Hello all,
I'm new to Pathfinder (just bought Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and Shattered Star: Shards of Sin a couple weeks ago), but I've been playing D&D since the early 1980s. So, I'm fairly familiar with the general systems, but not as versed when it comes to 3.0/3.5, having only played those versions briefly and not for a good decade at this point. So far I'm loving these books, the art, the writing, everything is very cool.
Anyway, I have a few questions springing from my reading of Shattered Star: Shards of Sin. Hindsight indicates I may have purchased an AP too far along the Pathfinder knowledge curve, but I'm determined to wrap my head around this book because it has captured my interest. While my questions are being generated by this AP, they really apply to my understanding of the game rules in general, so hopefully I'm in the right forum.
On to the questions.
1. Reading the description for Ayala Javeski, on page 33, her stat block shows the following:
Melee +1 bladed scarf +8 (1d6+2)
This entry is confusing to me. My understanding is that magical weapons show their bonus first (+1, etc.), but this entry is not italicized. In addition, it has a second item, +8, at the other end of the entry. What exactly is this telling me?
2. Reading the description for Sheila Heidmarch, on page 62, her stat block shows the following:
Melee +1 merciful defending quarterstaff +8/+3 (1d6+2 plus 1d6 nonlethal)
When I see an entry like this, with a +8/+3, does that mean that this beast/monster/NPC is allowed two attacks per turn with this weapon? Or is this listed because a quarterstaff is a double weapon?
3. Finally, I'm not certain about how monsters/NPCs gain their melee bonuses. As an example, the Cave Morays on page 53 have the following entry:[/b]
Melee bite +5 (2d6+3)
Where does the +5 come from for this attack? How is it calculated?
Referencing Sheila again, where do her +8/+3 come from? How are they calculated? If I calculate per the Attack Bonus rules on page 178 of the Core Rulebook, she would seem to have a +7 (BAB +6 and then her magical weapon bonus +1). This leaves +1, which I believe comes from her Strength, but I have no idea about the /+3, which has me completely stumped. :)
4. Finally, for an NPC like Sheila, when her Melee block has the following entry, I assume the damage 1d6+2 is the standard 1d6 for a quarterstaff, with a +1 magic enhancement and a +1 Strength bonus?
Melee +1 merciful defending quarterstaff +8/+3 (1d6+2 plus 1d6 nonlethal)
If I've hopelessly confused things, let me know and I'll try to clarify. Thank you all in advance for any assistance you can provide!
First of all, welcome to Pathfinder! ^__^ Now, on to your questions...
1. Reading the description for Ayala Javeski, on page 33, her stat block shows the following:
Melee +1 bladed scarf +8 (1d6+2)
This entry is confusing to me. My understanding is that magical weapons show their bonus first (+1, etc.), but this entry is not italicized. In addition, it has a second item, +8, at the other end of the entry. What exactly is this telling me?
You're probably right that it should be in italics. This character has a +1 bladed scarf, and her attack bonus with it, including her base attack bonus, strength modifier, and the weapon's enhancement bonus, is +8. So, when she attacks, roll d20 and add 8. If she hits, she deals 1d6+2 damage.
2. Reading the description for Sheila Heidmarch, on page 62, her stat block shows the following:
Melee +1 merciful defending quarterstaff +8/+3 (1d6+2 plus 1d6 nonlethal)
When I see an entry like this, with a +8/+3, does that mean that this beast/monster/NPC is allowed two attacks per turn with this weapon? Or is this listed because a quarterstaff is a double weapon?
The +8/+3 indicates that she can make two attacks with her quarterstaff if she makes a full attack as a full-round action. Characters get additional (aka "iterative") attacks if they have a sufficiently high base attack bonus.
This is explained in detail here.
3. Finally, I'm not certain about how monsters/NPCs gain their melee bonuses. As an example, the Cave Morays on page 53 have the following entry:[/b]
Melee bite +5 (2d6+3)
Where does the +5 come from for this attack? How is it calculated?
Referencing Sheila again, where do her +8/+3 come from? How...
