| wintersrage |
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If i was to take a half giant who gets
Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants
lets them function in many ways as if they were one
size category larger.
Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifer
or special size modifer for an opposed check (such as
during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip
attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if
doing so is advantageous to him.
A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger
when determining whether a creature’s special attacks
based on size (such as grab or swallow whole) can affect
him.
A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature
one size larger without penalty. However, his space
and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size.
The benefts of this racial trait stack with the effects of
powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s
size category.
and give him
You can balance heavy weapons making them easier to wield.
Prerequisite: Str 13, BAB +3
Benefit: Chose one type of weapon. When using a
weapon of that type you may reduce the effort required to
wield it by one step but suffer a -2 penalty to hit with that
weapon. This allows you to wield a weapon one size larger
as if it were your own size, use a two handed weapon in one
hand, or a one handed as a light weapon.
and
You have mastered the use of over-sized weapons.
Prerequisite: Str 15, Lighten Weapon, BAB +8
Benefit: Chose a weapon when taking this feat. When
using the lighten weapon feat you do not suffer the associated
-2 to hit penalties for using that feat with your chosen
weapon.
would they allow me to use a huge falchion doing 2d8 critting on an 18-20/x2 damage, with no penalty.
| Parka |
Damage by size category increase is actually easier to pump with natural attacks than it is with weapons, believe it or not.
That said, my experience has been that this is a better way to start an argument than it is to fight. A lot of what pumps weapon size boosting into its final few stages take actions from your combat- and if your games aren't strict dungeon crawls, gigantic weaponry is usually obnoxiously hard to rationalize everywhere. Meaning, some fights happen without it.
| wintersrage |
yes but these feats only affect a specific group of weapons for the lighten weapon and a specific weapon for improved lighten weapon and its always active.
I'm also toying with making weapons larger then medium give great reach for 2 handed weapons, so a large long sword is just a 2 handed sword and a huge long sword would be 10ft reach, and would increase from there. A large dagger would be a 1 handed weapon, a huge dagger would be a 2 handed weapon, and a Gargantuan dagger would be 2 handed with 10ft reach, and would increase from there.
Here is what i figured for 2 handed swords the example I'm giving is for a great sword.
Large great sword 10ft reach no additional threat
Huge great sword 15ft reach no additional threat
Gargantuan great sword 20ft reach no additional threat
Colossal great sword 30ft reach no additional threat
| Parka |
Are you a GM or a player? Your first post sounded like a player, but now it sounds like you are GM, proposing a new rule. (If you are a player, be aware, players proposing new rules can be considered rude or greedy if it isn't fixing a problem for the group as a whole)
Having reach but not treating it as threatened space is really, really weird. Only thing I can think of that does that is the Whip, and that is because it is treated as a ranged weapon that isn't thrown.
Reach is a big deal, and while not threatening takes some of that away, it's still powerful- especially on a martial character.
That, and anything granting 10+ foot reach that isn't able to coil back up somehow is going to cause some problems with picturing what space you occupy (if you don't grow bigger than 5' in the process). If you've ever moved furniture, you should see why.
| wintersrage |
I'm going to be DM'ing the shattered star modules started this Tuesday coming. The thing is i have always found it strange that im a person in pathfinder that's using a huge great sword which would be at least 15ft reach, im basing this on the size of the creature and the fact that something that's 15ft tall wielding an appropriate sized great sword would most likely be 15ft tall as well basing it off the size of the medium version of it.
It just doesn't make sense that if i can wield it and when i swing and its 15ft long it would give me the ability to hit enemies 15ft away no matter my reach.
I was looking to make it if you use a 15ft weapon and not using natural weapons you get the reach of the weapon, not your natural reach.
| Parka |
Someone that's 15 feet tall usually has some reach of their own. I think you might also find that this rule will also play havoc with a lot of the combat assumptions in the modules, especially if the PCs start using it to their advantage.
