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Knocking him prone effectively ends his move action. Once you stop moving, your move action ends. Falling is stopping your move action. He can of course chew a standard action as a move action to stand up.
Of course that provokes another AoO which you can use for another trip...
Wrong, you can't trip lock someone. The attack of opportunity is provoked before the action completes. Just as moving out of the threatened square provokes before the move action completes, so does getting up. That means, when he provokes for standing, it provokes before he completes standing. Since you can't trip a prone opponent, all you can do is make a normal attack (or any non-trip manuever that is valid on an AoO).
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Wrong, you can't trip lock someone. The attack of opportunity is provoked before the action completes. Just as moving out of the threatened square provokes before the move action completes, so does getting up. That means, when he provokes for standing, it provokes before he completes standing. Since you can't trip a prone opponent, all you can do is make a normal attack (or any non-trip manuever that is valid on an AoO).Knocking him prone effectively ends his move action. Once you stop moving, your move action ends. Falling is stopping your move action. He can of course chew a standard action as a move action to stand up.
Of course that provokes another AoO which you can use for another trip...
Ah, touche, I forgot about that.
No,
Once the action is announced, any AoO's are handled before the action is resolved. In this case, the dev's have explicitly spelled out this in an FAQ.
Trip: When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?
No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up.—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10 Back to Top
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Wrong, you can't trip lock someone. The attack of opportunity is provoked before the action completes. Just as moving out of the threatened square provokes before the move action completes, so does getting up. That means, when he provokes for standing, it provokes before he completes standing. Since you can't trip a prone opponent, all you can do is make a normal attack (or any non-trip manuever that is valid on an AoO).The timing of the AoO is indeed executed before the move action is resolved (whether standing up from prone or moving out of a threatened square).
But the action has already been announced; is the action thereby committed (and lost if it can't be completed)?
In other words is there a difference between announcing and resolving?
No, he makes a valid point which I forgot.
Basically, it works like this:
I announce I am standing up, provoking an AoO
You resolve the AoO before my action resolves
Since I have yet to stand up, you cannot trip me because I am still prone. (Although this does mean you still get the benefits to your attack from me being prone)
After your AoO, my action to stand up resolves.
assuming you can still stand up, of course... boy i glad i saw that earlier today... >.> hated wolves in 3.5...
You have 3 actions in a round...
Move: moved away provoking attack
- The attack knocked you down.
Standard: Stand up.
-again provoking, but you get up.
Swift: if you have something to do
Free: Cussing out person who tripped you.
edit:
unless you have something that lets you stand up (or kip up) as something faster than a move.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I'm also not sure that tripping evaporates someone's move action if used before they move at all. It would certainly be plausible to interpret it the same way as attacks/full attacks. If you declare a full attack and drop your foe on the first hit, you can abort to single attack + move. If a person declared a move and was tripped before they even went 5 feet, I would have no problem allowing them to abort to some other move-equivalent action such as standing up. The target still hasn't actually moved anywhere, and PF isn't a system where you declare actions and are stuck with them no matter what.
It negates the move action, because, again, you can take the AoO at any point in the action when it comes to moving through threatened squares.
Example...
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#123B
#4A5#
#678#
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A = You
B = Enemy
Let us say that B moves through spaces 3, 2, and 1, making an acrobatics check to avoid AoO, but failing. A (You) has the choice of where to take the attack of opportunity at any point along his movement in your threatened area. For example, you can take it when he is in 2, after he's moved 10 feet. Or you can take it in 3 after he's moved 5 feet, or in 1 after he's moved 15 feet. No matter which way you take it, he's already started his movement, and you end his movement, since anything that ends your movement ends your move action.
By the same token, if an enemy had started in 8, let's say, and ran away without making a withdraw action (couldn't for some reason), then you only have the choice of making the AoO when he leaves 8. You get the AoO when he leaves the threatened square, but the AoO is triggered before the action completes, which means he's moved 5 feet (from 8 to #), but you get to trip him before he completes that movement. Because he moved 5 ft, his move action is over if the trip succeeds.
