Goblin Squad Member
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While chatting over Team Speak with several PFO community members, we hit upon the topic of neutral settlements. I would like to get other people's thoughts about these as well.
One of the things we discussed was the opportunity for a neutral settlement to become a safe haven for diplomacy. By being neutral, such a settlement might afford ambassadors of the polar alignments an aggression-free locale for discussing treaties, cease-fires, etc. In a word - Switzerland.
In that same vein, it was mentioned that such a place, if it was afforded the status of neutral sanctuary - a place all nations agreed never to attack for the mutual benefit it provided the community as a whole - could such a place become a city of secretive bank accounts and a haven for those seeking political asylum? For instance, if you thought your settlement was under imminent threat of invasion, could you transfer much of your wealth to the PFO-Switzerland settlement?
Or, like Moorcock's Tanelorn, could it become the place to escape the constant war between Law and Chaos - a place where the resident's alignments are left at the gate and their past heroics or crimes are forgotten?
if N settlement training facilities aren't on par with the alignment extremes,
N settlement members can always pay to train at other settlement's facilities.
the N settlement members will likely be 1 step away from TN, and thus eligible for a broad range of alignment-specific classes/skills.
not to put down your flavor/story-rich imagination, but i'm pretty sure that generic gold will not be tied to a specific location, it will be safe in abstract bank accounts, the loss of a settlement being destroyed is the buildings involved. if a settlement organization has it's own bank account, and the settlement organization would dissolve a certain amount of time after loosing control of the settlement/hex itself, there would be some means (possibly automatic) of distributing the settlement bank account to it's members before the organization is dissolved.
(i don't understand the need for, and aren't in favor of, settlement organizations not being able to exist without control of physical settlement, but that is what has been presented by GW so far, AFAIK. obviously, the clear benefits of settlements re: training and processing/transactions make a settlement/hex-less organization much less appealing, but i see no reason to enforce any cut-off or dissolving of such a group)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Quandary,
If, as you describe, coin is to be an intangible item (now that I think about it, I may recall something about it being like Eve in that manner), then maybe my flavor/story-rich - neutral city could be where the soon-to-be defunct settlement holes away raw materials and precious goods for a new start.
I would love to see a settlement able to provide not only a banking facility for its members, but be able to rent storage space to others. It would be a nice source of upkeep income for the bankers and a way to spread out, and thereby diversify, your physical wealth (ingots, gems, lumber, etc.). Of course, it would still have to be private storage - you don't want your rented bank box being looted by double-crossing bankers, and if the banking settlement gets overrun, you're still up the creek.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm in favor of anyone trying to create any kind of settlement they wish, freedom of play is something that should be paramont in a sandbox MMO.
I agree that your idea of a True Neutral city, open to all, would be a valuable asset to the entire server community.
The problems I think you might find are that:
1. The settlement would support skills below the level of Mastery, other than those that are considered to be "Neutral".
2. There will be a starter Neutral settlement that may offer exactly the same that you are looking to build.
3. Your primary competition would therefor be an NPC settlement, which can not be attacked and has no operating costs.
I would love to see a settlement able to provide not only a banking facility for its members, but be able to rent storage space to others. It would be a nice source of upkeep income for the bankers and a way to spread out, and thereby diversify, your physical wealth (ingots, gems, lumber, etc.). Of course, it would still have to be private storage - you don't want your rented bank box being looted by double-crossing bankers,
Ah, I Really like this idea! Perhaps this could be an option that can be an optional reward for some level of settlement management or settlements operations skill tree? Similar to the option to purchase additional bag slots in a towns vault that other games offer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bluddwolf,
First off, I have no intention of building a settlement. I'll be spending most of my time helping newbies, running community events, managing plot-lines, and doing a bit of harvesting. I won't have the time to sink into settlement construction. But, I would like to see something like a neutral settlement exist. To your points specifically:
1. Though a neutral settlement might not be able to provide every skill trainer, I have found that there is something to be said for finding your niche in a game, especially if its a niche no one else is filling. So though you may not have every amenity that other settlements offer, if you can offer things that no one else does (or at least no one else does in your part of the world), you'll still draw your specialized membership. Will it be enough to support a settlement, I don't know. However, there are always those players who will rally around a niche cause, even if it means sacrificing some conveniences and limiting some of their choices.
