So I'm reading this series and it's got some very D&D inspired elements it seems (in the way the spells work and how some of the races and "classes" are portrayed), called the Half Orcs trilogy.
There's a very interesting Paladin in there I felt a need to build to see if he'd be at all as effective as he is in the series (though I suspect not).
Lawful Good Male Human Paladin (Sacred Shield) 10
AC: 31 (33 vs Evil Outsiders, 36 vs Bastion target)
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +10, Will +11
Str: 22 (level up bonuses)
Dex: 16 (+2 Human)
Con: 12
Int: 7
Wis: 12
Cha: 16
Traits: Reactionary (+2 Initiative), one other trait
Attacks:
+2 Heavy Mace +18/+13 (1d8+8, 20/x2), Heavy Shield +17/+12 (1d6+7, 20/x2)
OR Mace and Shield +14/+13/+9/+8
Feats:
1.) Improved Shield Bash
Bonus: Two-Weapon Fighting
3.) Shield Focus
5.) Missile Shield
7.) Shield Slam
9.) Power Attack (-3/+6)
Skills:
Perception +14
Diplomacy +16
Class Abilities: Bastion of Good 4/day, Detect Evil, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands +5d6 8/day, Holy Shield, Divine Bond +2, Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Mercy (Sickened, Staggered, Nauseated), Aura of Resolve
Gear: +2 Mithral Full Plate (14,500), +3 Bashing Heavy Mithral Shield (17k), +2 Heavy Mace (8k), +4 Belt of Giant's Strength (16k), +2 Headband of Alluring Charisma (4k), +1 Ring of Protection (2k)
500 gold available
Eh. Looks like it might be fun to play for a while, but not overly effective. Would probably get a lot better at 11 when I can grab Shield Master and get that extra +3 enhancement to attack/damage and drop the TWF-ing penalty for teh shield attacks, which'd make Power Attack an actually viable option.
Bashing Buzz laughs at your puny bashing skills... Swift-action healing and good Will saves are for wussies! ^^
All joking aside... It's kinda funny that Rangers are so much better at sword & board builds than Fighters and Paladins...
Being able to ignore pre-reqs is cool, yo.
And it had to be a Pally, he's explicitly called a Paladin and had holy powers in the book.
I kinda want to build the main character too later. He's a TWF-ing Barbarian, but I have no clue what his Rage Powers would be.
Definitely not Spell Sunder/Beast Totem, though he may have Superstition since his saves are pretty gudt.
You can't use LoH with a heavy shield?
Heh... I was just joking about the fact that Shield & Board, a combat style typically associated to Fighters and Paladins is done so much better by Rangers, a class who is usually focused on TWF, archery or switch-hitting. To the point where a shield-focused character (such as Bashing Buzz) can only be effectively built using the Ranger class.
This, IMO, may very well be the greatest evidence of how f$~+ed up feat chains are. Look at the huge amount of prerequisites for the shield bashing feats and how late said feats become available...
Jerico still has the main advantages of Paladins, of course... Social skills, awesome saves and insane amounts of healing.
Oh, shield master at level 6 is great but the fighter have its tricks too, so much better is an exageration :P.
Fighters can compete if they choose to fight with Weapon & Shield, but they are considerably less effective at using only their shield, like Buzz does.
You can't use LoH with a heavy shield?Not if you have the heavy mace in the other (the LoH requires you a free hand if I reacall correctly)
That's true... Although JJ once said it's okay to allow Paladins to swift-action heal themselves (but not other characters) even when they are wielding weapon & shield, instead of forcing the player to juggle their weapons (using weapon chords, for example), and IME, most GMs agree.
Here's Bashing Bill, the copycat brother of Bashing Buzz.