The anti-trip lock ruling works because the trip attempt on a prone character doesn't actually prevent his moving, and therefore doesn't interrupt his move action because you can't trip a prone character.
I never disagree'd with you.
I disagree'd with Elamdri when he said you can trip someone who's already prone when they stand up.
I'm also not sure that tripping evaporates someone's move action if used before they move at all. It would certainly be plausible to interpret it the same way as attacks/full attacks. If you declare a full attack and drop your foe on the first hit, you can abort to single attack + move. If a person declared a move and was tripped before they even went 5 feet, I would have no problem allowing them to abort to some other move-equivalent action such as standing up. The target still hasn't actually moved anywhere, and PF isn't a system where you declare actions and are stuck with them no matter what.
The problem here is that without him moving there would have been no AoO. As there was an AoO (which tripped him) he can't go back and say that he wasn't really moving.
The move trip situation is better compared to spellcasting while threatened. The caster announces that he wants to cast. The melee threatening gets an AoO and hits. Now the caster can't change his mind and say "now that you hit me I do something else instead." No, he's locked into trying to cast and has to make his concentration check or lose his spell and the action used to cast it. He startet to try and cast then was interrupted.
Same with the move. He startet to try and move, was interrupted and that used up his action.
Edit: And even with full attack/standard attack, there are situations in PF where you ARE locked into doing what you're doing. Like making a full attack with a bow using manyshot.
You only get the additional arrow when you make a full attack. If those two arrows kill the target you can't go back and say "it was s standard attack, now I move" because if it had been a standard attack you would not have been able to shoot two arrows.
I don't think there is a specific sentence in any of the rulebooks to point to, but only because there doesn't need to be. In order to provoke the attack of opportunity, you had to move. You were slammed to the ground when you tried, but you've still used up that action.
Let me see if I can find something that talks about interrupts, but regular old common sense ought to solve this one for you. You were moving, and you failed at it just the same as if you missed an attack. You still tried, your action is gone.
I've got a similar question to this situation with the following scenario given:
##E##
##*##
#B*##
##*##
##*##
##A## (imagine these lines being directly under the previous lines)
Player A does a charge against enemy E. As of the charge way (*) he provokes an AoO from Enemy B. As I got the wording of the rules right now, B may trip A.
Question 1: Does B end both of A's actions? A's move action is definitely ended upon a successful trip from B. Would A still be able to attack B or is A's standard action also disrupted by the trip due to being combined with the move action?
Question 2: Does B himself provoke an AoO from A if B doesn't have improved trip?
Moshi:
no, but with the standing up, he was using a move action, but not moving.
moving past (or trying, rather) is a move action that provokes... similar to casting a spell. You quoting part of a FAQ, the rest of that, was talking about chain trips... Tripping someone that tried to stand up, keeping them prone.
Thanks for the quick and helpful answer! I definitely got the part with the chain-tripping - my second question was aiming at a potential counteract from A (like tripping B with an AoO and not getting tripped himself) which has rather nothing to do with chain-tripping itself but with interrupting a move action through trip.
Is like casting a spell and you get smacked. you can't at that point take back the cast.
I guess if you had something that let you move faster than a crawl (5' full-round) you could continue moving. I guess I could see because of that, you could still move, you would just have to not have done anything else, you would provoke during that 5' and you would still be prone (-4 AC v melee, +4 v ranged)
sorry, didnt realize you snipe posted before mine XD...
a charge is a special kind of action, that takes a full round, so seems like he's done.
and without the improved trip, he would provoke, and take a penalty to his trip attempt (potentially getting tripped in return.