Monsters have base attack bonuses, too, only they get them from their hit dice rather than levels in a class like Fighter or Rogue or what have you.
There is also a difference between how "natural attacks" (bites, claws, tail slaps, etc) and weapons work. This part gets a little confusing, as it's kind of arbitrary.
Natural attacks do not get iterative attacks for having a high base attack bonus the way attacks with weapons do. So, for example, someone with a +11 base attack bonus would get one attack at +11, a second attack at +6, and a third attack at +1 (and they would add any bonus from Strength or other sources to each roll). However, a monster with a bite attack who has a base attack bonus of +11 would just get the one bite at +11.
This stuff is explained here, but like I said, this is a source of confusion for a lot of new players, and even some experienced players, so take your time with it and don't be afraid to ask more questions.
In Sheila's case, she has a +6 base attack bonus (BAB for short), which means she gets an iterative attack at +1. She has a +1 bonus to hit thanks to her strength modifier, and the weapon she's using has a +1 enhancement bonus, for an additional +2 to each attack. Thus, she gets a total of +8 to hit with her first attack, and +3 to hit with her second attack, which is written in short form as +8/+3.
I hope that helped!
ok FIRST OFF!! WELCOME to pathfinder, I hope you enjoy playing :)
1. the +8 after the entry of the weapon is the bonus to hit, the way it shows attacks are always the same way as "name of weapon" "attack bonus (or the bonus you add to your d20 roll)" then followed up by the weapons damage dice + any damage modifiers then "plus" anything extra such as sneak attack
2. Yes she gets 2 attacks...if it says +8/+3 she get one attack with the +8 bonus and then a second attack at +3
3. They gain their melee bonuses the same way as any other character unless they have feats that change it so if the attack is "melee: bite +5 (2d6+3)" you just look at the stat blocks to see how it adds up
Cave Moray CR 2
XP 600
N Medium magical beast
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, tremorsense 60 ft.; Perception +9DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 13, flat-footed 12 (+3 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 19 (3d10+3)
Fort +4; Ref +6; Will +2OFFENSE
Speed 20 ft.
Melee bite +5 (2d6+3)
Special Attacks ambush, recoil attackSTATISTICS
Str 14, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +5; CMD 18
Feats Skill Focus (Perception, Stealth)
Skills Perception +9, Stealth +10 (+14 in rocky or stony areas); Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth in rocky or stony areas
Cave Moray has a BAB of +3 and 14 str (you get a +1 bonus to hit and damage for every even number above 10) so +2 to hit and damage
so +3 and +2 make the bonus to hit a total of +5
for the damage you will notice its +3 instead of the str bonus of +2...this is because when using natural attacks the creatures main attack gets 1.5x the str bonus so that make it a +3
If you have anymore questions feel free to post on the forum or ask me personally...I am not a rules guru but I have played quite a bit and if I'm not 100% sure I won't lie to you I will point you to the forums for help :)
I took to long for my reply and some people ninja'd me /cry...ah and I see I did forget to explain how you gain iterative attacks so thank you others for letting him know :)
Yeah, I gained like 5 levels of ninja today; just a few more and I can take Master Tricks!
But I think it helps in these cases to have several replies. I'm often afraid that my reply won't make sense, and sometimes all it takes is someone to come along and say the same thing, but in a way that happens to be phrased in a way that is more clear to the OP. Despite my best intentions, not all of my sentences make perfect airplanes.
Wow, thanks for the helpful answers everyone! Thank you also for the kind welcome to Pathfinder and the forums. I think you've cleared things up nicely for me, I'll have to keep all these things in mind when I re-read the Core Rulebook and Shards of Sin.
I guess I only had one follow-up question, regarding Sheila. Everyone indicates that her second attack is coming from an iterative attack due to her high BAB. I assume that it's better to take this second iterative attack due to a high BAB, rather than making two attacks with her Quarterstaff (a double weapon) due to the attack penalties incurred from those type of attacks?
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Wow, thanks for the helpful answers everyone! Thank you also for the kind welcome to Pathfinder and the forums. I think you've cleared things up nicely for me, I'll have to keep all these things in mind when I re-read the Core Rulebook and Shards of Sin.