Male Half-Elf Fighter 10
NG Medium Humanoid (elf, human)
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 29, touch 13, flat-footed 27 (+11 armor, +4 shield, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 89 (10d10+30)
Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +11 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities bravery +3; Immune magic sleep; Resist elven immunities
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +24/+16 (2d6+26/19-20/x2) and
. . Heavy Shield Bash +23/+15 (1d4+19/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (bows +3, close +4)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +17; CMD 30 (34 vs. Disarm, 34 vs. Sunder)
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Furious Focus, Greater Weapon Focus (Shield, Heavy), Improved Critical (Shield, Heavy), Improved Shield Bash, Iron Will, Power Attack -3/+6, Shield Slam, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Shield, Heavy), Weapon Specialization (Shield, Heavy)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13, Perception +12; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven
SQ elf blood
Other Gear +2 Full plate, +1 Throwing Heavy steel shield, +2 Bashing, Shield Spikes Adamantine Heavy steel s, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of giant strength +4, Cloak of resistance +3, Feather step slippers, Gloves of dueling, Ring of protection +1, 100 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elven and human for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Feather step slippers Ignore difficult terrain as though affected by feather step.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Shield Slam Shield Bash attack gives a free bull rush on a hit.
Weapon Training (Bows) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Close) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
This build is pretty much a Fighter version of Bashing Buzz. They have basically the same gear and weapons, except for the items that don't make sense (e.g.: Why would Bill buy a Pearl of Power?).
Offense: Bill has considerably higher DPR. The difference is not as big as I thought it'd be, though. That's mostly because he's basically wielding a non-masterwork mundane weapon. And I'm not sure how to calculate Bashing Finish's effect on DPR.
Technically, Bill doesn't have a magic weapon. Why? Because without Shield Master, your shield enhancements don't count as weapon enhancements. That means 2-handed shield Fighters go 11 levels without affecting incorporeal creatures or bypassing the always common DR X/magic... Though if I were the GM, I'd allow it to at count as a magical weapon and affect incorporeal creatures, the character would simply not benefit from the numerical bonuses. Bill can solve that problem next level, but he'll have to wait yet another level for Bashing Finish. By then, Buzz will have 2~3 daily uses of Instant Enemy, though.
I think Bill's DPR is still higher, even if we factor in Bashing Finish, so I'm giving this point to him. Besides, he has slightly better Initiative as well...
Defense: Bill's AC is considerably higher, of course. Not too much of an advantage for this particular build, IMO. Buzz' AC is already pretty high and he can increase it by +4 with Barkskin. Still, let's give credit where credit is due, Bill does win this one.
(Note that I didn't take any AC boosting feat with any of them. My reasons for this are:
A- These builds tend to naturally raise their AC without any extra investment, since boosting their weapons also means boosting their AC.
and
B- These characters will have enough trouble convincing enemies to target them. After all, it's very possible that enemies will see them as unarmed warriors, and therefore, not that much of a threat. (Although Spiked Shields can change that)
Ranged Combat: Bill wins. Weapon Training + Gloves of Dueling give him a huge advantage. Buzz, OTOH, has to rely on spells whenever he wants to impress anyone with his archery skills.)
Skills: Buzz wins. FLAWLESS VICTORY.
Out-of-Combat Utility: Buzz wins again. FATALITY. Next.
Mobility: Bill can move at full speed in his full plate, while Buzz is limited to 20ft movement speed. That said, Buzz is likely to buy a Mithral armor sooner or later, but even if he doesn't, Longstrider increases his speed by 10ft, and it lasts 9h! Bill wins here. But again, just barely... And in the next few levels, I'm sure Buzz will take this one too, thanks to mithral armor and Longstrider. Not to mention he has Woodland Stride as a (very) minor bonus.
Saves: Buzz Wins. Better Fort, (much) better Reflex (and Evasion) and better Will.
Bill had to sacrifice his Headband of Inspired Wisdom and Pale Green Ioun Stones to buy a nice pair of Gloves of Dueling. He also couldn't afford to get a higher Wisdom score because he needs Dex 15 to qualify for TWF, and he needs TWF to qualify for a bunch of shield feats, so even with Iron Will, his bonus to Will saves is still lower than Buzz'. I honestly didn't expect that. Bill can eventually have equal Fort and a slightly higher Will save (+1 over Buzz), depending on what items he buys, but not yet.
Unusual Offense: Bill has better CMB. Buzz has spells and FE. No clear advantage to anyone, IMHO. Bill's advantage is more consistent, while Buzz' advantage is more versatile.