Ah yea, was wondering :D that's exactly what I meant, thank you for the answer :)
tripping without reach/feat is a little dangerous because of that penalty to the attempt after the AoO
RAW... i think yes, unless something else prevented (greater trip causing more AoO, out of usable movement, etc) would not provoke a second AoO from tripper, since same move...
I would be tempted, I think... to call for acro, maybe acro vs 10+BAB+str/dex or 10+BAB+damage, possibly bonus/pen based on how strong of a trip check.
reducing/increasing speed by +5 in case of theatrics for being tripped.
'fast crawl: instead of being tripped, she turned it into a roll still ending prone, still taking pen of being prone/AoO additional effects...
^^ successful, of course, a botched attempt the other way...
'kip up: does a little tumble thing, still taking all effects, but theatrics. on fail, maybe stumble a little losing a little speed.
make it count for a tumble as far as increasing DC's
If you have Monkey Style, you can stand up as a swift action that doesn't provoke with an Acrobatics 20. So, monkey style opponent is tripped, makes an acrobatics roll, and continues on with their movement because they go down and roll right back to their feet and keep going without stopping.
I didn't read the entire thread, so forgive me if this has been mentioned. The opponent can continue their move action as a crawl.
An AoO interrupts but does not necessarily prevent the triggering action. Consider what happens without trip:
1) Opponent declares his move and begins to move.
2) Since you threaten, he triggers an AoO.
3) You take the AoO and hit.
4) Opponent continues their move action (unless they are dead, they still have their full move action*).
*) Note that, all they can do with this move action is continue their move. Since they already declared and began their move (that's what triggered the AoO in the first place), they can't just change their mind and use the move action to perform a different move equivalent action. Once the AoO is triggered, the action that triggered it (moving) has begun...sort of by definition. Also, of course they don't have to continue their move. They could just abort their move action and use a standard/swift to stand or attack from where they are.
Okay. What changes when you factor in trip? Well, if you succeeded in landing it, the opponent is face first on the floor, and we pick up at step (4) above.
1) to 3) Same as above except you chose to trip instead of attack during step (3).
4) Opponent may continue their move action...only they are prone so the only option they have left to do so is to crawl*. If they choose to continue their move action by crawling, they may move 5 feet. They're still prone at the end of that movement, and still have their standard and swift actions remaining. If they have the Rogue Crawl rogue talent or the Fast crawl feat, they may move up to half their speed instead of 5 feet, OR they may abort their move and take a 5 foot step while prone (again, leaving them with a standard and a swift action...and of course they may not move again if they're able since they took a 5 foot step).
*) Note that as above, they don't have to crawl, they could just stop their move action and use their standard/swift to stand or attack from prone where they are if they want to.
Note you can take a free/swift action at any time during your turn, even while you are taking other types of actions. Ergo, if you have a feat that let's you stand up as a free/swift action (like Monkey Style), then you can perform that in the middle of a move, standard, or full action.
If you couldn't perform a free action as part of another action, archers couldn't load their bows, since that's a free action. :)
I'm building a gunslinger who has Monkey style. Find some cover, go prone (free action). Next round, use Monkey style to stand as a swift action, full attack, go prone again. Only visible and attackable while you're firing, so enemies have to close or they have to ready an action to shoot you when you stand up (limiting them to one ranged attack per round, while you get full attacks). :)
MTCityHunter has it mostly right. I disagree with being able to salvage the tripped move by crawling 5', as mentioned in the second #4. The character whose move action was interrupted has some amount of movement remaining, but cannot use the standard crawl 5' method. However, if that character had Rogue Crawl for instance, then that character can trade remaining movement for crawl movement.
I had a much longer post before I decided to shorten it, so here's the full thing, if anyone is interested, as I don't want to waste that effort :P.
2. Either immediately, or somewhere along that path (say, the character began not near an enemy, and then tries to move past one), the character provokes, and the enemy takes its, and succeeds on the trip. Even if no actual movement took place, I say that the move action has been committed, and therefore, cannot be converted to a standard 5' crawl. And, in fact, that 5' of movement has been wasted, and perhaps could be considered to have been spent falling down.
