Goblin Squad Member
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I am hesitant to purchase addons until they have explained the skill system better.
They have given vague outlines, but haven't given a single specific example and don't answer my messages about it.
On my own I am working up a PFO version of the skill system incorporating everything form pathfinder and I am going to run it this Spring with my table top group.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It might help to make the comparison between PFO and GURPS:Pathfinder instead. The D20 system sacrificed complexity for ease of use and in doing so invoked things like HP/sudden existence failure, hit-or-miss combat, and column A-column B character sheets.
Summary as I understand so far: XP will be gained over time for subscribers, and will be spent on Skills. Skills have XP cost and may have prerequisites as well. Skills provide Abilities, which can be passive or active, and include everything from +thread to spells to combat maneuvers to tradeskills.
In Pathfinder comparisons: Skills are levels; abilities are feats, class features, and proficiencies. XP is incomparable. No word yet on the Heath and magic resource(s).
At this stage I'd only be guessing; so much depends on other factors like friendly fire, collision detection, archetypal breadth/depth, saving throws, in game IC skills, end game design, alignment, and f2p restrictions. Some abilities, spells, and feats seem virtually impossible to code unless it boils down to a few choices on a pop up screen or as percentages. (For ex: someone "clairvoyances" my intentions. Results are 60% chance of attack, 20% leave alone, 20% join group based on my Hx of interaction with other players.)
That said, I have always seen the development of DnD or D20 rules/games as an expansion of what is to what can be. In the beginning I would surmise that basic, very limited, iconoclastic skills will be in, especially those found in the earlier/core books, with a sprinkeling of later, advanced books. Some like swim, ride, fly, climb, may make it in over time. (Or not.) Ride might make a good mtx skill and be something given to subscribers, but not to f2p folks unless via mtx.
In the beginning I would expect enough skills, feats, etc. to make archetypes different from each other, viable and balanced. Over time more variations and specialties would be included. They have hinted that teamwork feats may be in, but grapple feats may be out.
Many feats reflect the specialization or addition of classes/abilities that has occurred over time in D20 games. While one could play a gladiator using net and trident in early rulesets, specific feats like Net Trickery followed many years down the road. I expect PFO to follow a similiar approach: in the beginning only basic skills and feats will be possible. Over time specialized classes and abilities will develop. Are EE players going to have access to finished content? Nope. Will we have an advantage or be able to learn new skills/feats etc. Yep.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't know if the legal aspects of the Open Gaming License allow for the usage of all terminolgy in a video game. So we might see similar feats with different names.
Plus skills like Power Attack require the player to make a choice every swing so even familiar feats will have to be drastically altered for PfO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't know if the legal aspects of the Open Gaming License allow for the usage of all terminolgy in a video game. So we might see similar feats with different names.
Plus skills like Power Attack require the player to make a choice every swing so even familiar feats will have to be drastically altered for PfO.
Lisa (Paizo CEO) has posted GW and thus PfO, isn't party to the OGL, so they can't use anything WotC has IP rights to, so you are correct that skills/feats will likely be named something else.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the kickstarter backer levels was set up for the backer to help rename a magic spell. GW is to describe to the backer what powers are available and the backer gets to name the spell.
So if 'magic missile' powers are available the backer might rename that 'Aether Strike' or 'Fey Darts' or some such.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm interested in this also. How are the devs gonna implement skills, feats and class abilities and will there be passive skills like swimming? Will ranger class merit badge require to train swimming as it is a class skill for ranger? Can all abilities(skills, feats, class abilities) be maxed? Will characters be uniformed considering passive abilities when they are maxed? I would really like to see characters that are better at swimming than others and those that can't swim at all(poor swimmers with heavy armor=drop straight to bottom with a snail like movement speed=get drowned for running out of breath! <- water traps :)). Or will just the armor character is wearing resolve his ability to swim.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Should armor wearers be allowed to swim well if they will remove their plate and stow their shield?
Always found that technical mechanic funny in some games, It ain't easy to swim in plate... it ain't much easier to swim with a full plate suit in your backpack unless you have that as extra-dimensional space.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suppose where suspense of disbelief requires an attending suspense of physical law, it is ultimately simpler to just allow plate armor wearers to swim effortlessly altogether.
Really they should have to remove the armor and backpack and float those across on a makeshift raft while swimming... or attach a rope to the bundle, swim across, and pull the whole lot to the far shore all waterlogged and now rusting wherever the oil was too thin or worn off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Really they should have to remove the armor and backpack and float those across on a makeshift raft while swimming... or attach a rope to the bundle, swim across, and pull the whole lot to the far shore all waterlogged and now rusting wherever the oil was too thin or worn off.
This is why historically fords, ferries, and bridges were so important; moving heavy equipment or goods across a waterway is a logistical nightmare.
Trying to move something with a high negative buoyancy and high weight such as armor across the surface of the water isn't something that most swimmers, regardless of skill, could do on their own. When a ford couldn't be found, one trick that early explorers would use was to create a swim bladder (or bladders) out of an animal's stomach and lash their equipment (and often their clothing) to the crude flotation device. This would be pushed ahead of them or dragged behind them on a rope as they swam across the barrier.