You are familiar with the Reach quality? Even swinging weapons, such as the Lucerne hammer, don't get to be used on adjacent enemies if they have Reach, and if you picture it for a bit, you can see why. So if you want to have a Medium sized character using a weapon that deals damage as though it were size categories bigger, I would suggest just making an impossibly heavy and robust version that is only awkwardly big, not one that will raise friendly fire questions.
Edit: And on a strictly legalese reading of the Powerful Build trait paraphrased above, Powerful Build doesn't change the extra effort needed to wield the weapon, just removes the penalty involved with attacking with it. So with the feats, you could use a Huge one-handed weapon or a Large two-handed weapon, but you couldn't go Huge two-handed weapon. (Maybe if you were a four-armed race with Powerful Build, but there are better things to do as a martial with four arms!)
| Kazaan |
If you're a Medium creature, you have a 5' natural reach. This means you can use a normal weapon at 5' or a reach weapon at 10'. If you are a Large creature, you have a 10' natural reach. You can use a normal weapon at 5-10' or a reach weapon at 15-20'. If you're a Huge creature, you have 15' natural reach. You can use a normal weapon at 5-15' or a reach weapon at 20-30'.
Regarding over-sized weapons and why they don't give the benefit of reach, it's because of the balance of the weapon. Reach weapons like longspears are balanced so that you can attack at reach. An oversized longsword, however, couldn't be used to grant reach because the balance of a longsword wouldn't allow for it. You don't have enough room on the handle to spread your hands to give enough torque to operate it in that manner. And to preempt those citing the -2 cumulative penalty per size difference, that reflects the relative thickness of the handle more than the weight of the thing. A large longsword is going to have a much thicker handle than a medium greatsword. This is what the -2 reflects; the difficulty of wielding a greatsword with a handle 2x too thick.
| wintersrage |
there is the titan mauler and then the lighten weapon and improved lighten weapon from the The Complete Advanced Feats book. Both the class and the feats allow for a person to use an over sized weapon normally not allowed and reduce the penalty to do so, so combining that with powerful build you could get to use a huge 2 handed sword.
| wintersrage |
Massive Weapons (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0). This ability replaces trap sense.
| Kazaan |
Massive Weapons doesn't allow for the use of oversized weapons normally not allowed. It only reduces the attack penalty for doing so. It's normally a -2 penalty for each size difference and the "handedness" goes up by 1 step. A Medium character using a Large Dagger treats it as a 1-h weapon and a Huge Dagger as a 2-h weapon. You can't use something bigger than a Huge Dagger because that would require a "handedness" of greater than 2-h which isn't permitted. This is the fundamental problem with the Titan Mauler archetype; whereas the designer fully intended it to be able to wield larger weapons, handedness wasn't taken into consideration and, so, appropriate rules for modifying handedness weren't implemented. But with Lighten Weapon reducing the Handedness of a weapon in exchange for a -2 to hit, in conjunction with Massive Weapons reducing the attack penalty for over-sized weapons, you could use a Large Dagger still as a light weapon for only -2 with sufficient levels in TM or with no penalty with improved lighten weapon. You could only go one additional step, though, so whereas you'd cap out at a Huge Dagger as a 2-h weapon without Lighten Weapon, you'd cap out at a Gargantuan Dagger as a 2-h weapon with Lighten Weapon. With Powerful Build treating you as a Large character, you'd cap out at a Colossal light weapon as a 2-h, a Gargantuan 1-h weapon as a 2-h, or a Huge 2-h weapon as a 2-h. You'd also need 6 levels of Titan Mauler for the Huge 2-h weapon, 9 levels for the Gargantuan 1-h weapon, and 12 levels for the Colossal light weapon to cancel out the normal sizing penalties.
