Highest Knowledge Check (CRB Only)

[Irranshalee]

Searched around a bit and most of the threads I found were incomplete or contradictory. I am looking for the highest possible knowledge check available to a PC. I will list what I have for sure and would appreciate any insight on what I have missed. Please note that I am only using bonuses from the CRB.

Base (42+1d20)

Class +3
Ranks +20
Skill Focus +6
Racial Stat +13 (36 int = 20 base +5 level +5 inherent +6 enhancement)

Considerations:

(Aid Another)
(Complete Library on Subject)
(Commune)
(Wish/Miracle)

Thanks for any help.

[VRMH]

+6 Competence bonus from having a Bard blearing into your ear while you're trying to study.

[Protoman]

I can't tell from your write up if you have bardic knowledge or not.

[HaraldKlak]

- A bard could have +10 from bardiac knowledge.
- A trait can give you +1.
- A magic item can give you as much as you can afford: Skill bonus squared *100. At lvl 20 you can probably afford a +20 bonus at the cost of 40.000 gp or even higher, if it is very important to you.

EDIT: Sry, CRB only will make the trait unavailiable.

[Valandil Ancalime]

Elf
18 Bard
2 levels Mindchemist

Class +3
Ranks +20
Skill Focus +6
Breadth of Knowledge +2
Stat +15 (40 int = 20 base +5 level +5 inherent +6 enhancement +4 alchemical)
Perfect Recall +15
Bardic Knowledge +9
Trait +1
Lore Master (take 20)
Base (71+20)=91
You can get higher if you are willing to splash some oracle (time or lore) levels in.

Edit: I didn't see CRB.
drop
Stat +2 (+4 alchemical)
Perfect Recall +15
add
+1 20 bard/bardic knowledge
= 55 + libraries, magic items, companions, etc...

[VRMH]

There's a bonus for being venerable, and we haven't yet taken spells into account. Greater Heroism, anyone?

[Irranshalee]

Currently 83.

What is the maximum allowed on an item for skills and what type of modifier is it?

Added bardic knowledge, morale bonus from greater heroism, age, and competence bonus for bard class (a second bard humming a tune for the first).

Base (63+1d20)

Class Skill +3
Ranks +20
Skill Focus +6
Racial Stat +13 (36 int = 20 base +5 level +5 inherent +6 enhancement)
Inspire Competence (competence bonus) +6
Bardic Knowledge +10
Greater Heroism (morale bonus) +4
Venerable Age +1

Considerations:

(Aid Another)
(Complete Library on Subject)
(Commune)
(Wish/Miracle)

[HaraldKlak]

Irranshalee wrote:

What is the maximum allowed on an item for skills and what type of modifier is it?

The rules doesn't state a max limit on the bonus, other than what your wallet. Of course a GM might introduce a limit.

It is a competence bonus, so it doesn't stack with inspire competence.

If you want to tweak it a lot, you can lower the price by a) having craft wonderous items (1/2 price) and b) making it 1 charge per day (1/5 price).

With those discounts you can make a +100 skill bonus item for 100.000 (100^2*100/2*1/5), which could be manageble at lvl 20.

Then again, I haven't seen knowledge DCs where that wouldn't be overkill.

[Buri]

If there is no limit you can get a +94 item at the low, low cost of 883,600 gp.

Ah, right crafting. Price vs. cost. Well then, +133 for 884,450gp cost. If you want to go the 1/day route then you can get it up to +210 for 882,000gp even.

[Viscount K]

HaraldKlak wrote:

Then again, I haven't seen knowledge DCs where that wouldn't be overkill.

Yup. As far as I'm concerned, if you're breaking 50 on a Knowledge check, you pretty much know everything that could ever possibly be known about the subject. Using the examples from Knowledge (Local): A DC of 10 allows you to "Know local laws, rulers, and popular locations", and 20 is "Know hidden organizations, rulers, and locations". Going from 10 to 20 allows you to transition from knowing the very basics of the subject, something anyone with a passing familiarity would know, to knowing secrets known to an elite group (secret societies).

If we assume every ten added to the DC cuts out a similar percentage of people in the know, then a 30 would probably allow you to know something only known to a few people, such as a specific gang's password to get into their hideout, and a 40 would start to know things that maybe one or two people are aware of, like the schedules and locations of every member of that gang on a given day. A 50 would almost have to be something known to no one else, like...heck, I don't know. Where the king keeps the key to his diary, maybe.

That being said, I'm pretty sure this is all just an exercise in number crunching, so whatever. But seriously, I can't imagine a bonus over fifty ever being necessary. On that note...why are you asking? I find myself curious, now that I've expounded on the weirdness of it.

Edit: For further amusement, the highest Paizo-official Knowledge DC I can find is a DC 35 Knowledge (Arcana) check, for knowing the abilities and weaknesses of the Tarrasque.
The highest third party? A DC 49 Knowledge (Planes) check, knowing the abilities and weaknesses of Lucifer, Prince of Darkness.