A swim skill could be an abstraction of such ingenuity. You really don't need to go through all the minutia associated with the action, and in some cases your character knows more than you do anyway so you should just let them 'do it'. It does require some suspension of disbelief, but there are times where it's far easier to just let it slide.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Always found that technical mechanic funny in some games, It ain't easy to swim in plate... it ain't much easier to swim with a full plate suit in your backpack unless you have that as extra-dimensional space.Should armor wearers be allowed to swim well if they will remove their plate and stow their shield?
Long live Bags of Holding and Handy Haversacks!
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Long live Bags of Holding and Handy Haversacks!Always found that technical mechanic funny in some games, It ain't easy to swim in plate... it ain't much easier to swim with a full plate suit in your backpack unless you have that as extra-dimensional space.Should armor wearers be allowed to swim well if they will remove their plate and stow their shield?
I am going to assume EVERY player character is going to start off with either one, of both of these items, simply for convenience, and have similarly have been woven out of Pharasmas magical "Thread," so you cant lose it. Sure, you die, anyone can pour it open and loot you but they never keep the bag etc.
This mainly because I don't think players will be happy with the reality of carrying/holding more than 25+ lbs of weight. This will surely be tied to strength and maybe constitution or even stamina.
Maybe not though, I wouldn't mind an organization skill that lets you pack your equipment better etc, maybe make it a tetris thing based on the item picture etc. I was thinking similar to the Diablo style bag, but with the grid size depending on how much storage you have, maybe even different tabs for each separate storage location you carry etc.
This kind of thing would require PC's to probably use a Mule just to carry the loot (In most cases, Minerals, Coin, or Dead Monster-parts) back to the settlement. I tend to overpack on my own, and I doubt 3 days of eating and casting spells will run my weight down any further than maybe 10 lbs, IF I litter. I figure I'll leave town with a Medium Load, and unless I have some Extra-Dimensonal Storage, I'm not carrying much else back with me.
I'm concerned that Fast Travel will destroy any real penalties of encumbrance anyhow, since it wont rely on the users land speed.
The biggest danger that i see, Is what happened with AD&D -> DDO. The way skills/feats where/are crunched. Not in the spirit of P'n'P AD&D, Taking a few lvl's in other classes(thanks racial Favoured) to exploit the feat/skill/class system. Most builds wanted 2 lvl's of rogue for uncanny dodge and UMD(figthers dont need to cast heal scrolls.....Or do they?)
I would like to see people playing charaters that they would play at the gaming table.
Also hope that the weapons/gear are not over the top, My gear in DDO was insane, I had 2 +3 Holy bursting, pure good long swords of undead bane at 12th lvl.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agree concerning rivers/water being a barrier to heavy goods and items eg plate mail. Making the geography of the land actually have impact on trade and tactics (not huge 'you can see it from space' choke-points on the map as mentioned elsewhere mind). If roads increase speed/travel and possibly capacity then rivers should require bridges which should be heavy investments (I wonder how long a viaduct or aquaduct took the Romans to build for eg?). And if players in plate sink, that is very good too. Gives rogues an escape vicinity (frogman skill) or trees (out-fox them skill).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Should armor wearers be allowed to swim well if they will remove their plate and stow their shield?
Or even those heavy flowing robes that become so waterlogged and tangled they would drown a character as surely as full chainmail would?
1. Wet cloths are not heavier in water. It is the same effect of getting cloths 'wet' with air. coarse and lightly woven Clothing causes drag with decreases swim speed, which doesn't seriously effect your ability to float. As for getting tangled, you are probably having trouble walking if your robes go down that far.
2. People swim in chain mail, it's called a shark bite suit.
Every person can swim with a different weight based on their physical strength and personal buoyancy. This is a place in the game where I would like to see some physics simulated, every piece of armor should have a weight and buoyancy. If the weight in water is higher than the character can handle, the character sinks, and slowly drowns if they don't get their armor off in time, which they can then go retrieve piece by piece at the bottom of whatever they were swimming in. Weight would also effect swim speed. And clothing can be given a drag coefficient.
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Goblin Squad Member
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valken: 'wet' clothes are heavier in water if the 'dry' clothes have air trapped between the fibres. Padded armor and wooden shields might have positive bouyancy, and that waterskin in your backpack can help you float too.
About drag etc. I agree: floating is not the same as swimming, and stiff plate boots would slow you down. Plate may also have viscous damping of movement if you need to pump water in/out every time you bend a joint (ie literally "pump" your legs).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Considering they want a capstone ability to take a couple years to reach I imagine any skill you can think of will likely be in the game.
Or we are going to get 50 ranks of slash...or something, which will be incredibly disappointing
More or less, as Ryan seems to be pointing to, the game will follow the Eve skill model.
Meaning, there will be tons of skills and abilities to train up. Cant prove that though, I think they are still working it out.