kezzran's page

That's what I love about this community. Quick, precise answers delivered in a friendly manner. Thanks, just the answers I needed!

I dug around on the Internet and here on the forums, but couldn't find a specific answer to a question I have regarding TWF and AOO.

Our party has a level 2 Rogue who has the following:

Two-Weapon Fighting
Combat Reflexes

So, we understand that with a Full Round Action he may make 2 attacks per round. We also understand that Combat Reflexes allows him to make additional AOO attacks equal to his Dexterity bonus (in this case +3, for a total of 4). What we aren't certain of is if he can make 2 attacks, via TWF, for every AOO he undertakes (I'm inclined to say no, per reasons below).

Per the PRD:

Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.

It would seem to me that he makes only a single attack per AOO (main OR offhand), rather than 2 attacks (main AND offhand) per AOO. Correct?

Just the info I was looking for, thanks Seppuku.

Sorry Azaelas Fayth, not sure I follow which sentence you are referring to.

Still reading through the book, I have a question about Barbarian Rage.

While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points.

Does this mean that the Barbarian receives the increased HP from both the Constitution increase and 2 hit points per hit die?

For example, say I have a 1st level Barbarian with a Constitution of 16. The morale bonus to Constitution brings his Constitution up to 20. Does he gain +2 HP for the Constitution increase and 2 hit points from his Hit Die, for a total gain of 4 HP? Or does he simply gain 2 HP from the hit die?

I did a little searching on the Innertubes, but got enough conflicting answers to decide to simply ask here.

I don't like the circus freaks approach to party building, or being totally shoehorned into perfect race/class combinations. Avoid really bad combinations, but as you can see above, the non-obvious combinations can work well in their own ways.

Yea, I let players roll up characters as they see fit...we can make most anything work.

I suggest you to start using only the Core Rulebook or at most the Advanced Player Guide (plus the setting books, if you want to play on Golarion), with the latter books and more setting books the number of options increase dramatically and it will overwhelm you.

This is my exact plan. Start with the Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and Shards of Sin, and go from there. Once we get a few levels in we can start looking at expanding the rule set.

I also let new players rebuild pretty often as they find things don't work as they expected, aren't survivable, or just aren't fun.

I definitely had planned to do this, because we'll all be learning the system. We have some very experienced players and some very new players:

Dwarf Barbarian - playing D&D since the 1980s
Half-Elf Paladin - played 4E only
Half-Elf Cleric - playing D&D since the 1980s
Human Rogue - playing D&D since the 1980s
Elf Ranger - played 4E only
Elf Sorcerer - played 4E only

Have fun and don't sweat the build optimization.

Agreed, I never worry about build optimization. Fun optimization is more my thing. :)

Thanks to the rest of you for further insights on the rules I asked about, much appreciated.

Lots of information here, I'll have to dig into it later today. Just did a quick read this morning. I should mention that we are only using the Core Rulebook classes/races to start with, and that we are doing the Shattered Star AP.

I dunno, I don't know what more I should tell you. You gotta be specific as to what you want to know. Best thing to do is to go through and make PC's yourself, and try to figure out what they really need by examining their options and what sort of game environment they are in.

I've been doing this, to get a feel for creating a character and for working through some encounters. Definitely a good plan.

Oh, you are going to want to get yourself a wet erase mat with a grid on it, some wet erase markers (stick to black, no reds or other colors as they tend to stain) and some random (no duplicates) minis of some kind, plus a magnetized battleboard. That thing is too damned useful to ignore. I think Pathfinder has some cardboard minis you can get lots of for really cheap in the long run.

Yep, I have a dry-erase battlemap, PC/NPC/monster pogs, all that good stuff. All set there.

There is ONE thing I think will save you a lot of grief. You have to be firm as to what you will and won't allow from the get go. No hemming and hawing. If you won't allow Monks, because you think it ruins the ambiance, don't allow them to whine about it. Trust me, this really helps! Also, be certain that the players know that sometimes you might fudge die rolls in order to make the game more exciting/dramatic. And frequently when someone has a case of really bad luck, claim you suddenly had an eye spasm and to reroll. Fudging goes both ways, and the players should know you aren't there to make them miserable, but instead to give them as much laughs and drama as possible.