[Protoman]

Too bad it's CRB only. Lore Oracle's Focused Trance would be so awesome for this.

[Buri]

Viscount, keep in mind you can only know things you would know. Having a high knowledge score on something doesn't make you automatically omniscient about that entire area of knowledge.

[Viscount K]

I was exaggerating to make a point, obviously. Although, if somebody did bust out over a 50, I'd probably end up making something up to let them know whatever the hell they wanted, possibilities be damned.

[Irranshalee]

Okay, I think this is what I needed. Nearly every knowledge check is in the range of 10-30. I am going to work with 83 as the max or near it for my purposes which will make my list run in the 10-50 range.

Thank you so much for your help.

[Arizhel]

First, viscount K, your avatar reminds me of Underwater Welder.

Second, Buri, you are incorrect. If you succeed in the check, you know, regardless of the improbability. Knowledge (local) +100, and the DC to know where the king keeps the key to his diary is only 99, you know it. Mind you, the GM could make a given bit of knowledge flat out unobtainable, but if it has a DC . . .

It is kinda like the internet on crack. Your Search Fu is amazing.

[Buri]

I'm incorrect about what? A character not knowing the most intimate inner workings of a royal family in another country even though they've never been to that country or literally *just* learned the family even existed just because you can succeed on a DC 50 Know(Nobility) check? Hah.

If you had a library dedicated to foreign nobility that'd be a different story. Without that I don't care how high your skill bonus is.

[VRMH]

Buri wrote:

A character not knowing the most intimate inner workings of a royal family in another country even though they've never been to that country or literally *just* learned the family even existed just because you can succeed on a DC 50 Know(Nobility) check?

If you make the roll, you know. You always knew, ever since you heard that bard gossip about it six years ago. You may have forgotten you knew, but you knew it all the same. And now, after that skill check, you know you know.

[Buri]

Totally not how I do knowledge checks. Just because you can make a really high check doesn't always mean it makes sense for your character to know something. Ancient secrets only known to a few people that have all since died would be one example. It wouldn't matter how high you rolled. If there's no plausible way for you to know something then you can't know it.

[HaraldKlak]

Nothing in the knowledge skill suggest as intimate and specific knowledge as that.
A GM might be generous, but (s)he could just as easily choose to state that the question is not within the boundries of the skill.

[Dukai]

I realize this is slightly off the topic, but if you consider a very difficult challenge for a high level party (I'm talking CR 25ish), the knowledge check DC would likely be 15+25=40 (a CR 25 monster is likely extremely rare and thus justifies a base DC of 15+CR if not higher). Thus a check of around 50 only nets you 3 pieces of information about the creature. Just tossing that out there for consideration since these bonuses are being calculated at max level.

[Arizhel]

HaraldKlak wrote:

Nothing in the knowledge skill suggest as intimate and specific knowledge as that.

A GM might be generous, but (s)he could just as easily choose to state that the question is not within the boundries of the skill.

I should back up a bit.

1) The GM does NOT have to make a key to the secret diary. There need not be a written record of the inner most workings of the royal mind.
2) As such, there may be NO reasonable skill check to know said information.

BUT

1) IF a GM decides that there is a diary and a secret key, AND
2) IF a GM decided that knowing of these would be a Knowledge Nobility check, AND
3) IF a GM chose a DC for knowing of said diary and key, AND
4) IF a PLAYER rolls a success, it is known by that player's PC.

Note: You don't have to assign a DC, you don't have to make every bit of information reachable by the PCs. BUT IF you assign a DC, and the Player rolls a Success, she knows.

[Buri]

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Matthias87]

MAXIMIZING YOUR BASELINE
What I mean by "baseline" is maximizing the increase to all of your knowledge skills before any one of them receives unique bonuses from traits, spells, items, or feats (like Skill Focus). This is also focusing on baseline bonus that will always be available (rather than temporary bonuses). I'll be discussing options and variations further on.

Race: Half-Elf (at least 100 years old)

+2 to one ability score -- Choose Intelligence.

Adaptability -- Gain Skill Focus as a bonus feat. More on this later.

Feats:

Noble Scion (Lore) -- Must be taken at first level. Adds +1 to each knowledge skill you have at least one rank in.

Breadth of Experience -- Requires Elf (Half-Elf qualifies), but must be at least 100 years old

Racial Heritage (choose Catfolk or Vanara) -- Requires Human (Half-Elf qualifies). Used for selecting favored class bonuses (some retraining possibly required).

Enlightened Noble (Lore) -- Doubles the bonus provided by "Noble Scion (Lore)" after level 10.

Class: Bard, Archetype: Studious Librarian

Bardic Knowledge -- Add half of your class level to knowledge skill checks.