Unusual Defenses: I don't think any of them has anything unusual in their builds, but Buzz has access to spells such as Resist Energy, Delay Poison, Bears Endurance and, eventually, Freedom of Movement, so I'd give this one to Buzz.
Plan B: Bill is generally better with bows. Bill is slightly better at everything else (thanks to spells, FE and F.Terrain). I still don't know how to incorporate Bashing Finish into DPR calculations. So, uh... Point to Bill because he's better with bows and all weapons that belong to the "Close Weapons" weapon group.
------------------
Winner: Buzz, The Ranger.
IMHO, Buzz is a considerably more effective than Bill. A little more damage is simply not enough of an advantage, and as I said before, the difference in AC is not that much of an advantage in this particular build (especially when Barkskin cancels that advantage for 90min per casting, although I admit that might not be the case at higher levels).
Although I suppose I might be biased, so feel free to share your opinion, Nicos.
I think I'll try my hand at a Sylph Archer Barbarian Build
CG Medium Outsider (Native)
Initiative:+5 Senses:+18 Darkvision 60ft.
Defense
AC:28 (30 against ranged attacks) Touch:19(24) Flat-Footed:23
DR 6/- against lethal Damage and DR 12/- against non-lethal damage
Under a Constant Endure Elements Effect
Resist 4 Fire Damage
HP:113
Fort:+14(+19) Reflex:+13(+18) Will:+11(+16)
Offense
Speed:35 ft.
Melee:+2 Longsword +16/+11/+6 (1d8+4/19-20/x2)
+2 Longsword w/ Rage +19/+14/+9 (1d8+7/19-20/x2)
+2 Longsword w/ Rage and Witch Hunter +19/+14/+9 (1d8+11/19-20/x2)
+1 Mithral Morningstar +15/+10/+5 (1d8+3/20/x2)
+1 Mithral Morningstar w/ Rage +18/+13/+8 (1d8+6/20/x2)
+1 Mithral Morningstar w/ Rage and Witch Hunter +18/+13/+8 (1d8+10/20/x2)
Range: +3 Composite 5 Longbow +20/+15/+10 (1d8+5/20/x3)
+3 Composite 5 Longbow w/ Point Blank Shot +21/+16/+11 (1d8+6/20/x3)
+3 Composite 5 longbow w/ PBS and Rapid Shot +19/+19/+16/+11 (1d8+6/20/x3)
+3 Composite 5 Longbow w/ Rage, PBS, RS, and Deadly Aim +19/+19/+16/+11
(1d8+17/20/x3)
+3 Composite 5 Longbow w/ Rage PBS, RS, DA, and Witch Hunter +19/+19/+16/+11 (1d8+21/20/x3)
Special Attacks: Cluster Shot: Roll all damage before applying DR.
Manyshot: Roll two damage dice on the first attack.
Rage: 28 rounds/day
Statistics
Str:14(20) Dex:20 Con:14 Int:10 Wis:16 Cha:10
BAB:+12/+7/+2 CMB:+14(+17) CMD:19(22)
Feats:Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Cluster Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot
Rage Powers:Reckless Abandon, Lesser Beast Totem, Beast Totem, Superstition, Witch Hunter, and Ghost Rager
Skills:Acrobatics +20, Perception +18, Stealth +20, Diplomacy +15, Sense Motive +18, and Knowledge (Local) +15
SQ:Crowd Control (+1 bonus to attack and +1 bonus to AC while adjacent to two or more enemies), Breezed Kissed, Like the Wind, Feather Fall 1/day
Traits:Suspicious and Slippery (Flower Network)
Combat Gear:+3 Composite 5 Longbow, +3 Mithral Chainmail Shirt, +4 Cloak of Resistance, +2 Amulet of Natural Armor, +2 Ring of Resistance, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, Cracked Pale Green Prism Ious Stone, +2 Belt of Mighty Constitution, +2 Headband of Wisdom, +2 Longsword, +1 Mithral Morningstar
The thing is, you can enchant the shield as a shield and the speikd shield as a weapon. Bill should have been enchanted his shield also as a weapon cause it just cost 2300 gp.