I guess I only had one follow-up question, regarding Sheila. Everyone indicates that her second attack is coming from an iterative attack due to her high BAB. I assume that it's better to take this second iterative attack due to a high BAB, rather than making two attacks with her Quarterstaff (a double weapon) due to the attack penalties incurred from those type of attacks?
Not having her full stats in front of me, I'm not sure which would be better, but she can do both.
Using a double weapon (or wielding two weapons) allows a second attack made at the attacker's highest BAB with the off hand/other end of the weapon, with penalties to all attacks (-4 to main hand, -8 to off hand, if the off hand weapon is light, or the weapon is a double weapon). The Two Weapon Fighting feat reduces these penalties to a flat -2 across the board. So if Shiela has TWF, she could either make two attacks at +8/+3, or three attacks at +6/+6/+1. If she does not have TWF, then she can make her three attacks at +4/+0/-1 (or two at +8/+3 of course).
Not having her full stats in front of me, I'm not sure which would be better, but she can do both.
Using a double weapon (or wielding two weapons) allows a second attack made at the attacker's highest BAB with the off hand/other end of the weapon, with penalties to all attacks (-4 to main hand, -8 to off hand, if the off hand weapon is light, or the weapon is a double weapon). The Two Weapon Fighting feat reduces these penalties to a flat -2 across the board. So if Shiela has TWF, she could either make two attacks at +8/+3, or three attacks at +6/+6/+1. If she does not have TWF, then she can make her three attacks at +4/+0/-1 (or two at +8/+3 of course).
Unfortunately I only own the hard copy of Shards of Sin, so I can't post her stat block up. However, I can tell you that looking at Sheila's feats shows that she does not have TWF.
So, based on what you've said Dust Raven, one option for Sheila is two attacks based on her high BAB. The second option would be three attacks. If she makes three attacks, I assume two of them come from her BAB (her first attack, and a second iterative attack), with the third attack coming from the double weapon (which allows an extra attack per round)? Is this correct?
You can TWF without the Feat. The Feat just reduces the Penalties on the First Attack.
You can TWF without the Feat. The Feat just reduces the Penalties on the First Attack.
Thanks Azaelas. So it sounds like Sheila can make a third attack based on the use of a double weapon (with the first two coming from her high BAB). However, she would incur the higher two-weapon fighting penalties (-4, -8 for double weapon, 202 of the Core Rulebook) because she does not have the TWF feat.
Actually, she can fight as if she has the TWF feat using Flurry of Blows.
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That's correct, she can attack with both ends but the penalties without the TWF feat would be extreme (and probably not worth it).
So, based on what you've said Dust Raven, one option for Sheila is two attacks based on her high BAB. The second option would be three attacks. If she makes three attacks, I assume two of them come from her BAB (her first attack, and a second iterative attack), with the third attack coming from the double weapon (which allows an extra attack per round)? Is this correct?
Also correct.
Weirdo she is a Fighter(Tactician)3/Monk(Weapon Adept)4.
Weirdo she is a Fighter(Tactician)3/Monk(Weapon Adept)4.
In retrospect, it might not have been the wisest choice to start playing Pathfinder with an AP that depends on so many supplemental rules. Oh well, swimming in the deep end I guess. :)
Given what everyone has said, it sounds like Sheila could make two attacks at +8/+3, or three attacks using either her double weapon or flurry of blows. Sheila's stat block notes the following:
Fighter(Tactician)3/Monk(Weapon Adept)4
Melee +1 merciful defending quarterstaff +8/+3 (1d6+2 plus 1d6 nonlethal)
What would the attack bonuses look like in the following scenarios?
Three attacks (two BAB, one double weapon)
Three attacks (two BAB, one Flurry of Blows)
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Oh, she's a monk! With a quarterstaff (or any other monk weapon), she only gets the additional attack from flurry of blows if she is wearing no armor. If she's wearing no armor, the total attack bonuses are figured a little differently, as her BAB receives a bonus from her levels in monk. Basically, instead of adding in her BAB from the monk class, monks use their monk level in place of their BAB when making a flurry.