2 & 3. I think the difference would be that the NPC cities don't have players running the show, making deals, and providing other niche services that NPC towns don't...and certainly not offering these out further from the safety of NPC town hexes. You might only offer the same trainers as NPC towns, but if that town is a day or two away from where the adventurer is enjoying his adventuring, he might find that neutral settlement very handy and patronize it often. Also, there are those niche services - whether its renting bank space, providing safe haven at no cost and without the usual constraints of alignment, acting as a hub for safe, judgement-free diplomacy, or even tax free trade (if the settlement owners are rich enough to offer it while maintaining their settlement upkeep). Again, if you can find that "something" that no one else is doing, especially if it is easier to accomplish because you're neutral, then you can carve out your spot.
For instance, in Rift, where many crafters didn't care to spend the game time doing their own raw materials harvesting, they either bummed what they needed off guildmates or put up with auction house prices. Having a dislike for auction houses, I decided to fill a needed niche. I designed my character with skills totally chosen for harvesting (stealthing to get in and traps to cover my escape if mobs spotted me), and that's what I spent 80% of my time doing - harvesting. I actually spent so much time harvesting, and had so much stock for sale, that some people accused me of being a bot. Once I had sufficient stock, I advertised that I was selling at below auction house prices - if someone ordered a certain material, I would check the lowest AH price and cut it by usually 20%. A year into the game, I had a client list of 100+ people who would come to me first for their crafting mats. Would this have been as successful if everyone was doing it, certainly not. But I found a niche and filled it (and became rich enough to start loaning others cash...not for a profit...but I could have). That's what I think Neutral settlements need to do - find their niche and fill it.
To wrap this up, I think one of a neutral settlement's best assets will be its ability to play both sides of the alignment spectrum. If they can make themselves too valuable of a community service to attack, then they can prosper without having to necessarily keep up with the Jones'. For instance, a neutral settlement would make a splendid sanctuary for new players just testing the water away from the safety of NPC towns. Given that this settlement could welcome any alignment newbie, it could become "the" place for welcoming and educating new community members and could be seen as a recruiting hub for every other settlement. For such a public service, it might find its more militant neighbors offering protection or even supplies for its upkeep.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm in favor of anyone trying to create any kind of settlement they wish, freedom of play is something that should be paramont in a sandbox MMO.
Freedom and responsibility for one's actions.
Kudos on the Tanelorn reference, Hobs! I think if you could rent storage space to outside settlements it should be materials, and those materials would need to be physically delivered. One concern I have with this idea, why would a settlement who takes a stong stand in the world ever keep their loot in their own settlement if they could store it in a NN settlement? Seems like it would take some of the risk/reward out of a meaningful situation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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providing safe haven at no cost and without the usual constraints of alignment,
This sort of idea makes me hesitate. Alignment is one of the mechanisms for fostering meaningful choice, so to remove it from the equation makes me sad.
But if you are thinking that a NN setttlement would enact laws to allow all alignments to temporary meet in the settlement, that could work. But if that's the case would they also have access to the settlement's training facilities?
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Goblin Squad Member
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providing safe haven at no cost and without the usual constraints of alignment,This sort of idea makes me hesitate. Alignment is one of the mechanisms for fostering meaningful choice, so to remove it from the equation makes me sad.
But if you are thinking that a NN setttlement would enact laws to allow all alignments to temporary meet in the settlement, that could work. But if that's the case would they also have access to the settlement's training facilities?
People make choices everyday without having an alignment. Can you really describe yourself or a truly fleshed out character in just two letters?
Alignment runs counter to role playing and meaningful choices. Ask yourself this question, "If there was no alignment system, would you play your character differently?"
For me the answer is a resounding "No". There is no alignment system in EvE Online and I fully plan on playing my PFO bandit exactly the same way as my EvE pirate. A sandbox MMO is supposed to foster unlimited, meaningful choices.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Elorenaen,
First, thank you for the Tanelorn praise, though I'll admit that it's been so long since I read Moorcock that I had to Google the name to check the spelling. ;)
I think a settlement that takes a strong stand would be very wise to store its valuables elsewhere. I don't think doing so removes the kind of risk you seem to desire and that will make the game more interesting, for the people of that settlement have the greatest possession still to lose - their settlement.