So, with all that in mind, having Powerful Build, Greater Lighten Weapon, and 6 levels of Titan Mauler, you could wield a Huge Falchion as a 2-h weapon with no attack penalty. But it'd still only have a 5' reach.
| Parka |
No, because Powerful Build doesn't do anything to the "handedness" aspect either (which I had been calling "effort"). It just negates the attack penalty exactly like Massive Weapons does. In fact, if you have one of those two abilities, you don't need the other- they do the same thing. (Edit: Powerful Build does more in general, but Massive Weapons can negate the penalty for even bigger weapons. Neither affects handedness increases, though.)
So what you COULD do as a Half Giant with Lighten Weapon:
Gargantuan Dagger as a 2 handed weapon
Huge Dagger as a 1 handed weapon
Large Dagger as a light weapon
Huge Longsword as a 2 handed weapon
Large Longsword as a 1 handed weapon
Large Greatsword as a 2 handed weapon
If you really want to use big weapons: Rite Publishing has several PDFs with races that are Large size category or have racial classes that let them grow bigger. Ironborn, Giants, and Minotaurs are some examples. Then find some way to give the character the spells Lead Blades and Enlarge Person, make the weapon out of Alchemical Gold/Platinum (3.5), and give them the feats you point out plus proficiency in the material (3.5).
Also, if you are the DM, it's your game to run however you like. You can toss out the rules you don't like. Have fun at the core of it all.
| Kazaan |
Massive Weapons (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0). This ability replaces trap sense.
Powerful Build: ...A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty.
Massive Weapons describes reducing the attack roll penalty specifically. Powerful Build, on the other hand, removes penalties in general (of which increased handedness would certainly be a penalty of wielding a too-large weapon). And tossing out rules at will goes without saying; but this is a discussion of how it works as-written for a default state.
| wintersrage |
the ting i read is too large for her size, which to me means something she would normally not be able to wield, like a large 2 handed weapon or in the case of the half-giant a huge 2 handed weapon.
here is the ruling for Inappropriately Sized Weapons.
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
To me the wording on titan mauler means you can use a large 2 handed weapon
| Parka |
Massive Weapons (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0). This ability replaces trap sense.
Powerful Build: ...A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty.
Massive Weapons describes reducing the attack roll penalty specifically. Powerful Build, on the other hand, removes penalties in general (of which increased handedness would certainly be a penalty of wielding a too-large weapon). And tossing out rules at will goes without saying; but this is a discussion of how it works as-written for a default state.
I'm pretty sure "penalties in general" is too liberal an interpretation. There is something actually referred to as a penalty by game terminology involved (the -2 to hit). If handedness isn't specifically called out in Powerful Build, while it is in other things like Monkey Grip or Wield Oversized Weapon (feats from the same 3.5 era and the makers of Powerful Build) or Lighten Weapon (here in Pathfinder era), then I'm inclined to think "without penalty" was applying to just that: the penalty.
In the end, there are still plenty of ways to wield ridiculously gigantic weapons with similarly gigantic base damage dice. Powerful Build just isn't the best one- there are tons of other things from 3.5 you can use (like an Alchemical Platinum Fullblade).
| wintersrage |
also this is straight from the Faq
The massive weapon class feature allows her to use oversized weapons with decreased penalty, but does not allow her to use two-handed weapons of that size in one hand.
If I'm reading this right, then the titan mauler class could allow a normal medium sized character use a large greatsword in 2 hands but not 1 hand.
The link to the Faq is here http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9okv
| Parka |
the ting i read is too large for her size, which to me means something she would normally not be able to wield, like a large 2 handed weapon or in the case of the half-giant a huge 2 handed weapon.
...
To me the wording on titan mauler means you can use a large 2 handed weapon
wintersrage, the reason that we're saying that doesn't work is because of the part I'm going to highlight. It's basically the last paragraph.
Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
Not only do you take an attack penalty, you need more hands every time the size category gets bigger. Lighten Weapon takes care of that for one increase. Massive Weapons doesn't do it at all, and I don't think Powerful Build does either, but others disagree.
| Parka |
also this is straight from the Faq
The massive weapon class feature allows her to use oversized weapons with decreased penalty, but does not allow her to use two-handed weapons of that size in one hand.