Haha, no worries there! I've been a DM since the early 1980s, so I'm pretty well-versed in the ways of players. :) I'm also pretty good at knowing when the press the party and when to ease up on them. I've GM'd about every game you can think of, but this is my first crack at Pathfinder.

So far the party is shaping up like this (6 total players, but someone is usually missing so party will be 5 generally) so it should be interesting:

Dwarf Barbarian
Half-Elf Paladin
Half-Elf Cleric
Human Rogue
Elf Ranger
Elf Sorcerer

Good points Kydeem de'Morcaine, I'll be sure to keep these ideas in mind if I ever post any potential characters for evaluation by the community. Of course that would require someone ELSE to DM for once, but I can always dream, right? :)

I dunno, what would you want to know?

You've given me a pretty interesting list of things to consider already. I usually have a hard enough time remembering all the rules (I'm the DM) without getting into all the various tricks one can use to really round out a character. Always nice to see stuff like you've posted, as it usually opens my eyes to stuff I never even considered. Thanks!

Perfect examples, thanks bugleyman, Azaelas Fayth, and Nefreet!

Oh, one more thing regarding damage. Could someone provide an example of this?

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.

It's the result of something not getting directly ported over (at least so far as I can find yet) from the 3.5 PHB.

pg. 304 at the beginning of the "General Guidelines and Glossary" the second section which is entitled "Multiplying":
Quote:
Sometimes a special rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you're applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding one less than its value to the first multiple. Thus a double (x2) and a double (x2) applied to the same number results in a triple (x3, because 2+1=3).
Near as I can tell there is no such section in the PF SRD Glossary.

Thanks for the answers all, I understand clearly now. Kayerloth was able to crystallize the multiplication rule for me, and that made all the other posts very clear. Thanks also for the confirmation on my understanding of the 1.5x damage from Strength thing.

Here's a neat trick about the "new" rules... If you have a character that isn't proficient in shields, and doesn't use magic (like a Rogue), you can STILL give them a shield. All you have to do is have it made of mithral, meaning a Heavy Steel Shield made of mithral is 1020 gp.

Since there's no armor check penalty, there's no penalty for not having a proficiency in a heavy mithral shield. Neat, huh?

(this was meant for the OP)

Interesting! Probably all sorts of tricks like that once you know the rules, eh? :)

Hey all, back with a few questions as I read the Core Rulebook for the second time. If you missed my first rules questions post, I'll tell you I've been playing D&D since the early 1980s, but didn't play much 3/3.5 and the little I did play was over 10 years ago.

Anyway, on with the questions.

Rounding: Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.

This I understand, pretty simple.

Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon, including a sling. (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive 1–1/2 times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.)

Based on the rounding rules above, it would seem that the 1-1/2 times the Strength bonus advantage would come into play only with modifiers above +2. In other words, Strength 13 with a +1 modifier, multiplied by 1.5 would yield 1.5, which you would then round down to +1 to damage. Strength 14, with a modifier +2, would yield a total of +3 to damage. Is this correct?

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.

The Strength rule in the PRD led me to Damage, which is where another rule has me stumped. Could someone give me an example of what it means to "...double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage."? I simply don't understand this at all, hopefully it's not ridiculously obvious.

I tried some searchfu on the forums here but couldn't find the answers, my apologies if these are obvious questions that come up with every crop of fresh faces. :)

kezzran are you aware there are specific boards for the various aps? The shattered star section is here. If you have questions specific to the AP you can ask there. The people posting there will likely have access to and be familiar with the AP. You might also do well as a new dm to pathfinder to look through those forums and see what challenges other dms faced and how they dealt with them.

I am, thank you! I did note in my original post that while the questions I had were tied to this particular AP, they really were questions that went to my understanding of core principals of the game (calculating attack bonuses, reading a stat block, etc.). I was unsure where to post these questions, the Shattered Star forum or here to be honest, but figured this was the best location since my questions were really about rules, with examples from this particular AP.