3. The character still has some amount of movement left. However, being prone limits that character's actions, and normally this means there is nothing that can be done (although I'd say this allows the free action draw weapon during movement if the character has BAB greater than or equal to 1 -- I'm not talking about free actions in general, just clarifying that even though the character's movement was probably effectively ended, that doesn't disqualify the prerequisite for the weapon draw). However, if the character has a feat, item, class feature, or other exception-granting mechanism that allows trading movement during a move action, that could be done. For example, the rogue talent Rogue Crawl. If the character has 20' of movement remaining, that allows 10' of crawling.
4. The character has whatever actions remaining, and takes them as desired.
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What happens in the following situation:
- An opponent moves out of a threatened square with a regular move (move action).
- My monk gets an AoO and decides to trip him (monk has improved trip)
- The trip attack succeeds and the opponent ends up prone.
Now my question:
How many actions has my opponent remaining?
1) Has my opponent already spent a move action by trying to move out of my threatened square and does he 'lose' that one (Since standing up from prone is another, separate, move action)?
Or
2) Can he just stand up as a move action and then continue his move?
Or
3) Hasn't he spent his move action because before he would actually move I AoO'd him So he can just stand up as a move action and then take another (standard/move) action?
Or
4).....?
Thanks!
Once the AoO has been resolved, the target then continues their action if possible. In this case, they could choose to continue to move, if possible. If the attack happened in the first square of movement, then the target did not move at all before the trip attack. He could choose to crawl 5' while prone (but would be provoke another AoO from all targets that threaten him) since he did not move that round in any other way.
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I don't think there is a specific sentence in any of the rulebooks to point to, but only because there doesn't need to be. In order to provoke the attack of opportunity, you had to move. You were slammed to the ground when you tried, but you've still used up that action.
The sequence of events is:
Declare provoking action -> resolve AoO -> take action.
The AoO occurs before the action takes place, regardless of what the action is. In this instance, I could still use my move action to take one of several actions.
- move while prone: aka crawl.
- Stand up.
- take another move equivalent action.
- take a full round action if I still have my standard action available.
A clarification on the sequence of events was provided for attempting to trip prone targets standing up. It would be impossible to provide explicit examples of every possible event. Such a book would be larger than the CRB and still be incomplete.
I don't think there is a specific sentence in any of the rulebooks to point to, but only because there doesn't need to be. In order to provoke the attack of opportunity, you had to move. You were slammed to the ground when you tried, but you've still used up that action.The sequence of events is:
Declare provoking action -> resolve AoO -> take action.
The AoO occurs before the action takes place, regardless of what the action is. In this instance, I could still use my move action to take one of several actions.
- move while prone: aka crawl.
- Stand up.
- take another move equivalent action.
- take a full round action if I still have my standard action available.
A clarification on the sequence of events was provided for attempting to trip prone targets standing up. It would be impossible to provide explicit examples of every possible event. Such a book would be larger than the CRB and still be incomplete.
I don't agree with this, except for the ability to continue their movement while prone (aka crawl), since that is effectively a continuation of the triggering action. If the triggering action never takes place, why are you now on the floor?
Further, Crawl is a specific type of Move, and is included in the general rules for using a move action to move. It doesn't require that you use a separate move action to crawl once you are prone if you were already moving before you were prone (you had to be to provoke in the first place). The exception would be if you were tripped AFTER moving some distance. In that case, you could NOT continue your move as a crawl because you'd have already moved further with that action than the 5' crawl allows.
The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can't also take a 5-foot step.
Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).
Accelerated Climbing
You can climb at half your speed as a move action by accepting a –5 penalty on your Climb check.
Crawling
You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity.
Emphasis mine, to show that Crawl doesn't require a distinct move action to use; its included in the basic "Move" action.