If I'm reading this right, then the titan mauler class could allow a normal medium sized character use a large greatsword in 2 hands but not 1 hand.
The link to the Faq is here http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9okv
You're not reading that right.
It is essentially telling you the exact opposite. It is about Jotungrip needing weapons to be sized correctly for the character, and then adding what we've been saying- Massive Weapons doesn't change the number of hands you need to wield a weapon.
| wintersrage |
also if the class could only ever get rid of -4 for Inappropriately Sized then whats the point of having it reduce the penalty by -6 over the class unless you could use a larger then normally allowed weapon. It just wouldn't make sense to make a variant class in a book that came out after the core book that, that gets ride of -6 penalty when the rules in the core book only allow for -4, unless the class can brake the rules because of the class.
Remember there is always an exception, the general rules and then the specifics of classes.
| wintersrage |
im going to post it again with the question and the full answer this time, and im sure it says that it does.
Unless I'm miss reading it, it says no for jotungrip, and yes for massive weapon.
Barbarian--Titan Mauler: Does the Jotungrip class feature (page 30) allow the Titan Mauler to use oversized weapons?
No. Jotungrip allows the titan mauler to use two-handed melee weapons in one hand, but only if the weapon is appropriately sized for the character. The massive weapon class feature allows her to use oversized weapons with decreased penalty, but does not allow her to use two-handed weapons of that size in one hand.
| Parka |
Powerful Build, in 3.5, was F.A.Q.'d to clarify that the increase in Handedness is a form of Penalty.
That said the wording, if they were actually going off of 3.5's, should have been this allows the Half-Giant to wield weapons as if they were one size larger.
Looking at the 3.5 FAQ from Wizards, it does do that. Though it also states that effects like Powerful Build and Monkey Grip never stack.
also if the class could only ever get rid of -4 for Inappropriately Sized then whats the point of having it reduce the penalty by -6 over the class unless you could use a larger then normally allowed weapon. It just wouldn't make sense to make a variant class in a book that came out after the core book that, that gets ride of -6 penalty when the rules in the core book only allow for -4, unless the class can brake the rules because of the class.
Remember there is always an exception, the general rules and then the specifics of classes.
I'm not really trying to argue here, this is fun for me.
Anyway, the reason Massive Weapons reduces more than just -2 for inappropriately sized weapons is because you can wield Huge weapons- they just have to be the smaller categories of weapons (Light weapons, like daggers). Every difference between your actual size and the size the weapon was made for is another -2, as well as pushing the weapon category into needing more hands.
That is what is really limiting what weapons you can wield- it isn't the penalties to attack. You could just take it- Two Weapon fighters do that all the time. If the weapon needs more hands than you have to wield, that keeps you from using the weapon at all, and that is what you need special abilities to fix.
| Azaelas Fayth |
Closest thing I could find. I actually have my own houserule on them.
It was Errata sorry. They changed the Wording of Powerful Build.
| wintersrage |
no matter what way you loo at it, the way the rule reads, only a -4 will ever be applies.
Also if the only reason the -2 is being applied is because of the size of the hilt and how much bigger it is and how much harder it is to get your hands around then, a normal 2 handed weapon has a hilt sized for a medium creature making the hilt easy for him to wield, increasing the size of the weapon would be the same as increasing the size of a light or 1 handed weapon, it increases the hilt size and blade size as well, making the weapon harder to use as the hilt it bigger and harder for you get to your hands around.
| Kazaan |
The class allows for a -6 because that's the way the designer wrote and intended it at first. But when it got to the lead rules editing, they changed what he wrote because they felt it was too long, overpowered, felt like flexing their editorial muscles, whatever. And adding in a clause that says it caps out at -4 would be adding words, not making it more word-efficient. So even if it goes theoretically up to -6, you still only benefit from -4 in the current metagame, discounting 3rd party content like Lighten Weapon and Powerful Build. That's all it means; nothing more and nothing less.
| kyrt-ryder |
You might want to read lighten weapon a little more closely.