The total bonuses would be +7/+7/+2. Again, only if she is wearing no armor. Otherwise it goes back to normal TWF (no feat) penalties.
I don't see any armor listed, but her AC listing shows AC 20, flat-footed 16 (+1 defending quarterstaff, +1 deflection, +3 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 monk, +3 Wis).
The total bonuses would be +7/+7/+2. Again, only if she is wearing no armor. Otherwise it goes back to normal TWF (no feat) penalties.
Three attacks (two BAB, one double weapon)
Three attacks (two BAB, one Flurry of Blows)
+7, +7, +2
Is that correct?
EDIT: I'm fairly confused about the +7/+7/+2. Could you show how that is calculated?
EDIT:EDIT:Sorry, I missed that her Melee block shows this:
Melee +1 merciful defending quarterstaff +7/+2 (1d6+2 plus 1d6 nonlethal) and unarmed strike +7 (1d8+1)
Is this what you meant Dust Raven, when you noted total bonuses at +7/+7/+2?
The Monk rules for Flurry of Blows states that this allows one additional attack (unarmed or with monk weapon, such as quarterstaff). Why would the third attack be made using an unarmed strike, as listed in the AP stat block for Sheila, rather than the quarterstaff? Wouldn't it be more optimal to use the quarterstaff for the Flurry of Blows third attack?
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The calculations gets weird with a multiclass monk due to how the flurry of blows works.
Basically you calculate it like any other attack (BAB + Mods), but the BAB is the weird part.
Normally you'd take the +3 BAB from fighter 3 and add it to the +3 BAB from monk 4, but when a monk is using flurry of blows, the monk uses monk levels in place of his normal BAB. So it's +4 BAB from monk 4 when flurrying (+3 from fighter 3 for a total of +7).
Then it's just +7 BAB +1 STR Mod +1 Weapon Enh -2 Flurry of Blows for a total of +7. Since it's a flurry you get two of those, and since the BAB is 6 or higher, you get an iterative attack at -5 (or a total of +2). This gives you the +7/+7/+2.
Check up on the Monk's Flurry of Blows ability for more detailed information.
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With FoB, the attacks can be an unarmed strike or with the monk weapon, the monk's choice. In this specific case, Sheila has a mathematical advantage to choosing the quarterstaff over an unarmed strike. This advantage can change depending on what specific weapons a monk has in hand, and what target's he's striking.
Edit: if Sheila does strike with an unarmed strike as part of the flurry, that specific attack is only at a +6 rather than +7 (because the enhancement bonus from the quarter staff would not apply), reinforcing the quarterstaff's superiority over unarmed strikes in this build.
Ohhh, so with FoB you get two attacks with the quarterstaff at +7, then a third iterative attack at +2. Now I understand this, thank you.
What's with the listing I gave above? What are they showing with that attack option?
Melee +1 merciful defending quarterstaff +7/+2 (1d6+2 plus 1d6 nonlethal) and unarmed strike +7 (1d8+1)
thats 2 attacks from the quarterstaff and an unarmed strike...a monk can use feet, knees, elbows, or hands to do an unarmed strike, so even if both hands are taken up she can still kick see :)
so with that combo she is using 2 attacks with a weapon and then one with her unarmed strike, but even wielding the weapon she could make all 3 with just kicks or watever
thats 2 attacks from the quarterstaff and an unarmed strike...a monk can use feet, knees, elbows, or hands to do an unarmed strike, so even if both hands are taken up she can still kick see :)so with that combo she is using 2 attacks with a weapon and then one with her unarmed strike, but even wielding the weapon she could make all 3 with just kicks or watever
Thanks Drakkiel, that definitely makes sense. I just found it odd that for the 3 attack option in her stat block that they listed what appears to be a sub-optimal attack (unarmed strike rather than Quarterstaff for the third attack). I thought I was missing something obvious, but is it just that NPC/monster/etc attacks are not listed in the most optimal manner?