I'll definitely be looking at that forum when it comes time to run the AP, for helpful information on running the adventure itself. Thanks!

Thanks for the breakdown Chemlak, hopefully one of these days I'll understand each of the options you listed and how they are calculated. :)

Thanks to everyone else to for welcoming me to the forums, and for helping me with all the questions I've had so far. Now to get some characters rolled up and start playing Pathfinder!

She was created before they released the clarification on Monks. Ironically, she only has one end enchanted from what I can tell...

So you can enchant both ends of a double weapon eh? This keeps getting more...interesting. :)

thats 2 attacks from the quarterstaff and an unarmed strike...a monk can use feet, knees, elbows, or hands to do an unarmed strike, so even if both hands are taken up she can still kick see :)

so with that combo she is using 2 attacks with a weapon and then one with her unarmed strike, but even wielding the weapon she could make all 3 with just kicks or watever

Thanks Drakkiel, that definitely makes sense. I just found it odd that for the 3 attack option in her stat block that they listed what appears to be a sub-optimal attack (unarmed strike rather than Quarterstaff for the third attack). I thought I was missing something obvious, but is it just that NPC/monster/etc attacks are not listed in the most optimal manner?

Ohhh, so with FoB you get two attacks with the quarterstaff at +7, then a third iterative attack at +2. Now I understand this, thank you.

What's with the listing I gave above? What are they showing with that attack option?

Melee +1 merciful defending quarterstaff +7/+2 (1d6+2 plus 1d6 nonlethal) and unarmed strike +7 (1d8+1)

I don't see any armor listed, but her AC listing shows AC 20, flat-footed 16 (+1 defending quarterstaff, +1 deflection, +3 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 monk, +3 Wis).

The total bonuses would be +7/+7/+2. Again, only if she is wearing no armor. Otherwise it goes back to normal TWF (no feat) penalties.

Three attacks (two BAB, one double weapon)

Three attacks (two BAB, one Flurry of Blows)
+7, +7, +2

Is that correct?

EDIT: I'm fairly confused about the +7/+7/+2. Could you show how that is calculated?

EDIT:EDIT:Sorry, I missed that her Melee block shows this:

Melee +1 merciful defending quarterstaff +7/+2 (1d6+2 plus 1d6 nonlethal) and unarmed strike +7 (1d8+1)

Is this what you meant Dust Raven, when you noted total bonuses at +7/+7/+2?

The Monk rules for Flurry of Blows states that this allows one additional attack (unarmed or with monk weapon, such as quarterstaff). Why would the third attack be made using an unarmed strike, as listed in the AP stat block for Sheila, rather than the quarterstaff? Wouldn't it be more optimal to use the quarterstaff for the Flurry of Blows third attack?

Weirdo she is a Fighter(Tactician)3/Monk(Weapon Adept)4.

In retrospect, it might not have been the wisest choice to start playing Pathfinder with an AP that depends on so many supplemental rules. Oh well, swimming in the deep end I guess. :)

Given what everyone has said, it sounds like Sheila could make two attacks at +8/+3, or three attacks using either her double weapon or flurry of blows. Sheila's stat block notes the following:

Fighter(Tactician)3/Monk(Weapon Adept)4
Melee +1 merciful defending quarterstaff +8/+3 (1d6+2 plus 1d6 nonlethal)

What would the attack bonuses look like in the following scenarios?

Three attacks (two BAB, one double weapon)

Three attacks (two BAB, one Flurry of Blows)

You can TWF without the Feat. The Feat just reduces the Penalties on the First Attack.

Thanks Azaelas. So it sounds like Sheila can make a third attack based on the use of a double weapon (with the first two coming from her high BAB). However, she would incur the higher two-weapon fighting penalties (-4, -8 for double weapon, 202 of the Core Rulebook) because she does not have the TWF feat.