This makes PFO pretty unique. Back in UO, guilds would clash, people's equipment might be looted, thieves could steal from pack, and before the Trammel split, PvP happened anywhere outside an NPC town...BUT...no one could take away your house. Regardless of what happened, you always had that most important of all possessions to fall back on. But here, where territory will be king, your actions, or stands as you mention, might cost you that most prized possession.
So would it be advantageous to stash your resettlement goods, your rainy day mats, somewhere else? You bet'cha.
As for whether trainers should be available to visiting alignments, sure...but perhaps at marked up prices. Neutral makes for some of the best businessmen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Seems like it would take some of the risk/reward out of a meaningful situation.
Not at all. Just means that the NN settlement better have adequate defenses to deliver on its promise of safekeeping or the raiders will aim for the NN settlement instead to grab all the loot. The risk is transferred, not avoided.
1. The settlement would support skills below the level of Mastery, other than those that are considered to be "Neutral".
Aligned Classes vs. Non-Aligned Classes:
Paladin/AntiPaladin, Monk, Clerics and Inquisitors of G/E/C/L Deities, Barbarian...vs.
Fighters, Rangers, Cavaliers, Rogue, Wizard, Witch, Sorceror, Oracles, Clerics of N Deities, Druids, Bards, Magus, Summoner, Alchemist...
The majority of Classes (or abilities associated with them) are not (non-N) Alignment linked.
One (non-N) Aligned settlement is cutting itself off completely from the opposite aligned classes.
Neutral settlements should have their own unique Aligned Classes (N Clerics, Druids)
2 Classes there, not much different than I'm seeing most other Alignments getting...
(LG and CE have 3 Core classes (if Anti-Paladin is included, which I hope is, at least eventually)
N of course should also have 'intermediate' access to all Aligned Classes, and all the non-aligned Classes.
Does that really sound like some sort of game-breaker there?
What is really the worst case scenario? Everybody can train normally up to 'intermediate' level in every single Class at this one single N-Aligned Settlement, whose members represent the entire spectrum of class abilities, and only once they pass the 'intermediate' training level will SOME classes (the non-N aligned ones) need to find training elsewhere - which the Settlement could very well pay for itself, for members in good standing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can see this. A neutral settlement may be able to offer services no other can. An example might include a nice, neutral location for meetings between parties of differing alignments who cannot set foot in each others settlement without being attacked by the NPC guards (unless there are plans to allow for "ambassadors" or some other setting).
Plus, a neutral settlement would be a haven for merchants. Even if you are from a specifically aligned settlement, you want your goods to reach the widest audience. Why not set up a shop in a neutral environment? If you are going to do that, it only makes sense to keep materials on-hand for easy access as well, so you'd do a lot of banking there, too.
Lots of possibilities here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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People make choices everyday without having an alignment. Can you really describe yourself or a truly fleshed out character in just two letters?
Alignment reflects the choices you make. No, alignment is not everything a character is, nor is that its role. With that said, yeap, it is usually pretty easy to tell what alignment a character is over time by the actions they take.
Alignment runs counter to role playing and meaningful choices. Ask yourself this question, "If there was no alignment system, would you play your character differently?"
For me the answer is a resounding "No". There is no alignment system in EvE Online and I fully plan on playing my PFO bandit exactly the same way as my EvE pirate. A sandbox MMO is supposed to foster unlimited, meaningful choices.
I think you are approaching alignment from the wrong angle. Well developed characters are those who have a character/personality. This character arises from the "consistent" actions that they take over time. It is on the basis of one's character that you address new situations and make decisions. It is on the basis of character that given a ethical situation if one should rightly describe you as good or bad based given the characteristic of the action in question.
So, whether you are thinking of the alignment system or not, you have an alignment based on the actions you take. You may say, "Nothing defines me." But your actions create and are the basis of your character from which an alignment arises. You have an alignment, whether the system has something called "alignment" or not.
In PFRPG, alignment is even more pronounced because of divine presence and power.
One reason, and certainly not the only reason, your choices will matter is because there will be mechanisms in place to support alignment. Nor, is current design of the alignment system addressing every single thing a character might do, in fact really a fairly minor subset I'm thinking. But in the end, you should play the character you want to play, and the system will develop an alignment based on the way the character plays.