I do not know, that is not the way I would build the bashing fighter, I do not like to have 10 in int and 10 in wis.
Both of them have the same weapons, gear (with the exception of a few items, such as Pearls of Power and Gloves of Dueling, since those don't make much sense for the other character), race and attributes because those are not class specific.
Whatever one character can do with those, the other can do the same. Bill has less magic gear because Gloves of Dueling cost so much. But with the exception of "class specific" items, the gear itself doesn't matter, as both can buy the exactly same stuff.
Buying a Wayfinder + Clear Spindle Ioun Stone instead of a Cloak of Resistance +3 doesn't make any difference for comparing these builds, since both of them can buy these items and both of them get the exact same benefits.
Attributes only matter in the fact that Bill needs Dex 15, which means he has to lower another attribute score. I suppose Bill could have lowered his Cha score to 7 and increased his Wis or Int score, but then again, so could Buzz.
The reason I gave them the same weapons, gear, race and attributes (mostly) is just because it makes for an easier and fairer comparison. It's the same reason I compared Buzz to Bill instead of your 2-Handed Shield Fighter build.
The reason I gave them the same weapons, gear, race and attributes (mostly) is just because it makes for an easier and fairer comparison. It's the same reason I compared Buzz to Bill instead of your 2-Handed Shield Fighter build.Maybe, but then is not a fair comparision if the fighter is just taking bad decisions. The ranger add his enachemnet shield to the attack, the fighter do not. There is no reason for the fighter to not have a +1 shield spikes.
Bill does have a +2 Bashing shield with shield spikes. The only problem is that adding enhancements to shield spikes does not benefit his shield bash.
Bill could use his shield spike instead of his shield, but oddly enough, he wouldn't benefit from any feat that affects "heavy shield" or "shield bash" (just like enhancements for your armor or gauntlet don't affect your armor spikes).Bill would effectively be using "weapon + shield" instead of "shield only".
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
So it's either an weapon or a shield. The way I see it, each enhancements only work 1 way.
If he boosts the "weapon side" of the shield, he is basically using weapon + shield.If he doesn't, he needs Shield Master, which he can only take next level.
I havenever tough that way, but In any case you can enchant the shield a a weapon and enchant the shiel as a shield.
For example a +2 shield (shield) that at the same time is a +1 shield (weapon), cost 6,400.
I agree with you. But I still consider it "weapon + shield" rather than just shield, it just happens that the weapon is part of the shield, like armor spikes are part of armor. Bill is still paying twice for his enhancements (once for shield as a weapon and again for shield as a shield). But at least Bill gets to use his feats.
Anyway, I suppose Bill could add a weapon enhancement for his shield instead of, say, buying Feather Step Slippers. I don't think it'll make much of a difference, though. Bill already has higher DPR.
Why bill do not have skill focus or dual mind?
He has Dual Mind, actually, but HL doesn't show it in the stat block...
Like I said, I don't think higher AC is much of an advantage for this particular build. as it tends to grow naturally and it's usually pretty high anyway, so I focused on offense.
Personally, I'd not take GWF, as I think it's too high a investment and way too boring, but most people seem to agree it's a Fighter "must have".
I'm not familiar with Trench Fighter archetype, so I gotta check it out first.
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I haven't put the time into fleshing this out, but I was thinking of making Blanca. He'd be a half orc (for the green skin with orange hair). 2 levels of white haired witch and the rest alchemist. Feral mutagen. So he claws, bites and head bangs you to death. Haven't quite figured out how to get the electrocuting in there yet...
I'd make Blanka a Half-Orc Barbarian. He could use Rage Powers and/or AoMF to deal elemental damage.
I don't understand why Spring Attacking fighters aren't more popular. I have one and it's a thing of beauty with a reach weapon.
I don't understand why Spring Attacking fighters aren't more popular. I have one and it's a thing of beauty with a reach weapon.
Does it kick ass? Yes? Then why not share your build? :)
Actually, I did. It's not optimized, but it's REALLY fun to play. Page 10 - Azgod. He needs more movement. That's his biggest weakness. I should also swap out his Javelins for a Composite bow. But for five levels he's been a wrecker.