Not having her full stats in front of me, I'm not sure which would be better, but she can do both.

Using a double weapon (or wielding two weapons) allows a second attack made at the attacker's highest BAB with the off hand/other end of the weapon, with penalties to all attacks (-4 to main hand, -8 to off hand, if the off hand weapon is light, or the weapon is a double weapon). The Two Weapon Fighting feat reduces these penalties to a flat -2 across the board. So if Shiela has TWF, she could either make two attacks at +8/+3, or three attacks at +6/+6/+1. If she does not have TWF, then she can make her three attacks at +4/+0/-1 (or two at +8/+3 of course).

Unfortunately I only own the hard copy of Shards of Sin, so I can't post her stat block up. However, I can tell you that looking at Sheila's feats shows that she does not have TWF.

So, based on what you've said Dust Raven, one option for Sheila is two attacks based on her high BAB. The second option would be three attacks. If she makes three attacks, I assume two of them come from her BAB (her first attack, and a second iterative attack), with the third attack coming from the double weapon (which allows an extra attack per round)? Is this correct?

Wow, thanks for the helpful answers everyone! Thank you also for the kind welcome to Pathfinder and the forums. I think you've cleared things up nicely for me, I'll have to keep all these things in mind when I re-read the Core Rulebook and Shards of Sin.

I guess I only had one follow-up question, regarding Sheila. Everyone indicates that her second attack is coming from an iterative attack due to her high BAB. I assume that it's better to take this second iterative attack due to a high BAB, rather than making two attacks with her Quarterstaff (a double weapon) due to the attack penalties incurred from those type of attacks?

Hello all,

I'm new to Pathfinder (just bought Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and Shattered Star: Shards of Sin a couple weeks ago), but I've been playing D&D since the early 1980s. So, I'm fairly familiar with the general systems, but not as versed when it comes to 3.0/3.5, having only played those versions briefly and not for a good decade at this point. So far I'm loving these books, the art, the writing, everything is very cool.

Anyway, I have a few questions springing from my reading of Shattered Star: Shards of Sin. Hindsight indicates I may have purchased an AP too far along the Pathfinder knowledge curve, but I'm determined to wrap my head around this book because it has captured my interest. While my questions are being generated by this AP, they really apply to my understanding of the game rules in general, so hopefully I'm in the right forum.

On to the questions.

1. Reading the description for Ayala Javeski, on page 33, her stat block shows the following:

Melee +1 bladed scarf +8 (1d6+2)

This entry is confusing to me. My understanding is that magical weapons show their bonus first (+1, etc.), but this entry is not italicized. In addition, it has a second item, +8, at the other end of the entry. What exactly is this telling me?

2. Reading the description for Sheila Heidmarch, on page 62, her stat block shows the following:

Melee +1 merciful defending quarterstaff +8/+3 (1d6+2 plus 1d6 nonlethal)

When I see an entry like this, with a +8/+3, does that mean that this beast/monster/NPC is allowed two attacks per turn with this weapon? Or is this listed because a quarterstaff is a double weapon?

3. Finally, I'm not certain about how monsters/NPCs gain their melee bonuses. As an example, the Cave Morays on page 53 have the following entry:[/b]

Melee bite +5 (2d6+3)

Where does the +5 come from for this attack? How is it calculated?

Referencing Sheila again, where do her +8/+3 come from? How are they calculated? If I calculate per the Attack Bonus rules on page 178 of the Core Rulebook, she would seem to have a +7 (BAB +6 and then her magical weapon bonus +1). This leaves +1, which I believe comes from her Strength, but I have no idea about the /+3, which has me completely stumped. :)

4. Finally, for an NPC like Sheila, when her Melee block has the following entry, I assume the damage 1d6+2 is the standard 1d6 for a quarterstaff, with a +1 magic enhancement and a +1 Strength bonus?

Melee +1 merciful defending quarterstaff +8/+3 (1d6+2 plus 1d6 nonlethal)

If I've hopelessly confused things, let me know and I'll try to clarify. Thank you all in advance for any assistance you can provide!