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Possibly Spoilers, if you're playing in RotRL or Shattered Star proceed with caution
Hey guys, I was looking over the Thassilonian sin archetype and thought it would be interesting to have a wizard that started with that and possibly learned or leaned toward virtue instead of sin.
In particularly I'd love to try playing a wizard that starts as a Sloth Wizard and slowly uncovers Zeal magic instead. If using just fluff I had planned on going with a neutral summoner that leaned toward Evil summons that eventually leans toward Good summons (*shrug* Best I feel can do without changing too many rules)
That said has anybody given any thought to what that might entail? If you were a GM would you give any RP/Gameplay bonuses to a character who tried for that sort of growth? Also, in the world of Golarion, does that not work? I know the original thassilonian wizards left virtue magic because they did not find it powerful enough. So perhaps they were missing something? I'm not sure. What do you think?
Fair enough, I'm not very versed on thassilonian magic as is, so I'll have to catch up on that!
That said, does anyone have ideas of any way that a Virtue Wizard might be different from a Sin Wizard? The mechanics of the archetype don't necessarily even scream Sin Wizard, so much as just a super focused specialist.
Where were the virtues in Thassalon named?
I believe the RotRL Anniversary Edition has more information on Thassilonian magic in one of the appendices.
RotRL AE Appendix 7.
Envy=Charity
Gluttony=Temperance
Greed=Generosity
Lust=Love
Pride=Humility
Sloth=Zeal
Wrath=Kindness
So the same as the Seven Holy Charities that oppose the Seven Fiendish Sins in Christianic Lore.
Interesting mix of the theological and the cardinal virtues even though charity and love equate in Christian theology.
Depends on if you are talking Catholic or Protestant Virtues.
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You would have to stay away from certain summons once you started towards the virtue side such as sinspawn, shining child, and lamia. Also you might want to check the cypher mage prc. for fluff I would say he found a book that detailed how thassilionian magic started. Also the leadership feat will let you get underlings to help with your zeal. Also the runelord of sloth was the high priests of the religion of Thassilion, will your character worship a god to be Zealous for?
Edit: Squire feat lets you get helper early on and becomes leadership at 7th level.
Hm, interesting point. I hadn't noticed that the Runelord of sloth was a religious leader. I'd have to have the character find some God. Or talk to my DM about a possible antithesis for Lissala.
What about summoning Sinspawn? Think it'd be possible to refluff them as "Virtuespawn"? Though that name wouldn't give them much credit. The sinspawn abilities are pretty heavily "evil" slanted so I could see it getting a bit of a rework. Perhaps if the Virtuespawn were more like buffer/helpers but I've haven't really researched conjuration spells yet so I don't know the precedent for that.
As for Leadership at least I personally wouldn't be able to do it. My group tends to have 5 players and at least one of them always plays something with an Animal Companion/Eidolon/Conjuration build. So things already tend to get clunky. Perhaps if I left the Cohort to deal with the "day to day" things.
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As above the Sinspawn where made by fleshwarping like the drow do, with is pretty much torture for the mind and body. The shining child is CE alignment, I will look through the bestiary and see if I can find good replacements for them. Also Zin was a Neutral wizard the virtues are not necessarily good aligned, heck they come from a LE deity (Lissala),
I think Virtue Magic would be mechanically the same as Sin Magic, it would just be used into a different purpuse
Instead of transmuting lead into gold it would turn garbage into food and spoiled water into purified one to drink to feed the needy etc,etc.
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I think Virtue Magic would be mechanically the same as Sin Magic, it would just be used into a different purpuse
Instead of transmuting lead into gold it would turn garbage into food and spoiled water into purified one to drink to feed the needy etc,etc.
I started trying to do that but instead I went for a Magaambyan Arcanist wich is a goodytwoshoes super cool Prestige Class
Dot. I really want to see this line of reasoning continue!
Hm, interesting point. I hadn't noticed that the Runelord of sloth was a religious leader. I'd have to have the character find some God. Or talk to my DM about a possible antithesis for Lissala.
He was head of the church, that's not the same thing as being head of the entire religion.
For one thing he wasn't a Cleric, he was a wizard. As by the end the church had become a largely secular way of gaining power and prestige rather than something honestly devoted to Lissala.
There are a few threads about the possibility of Lissala being a LN goddess who's church was corrupted, and her write-up in Pathfinder Magazine somewhat supports this view. Even though the word of god is that she was always intended to be LE.
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Hm, interesting point. I hadn't noticed that the Runelord of sloth was a religious leader. I'd have to have the character find some God. Or talk to my DM about a possible antithesis for Lissala.
He was head of the church, that's not the same thing as being head of the entire religion.
For one thing he wasn't a Cleric, he was a wizard. As by the end the church had become a largely secular way of gaining power and prestige rather than something honestly devoted to Lissala.
There are a few threads about the possibility of Lissala being a LN goddess who's church was corrupted, and her write-up in Pathfinder Magazine somewhat supports this view. Even though the word of god is that she was always intended to be LE.
Yes but he is going from Sloth to Zeal and with Zeal you need to be Zealous for something that could be a deity or a philosophy. I also believe Lissala should be LN.
Depends on if you are talking Catholic or Protestant Virtues.
Catholic theology
Indeed, Lissala, as depicted in her article, is an excellent candidate for a Zeal wizard. The last Runelord of Sloth was the head of her church because by that point she had mostly withdrawn herself from Thassilon.
Depends on if you are talking Catholic or Protestant Virtues.Catholic theology
Okay then yeah Chastity is the Virtue to Lust's Sin.
Yes but he is going from Sloth to Zeal and with Zeal you need to be Zealous for something that could be a deity or a philosophy. I also believe Lissala should be LN.Hm, interesting point. I hadn't noticed that the Runelord of sloth was a religious leader. I'd have to have the character find some God. Or talk to my DM about a possible antithesis for Lissala.He was head of the church, that's not the same thing as being head of the entire religion.
For one thing he wasn't a Cleric, he was a wizard. As by the end the church had become a largely secular way of gaining power and prestige rather than something honestly devoted to Lissala.
There are a few threads about the possibility of Lissala being a LN goddess who's church was corrupted, and her write-up in Pathfinder Magazine somewhat supports this view. Even though the word of god is that she was always intended to be LE.
I actually really like this idea. I realize if my DM feels like going directly for Golarion's lore then she'll likely have to be LE, but I like the idea that Lissala could be LN. (I might have to play a Mystic Theurge at this point... Hahaha) I'll definitely have to run it by my DM.
And actually now that I'm looking at it Sin Mages don't get the ability to summon Sinspawn. That seems to be a feature exclusive to the Cyphermage prestige class. So the point could be moot. That said with some finagling from your DM I could see a variant of the Leadership feat where you might have somebody "volunteer" to be a virtuespawn. Some sort of exemplary person that embodies that particular virtue.