She was created before they released the clarification on Monks. Ironically, she only has one end enchanted from what I can tell...
She was created before they released the clarification on Monks. Ironically, she only has one end enchanted from what I can tell...
So you can enchant both ends of a double weapon eh? This keeps getting more...interesting. :)
Yep, double weapons are a weird one: each end is completely separate from the other in terms of magical bonuses. So what she effectively has there is a +1/Masterwork quarterstaff (one end is +1, the other isn't magical but is still masterwork.
Her choice of attack routine is pretty complex:
Standard action (Attack):
+1 quarterstaff +8 (1d6+2 plus 1d6 non-lethal) or
Mw quarterstaff +8 (1d6+1) or
Unarmed strike +7 (1d8+1)
Full-round action (Full-attack):
Flurry +1 quarterstaff +7/+7/+2 (1d6+2 plus 1d6 non-lethal) or
Flurry mw quarterstaff +7/+7/+2 (1d6+1) or
Flurry Unarmed strike +6/+6/+1 (1d8+1) or
+1 quarterstaff +8/+3 (1d6+2 plus 1d6 non-lethal) or
Mw quarterstaff +8/+3 (1d6+1) or
Unarmed strike +7/+2 (1d8+1) or
Double-weapon +1/mw quarterstaff +2/-3 (1d6+2 plus 1d6 non-lethal) and +2 (1d6+1)
When flurrying, any single attack in the routine can be replaced by any of the other flurry attacks at the same point in the routine, so there is nothing stopping her going +6 (Unarmed)/+7 (masterwork)/+2 (+1 merciful).
Now can someone check I got that right?
The other end isn't even Masterwork...
Adding the masterwork quality to a double weapon costs twice the normal increase (+600 gp).
I checked before I posted: there are no provisions in the rules for only one end to be masterwork, so either the whole thing is masterwork (using the rule above) or none of it is.
Special Materials... Masterwork Transformation and such.
Thanks for the breakdown Chemlak, hopefully one of these days I'll understand each of the options you listed and how they are calculated. :)
Thanks to everyone else to for welcoming me to the forums, and for helping me with all the questions I've had so far. Now to get some characters rolled up and start playing Pathfinder!
I may well have the quarterstaff as double-weapon incorrect: when not flurrying, she reverts to default, so the masterwork end is going to be taking another -4 penalty.
The long and short of it is that it's complex, but not overly complicated:
Calculate BAB (+6 normally, +7 when flurrying)
Add Str bonus to hit (+1 in all cases)
Add Enhancement bonus to hit (+1 for +1 magic and mw weapon, +0 for unarmed)
Apply relevant Two-weapon Fighting: add an attack at full BAB, then apply penalties (-2 for all attacks when flurrying with all of these combinations, -4 to "primary weapon"/-8 to "secondary weapon" when not flurrying)
Calculate "iterative" attacks: one attack at -5 in this case. (The general case is "for every 5 points of BAB above +1, add an attack at -5 per previous iterative attack.")
kezzran are you aware there are specific boards for the various aps? The shattered star section is here. If you have questions specific to the AP you can ask there. The people posting there will likely have access to and be familiar with the AP. You might also do well as a new dm to pathfinder to look through those forums and see what challenges other dms faced and how they dealt with them.
Just as a side note, a quarterstaff with only one end enchanted would still (obviously, I would think) be entirely masterwork.
kezzran are you aware there are specific boards for the various aps? The shattered star section is here. If you have questions specific to the AP you can ask there. The people posting there will likely have access to and be familiar with the AP. You might also do well as a new dm to pathfinder to look through those forums and see what challenges other dms faced and how they dealt with them.
I am, thank you! I did note in my original post that while the questions I had were tied to this particular AP, they really were questions that went to my understanding of core principals of the game (calculating attack bonuses, reading a stat block, etc.). I was unsure where to post these questions, the Shattered Star forum or here to be honest, but figured this was the best location since my questions were really about rules, with examples from this particular AP.
I'll definitely be looking at that forum when it comes time to run the AP, for helpful information on running the adventure itself. Thanks!