The operating order is there to prevent things like trip-locks, but it doesn't negate the action that caused the interrupting AoO. You can't just act like the triggering event never occurred. They tried to move, and provoked. Further the tripping creature must have seen something to allow for the AoO...like the target beginning to move. That necessitated SOME degree of movement, thus all they can do with that move action is continue to move/crawl. In theory you could continue to climb or swim or fly as well, since those modes of movement are also included under the Move action, but trip interacts with those in specific ways that we don't need to get into right now.
If you can change the way you spend the move action after the fact, what exactly was it that provoked? Since you still have the move action available, its as if the move action never took place, except that you're now prone. That doesn't make any sense.
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You can't just act like the triggering event never occurred.
Your not going to. You still suffer negative effects. In the case of trip, it is going to take you a full round's actions to move away as opposed to just a move action.
Before, I could move 30 feet and cast a spell on you. Now, I can stand up and cast or stand up and move 30 feet.
I would have to choose between allowing a full attack against me the following round or move away while taking no combat actions.
Alternately: I could just cast a spell while prone.
You can't just act like the triggering event never occurred.Your not going to. You still suffer negative effects. In the case of trip, it is going to take you a full round's actions to move away as opposed to just a move action.
Before, I could move 30 feet and cast a spell on you. Now, I can stand up and cast or stand up and move 30 feet.
I would have to choose between allowing a full attack against me the following round or move away while taking no combat actions.
Alternately: I could just cast a spell while prone.
Sorry, I still don't see it that way. Just because you end up prone in your starting square doesn't mean you didn't move at all. You provoked by moving. The fact that you haven't used any of your allotted movement is what allows you to crawl, but you don't get that move action back to do whatever you please with. The move action was declared and initiated. That's why the AoO happened.
It just doesn't make any logical sense otherwise. I don't think I'll be able to see it differently without a Rules quote or relevant Dev quote stating something along the lines that an AoO that interrupts an action refunds that action to the provoking creature. Order of operations is one thing, but the triggering action (moving) HAS to have occurred for there to be an AoO (trip).
Artanthos, I also disagree that the move action is still undefined. You are not declaring a general move action.
You are declaring a specific move action called 'Move'. Once that is declared, you are locked in. If an AoO occurs that screws up that declared action you cannot take it back and say it is now the move action 'Stand Up' (which is a completely different move action).
- Gauss
MoshiMaro, lets turn that around: What rule is allowing you to change your action once it is declared? If you have declared an action it is declared, there is nothing in the core rules that allow you to change it.
- Gauss
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MoshiMaro, you are oversimplifying a few things.
If there is not a state change then the action may continue. If the state change does not impact the action then it may also, continue. How does this apply?
You move, you are tripped and are now prone. Since you cannot move while prone (other than crawling) your new state prevents you from continuing that move.
You are prone and declare that you are standing up. As you begin to stand up, and are 'tripped'. Since your state does not change (you are prone and a new trip attack cannot make you doubly prone) you may now proceed with your action of standing up.
The action is then continued and resolved. Without it starting, there can be no Attack of Opportunity. Otherwise, you get people declaring that they are casting a spell, you make an Attack of Opportunity, and since your AoO hits them before they resolve the spellcasting they 'change their mind' and dont cast? No, it doesn't work that way.
The action (or movement in the case of this thread) provokes. Since the action is IN PROGRESS when the AoO occurs it cannot be undone.
No, this is not clearly spelled out in the book. But it is clearly reasonable.
At this point you have had your answer by a number of people and while it is not unanimous it is mostly 'he loses his action if his new state cannot perform the action'.
- Gauss
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MoshiMaro, lets turn that around: What rule is allowing you to change your action once it is declared? If you have declared an action it is declared, there is nothing in the core rules that allow you to change it.
- Gauss
What rule bars it?
The answer is undefined by RAW putting the answer in the realm of GM fiat.