroking (very little base damage), but then stopping an artery for 20+ damage (with Sneak Attack).
Later, used a bugbear to lure PCs into entering the room, with ready action to make pit in doorway under 1st PC's feet.
The bugbears prove no barrier, so Vruul needs the pit to maintain safe zone. Bugbears can use cover and ready actions against jumpers.
Elemental took to air on round one, using reach to smother casters/archers. Proved very effective.
The fact the 1st hit did max damage did much to dissuade them from provoking. :)
Cheers, JMK
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I think you're dramatically misreading how death attack works in general, Adam... (which is important in, say, getting the end of Runecarved Key to work right).
That said, I agree that in THIS scenario, the death attack should be something she just takes off the table entirely, as it avoids nosig's situation, or Ryphus' change which would have the death attack BE working. Death attack already has a paralytic mode.
Feel free to demonstrate how I am misreading the ability. I'm aware of how the Runecarved Key fight works as well, and there is a key difference there.