The exact wording isn't "this allows you to wield a weapon one size larger than normal" like powerful build is. The exact wording explicitly reduces the amount of effort required to wield a weapon, allowing you to wield it as though it were one size smaller than it is.
The two do stack. Powerful Build enables you to wield weapons one size larger, and Lighten Weapon allows you to treat a weapon as one size smaller than they are for purpose of wielding.
| wintersrage |
the example under lighten weapon states
Example: Rogar the Human Fighter takes Lighten Weapon and chooses greatsword. He can now use a Medium sized Greatsword in one hand with a -2 to hit and adding 1 x Strength bonus to damage. He can also wield a
Large sized Greatsword in two hands with a -2 to hit and adding 1.5 x Strength bonus to damage.
so if the example explicitly stats that you can wield a large greatsword and powerful build allows you to do the same, and if you have both you could use a huge greatsword and 1 improves the other.
also This allows you to wield a weapon 1 size category larger as if it were your own size, use a two-handed weapon in one hand, or a one-handed as a light weapons.
also powerful build states you count as large if doing so is advantages for you.
Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.
Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for a Combat Maneuver Bonus or Combat Maneuver Defense (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.
A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefts of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.
he counts a large for powerful build, and lighten weapon makes the weapon count as 1 size category lighter, they are not the same thing so there for they stack.
so a half-giant counts as large for his weapon and lighten weapon makes it so a weapon 1 size category larger counts as large, and huge comes after large.
| kyrt-ryder |
They do, but a lot of DMs (and sometimes Paizo's developers) like to try to interpret this kind of thing so it doesn't work. There's some kind of horrid fear on these boards of a relevant damage increase being broken as hell.
Lighten Weapon is essentially a more limited version of 3.5's Monkey Grip, which was a bad feat because the penalty lowered your expected damage more than the size increase yielded. And then you get taxed again for the even MORE limited Improved Lighten Weapon to ditch the penalty.
If you're willing to eat that cost to get your bigger weapon (either the -2 penalty or the extra feat in the chain) you've totally paid for the privilege.
| Azten |
"This allows you to weild a weapon one size larger as if it were your own size, a two-handed weapon in one hand, or a one-handed weapon as light."
Please notice the bolded part of the sentence from Lighten Weapon. Half-Giants, no matter what Powerful Build does, are still medium sized humanoids. What's one size category bigger than Medium? Large. What does Lighten Weapon allow Medium creatures to do? Use Large two-handed weapons as if it were a Medium-sized weapon. What does powerful Build do? Allow Half-Giants to use Large Weapons.
Powerful Build doesn't change a Half-Giant's size for feats. Only Combat Manuvers/Defense, special attacks, and the ability to use weapons as if he were one size category larger. It doesn't affect he actual size, so he cannot use Huge weapons with Lighten Weapon.
EDIT: This is how I am reading it. This is how I would/will rule it in any of my games. If I have offended someone by doing so... well, that was not my intent.
| wintersrage |
lighten weapon makes the weapons count as 1 size category smaller, and powerful build makes the giant makes you count as 1 size category larger, the example under lighten weapon even stats that you can wield a large weapon, what they should have stated to make it more clear is that you can wield a weapon 1 size category larger then your size would allow, and for half giants they can wield large weapons normally with no penalty, Azten.
| Azten |
Well, either the creators of Advanced Feats(a wonderful series of products) or Jeremey from Dreamscarred Press would do the trick. A Paizo employee(which I guess is what you wanted, wintersage, as a GM from Pathfinder could be anyone on these boards. Myself for example) wouldn't be much help on a feat/race combo they had no hand in.
I would also like to point out, again it seems, that it is not a Half-Giant's size that allows them to wield Large weapons, but a racial ability.