Tactics are simple: One big hit that doesn't miss. He keeps the bad guy at 10' and uses Spring Attack to reposition. It's simple. It's effective.
Ah, Azgod... I did read that build. I forgot it had Spring Attack... And that it was yours... (Sorry, Havoq)
No problem. You're really clever with your builds. I'd love to see you do a Spring Fighter build. And I'm not kidding, they ARE fun to play.
I never inteneded to level him past level 6, so I dumped three stats. Yes, I know that is a big no, no. But I could see how with the correct point buy array that you could also have Whirl Wind + Lunge for even more fun.
With a +1 Weapon -- and no other items, but it gets the point across.
Whirlwind Fighter
Human Fighter (Two-Handed Fighter) 7
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10 (+1 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 65 (7d10+19)
Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +2
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Lucerne hammer +14/+9 (1d12+9/x2)
Special Attacks backswing, overhand chop, shattering strike +2, weapon training abilities (pole arms +1)
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Statistics
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Str 20, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +12 (+14 Sundering); CMD 24 (26 vs. Sunder)
Feats Combat Expertise +/-2, Combat Reflexes (2 AoO/round), Dodge, Furious Focus, Lunge, Mobility,
Power Attack -2/+4, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack
Traits Defender of the Society, Lessons of Chaldira (1/day)
Skills
Languages Common, Orc
Other Gear +1 Lucerne hammer, 150 GP
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Special Abilities
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Backswing (Ex) Attacks after the first in a full attack receive 2x STR bonus.
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (2 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Defender of the Society +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each
turn.
Lessons of Chaldira (1/day) Your studies of Chaldira Zuzaristan's exploits have given you a knack for
avoiding trouble. Once per day, when you fail a saving throw, you can reroll the saving throw. You must
take the second result even if it is worse.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Overhand Chop (Ex) Single attacks with two-handed weapons receive double STR bonus.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Shattering Strike +2 (Ex) +2 Sunder and damage vs. objects.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Weapon Training (Pole Arms) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Pole Arms
Whirlwind Attack Instead of making a full attack, you attack all foes in reach.
1. Power Attack, Furious Focus, Dodge
2. Mobility
3. Combat Expertise
4. Spring Attack!
5. Whirlwind Attack!
6. Lung!
7. Combat Reflexes!
8-12. Anything you want. Weapon Focus, Iron Will
You'll have 4 or 5 skills/level and some great abilities.
Whirlwind Attack doesn't benefit from Power Attack or Furious Focus but you're going to get more than enough benefit from it to justify it it taking it at level one.
Spring Attack is great when you can't full attack. Huge construct with reach keeping everyone back? No problem - just use Spring Attack and wade in.
Your Whirlwind attack goes like this:
With a REACH weapon equiped,
A). Start your Whirlwind attack hitting all targets at 10`
B). Lunge for any you can reach at 15`
C). 5-foot step and Lung/Reach for any that you still haven't attacked.
If you're okay with cheese, you can release one hand on the reach weapon and strike everything within 5-feet as well with a spiked gauntlet.
Okay, can't do the cheese. That's been FAQ'd out.
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qv3
Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Edit: Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
Been a fun read, thanks guys! Makes me want to finish my Lore Warden/Swordlord(PrC)/Dualist now. Just need to figure out the feats. He was for a custom Carrion Crown Campaign, so would max at lvl 16 or 17.
So with such low AC, I'll probably get hit pretty often
Wayfinder + Vibrant Purple Prism (Ioun Stone)cracked + UMD.
...cheap, cheap. Just carry two Wands of Shield in case you bork a roll.Using the favored class bonus of +12 on LoH is nice, but it's "self only". Still very nice, but --not-- as nice as it would be if it worked on everyone.
Been a fun read, thanks guys! Makes me want to finish my Lore Warden/Swordlord(PrC)/Dualist now. Just need to figure out the feats. He was for a custom Carrion Crown Campaign, so would max at lvl 16 or 17.When you finish him please post the build, I always wnated to see an aldori sworlord
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