Catfolk or Vanara favored class bonus -- Effectively doubles the Bardic Knowledge bonus when taken every level.

Perfect Recollection -- Allows you to always take 20 on knowledge checks. Obtained from archetype at class level 19.

One rank in every knowledge skill each level.

Intelligence:

20 at level 1 -- Assuming 20 or 25 point buy with +2 racial bonus.

5 from leveling to 20 -- Add +1 intelligence at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20.

5 from Tome of Clear Thought

6 from Headband of Vast Intelligence (or similar item)

36 total -- Results in a +13 modifier

Items:

Mask of a Thousand Tomes -- Adds +10 competence bonus to all knowledge skills. Causes blindness (combine Veiled Eye with headband if possible).

At level 20, this will result in a baseline modifier +67, which will always result in an 87 on your knowledge rolls because of the level 19 class archetype ability. If you calculate the intelligence bonus granted by old age for a 100 year-old Half-Elf, it would increase the intelligence modifier by +1 resulting in a grand total of 88.

Quote:

How to transform this kit into a skill monkey:

Pick up the Clever Wordplay character trait and apply it to the performance skill of your choice. Then, select that performance skill for your Versatile Performance class feature and subsequent Advanced Versatile Performances (Expanded Versatility). This will result in a single skill rank per level which eventually effects 7 different skills (8 if you decide to take the Persuasive Performer feat).

(Optional) Change your race to Human or Half-Orc to maximize the number of skill ranks you earn per level. Half-Orcs can trade out Darkvision for Skilled and Orc Ferocity + Weapon Familiarity for Human-Raised, netting them a total of +2 skill ranks per level.

Quote:

Getting the highest knowledge bonuses possible:

Since most bonuses don't stack with themselves, it's helpful to know what types of bonuses are out there (and then use the Archives of Nethys to search for relevant matches). I'm not going to list all the possible traits/feats/items/class features, but I will list the different bonus types that might apply to knowledge skills:

- Alchemical -- example: Clear Ear
- Armor
- Base Attack Bonus
- Circumstance -- examples: Pathfinder Chronicle, Pnakotic Record, Pathfinder Society Ally (Feat), Shared Remembrance (Teamwork Feat), Page-Bound Epiphany (Spell)
- Competence -- Covered by Mask of a Thousand Tomes mentioned earlier
- Deflection
- Dodge
- Enhancement -- examples: Withstanding (Armor Quality), Discovery Torch (Spell)
- Inherent -- (Reserved for ability score bonuses from tomes like Tome of Clear Thought)
- Insight -- examples: Stirring Discourse of the Mind (Bard Masterpiece), Tree of Knowledge (Plant), Azlant Pendant, Akashic Communion (Spell), Ancestral Communion (Spell), Hypercognition (Spell)
- Luck -- example: Cleromancy (Spell)
- Morale -- example: Inspire Competence (from another Bard)
- Natural Armor
- Profane -- example: Irori (Obedience)
- Racial -- example: Comprehensive Education (Human Alternative Racial)
- Sacred -- see "Profane"
- Shield
- Size
- Trait -- various, but none are generic to any/all knowledge skills
- Increasing Intelligence directly -- various, but I won't list them here

When choosing which options provide the most benefit, I typically weigh them based on the total number of skill ranks/bonuses they're providing. For example:

- Perfect Recollection (Studious Librarian) -- Effectively 200 (or +190) between 10 knowledge skills since it guarantees a natural 20 on the roll.
- Clever Wordplay -- With Bard's Versatile Performance: Up to 104 (assuming a high Intelligence) or 112 (with age modifiers) between (up to 8 effected) various skills. Without Versatile performance, it only affects one skill.
- Bard's Versatile Performance -- See "Clever Wordplay" above.
- Increasing Intelligence Modifier -- Adds 20 skill ranks (to probably a new skill). Also benefits all Intelligence-based skills (at least 14 per Intelligence modifier increase... more if traits and other affects convert skill modifiers to Intelligence).
- Breadth of Experience -- 20 between 10 knowledge skills
- Bardic Knowledge (Bard) -- Ramps up to 10 between 10 knowledge skills. Note that other classes have a similar benefit (Cloistered Cleric)
- Catfolk or Vanara Bard favored class bonus -- Ramps up to 10 between 10 knowledge skills.
- Noble Scion (Lore) (Feat) -- 10 between 10 knowledge skills
- Enlightened Noble (Lore) (Feat) -- 10 between 10 knowledge skills
- Scholar (Feat) -- Up to 8 between 2 knowledge skills.
- Skill Focus (Feat) -- Up to 6 on a single knowledge skill. Can get multiple times.
- (Various others, usually no more than +2 to a single skill)

With any luck, it is technically possible to resolve a single knowledge check into a resulting roll of around 120 or so. Maybe, just maybe... we can find out what really happened to Aroden with a roll that high.