Re-balancing my party


Advice


My party has a problem.

It consists of a dual-wielding ranger beast-master, a melee-focused oracle, a cleric, and a magus. They're all level 14, and we're playing the fifth book of Serpent's Skull. A typical CR14 encounter goes like this:
1. The ranger wins initiative. He rushes the monster and hits it.
2. The ranger's large tiger animal companion comes next. It has feats that allow it to get multiple attacks on a charge. It probably grapples something.
3. The oracle casts a spell to increase his damage and rushes into flanking position with the ranger.
4. The monsters, cleric, and magus go in some order. The cleric usually channels negative energy, using Selective Channelling to exclude friendlies. Since the ranger, large tiger, and oracle are taking up all the space around the monsters, the magus can't get into melee range easily, so he just casts some weak spell.
5. The ranger full-rounds. With six attacks and weapons with a 15-20 crit range, he usually crits at least once. This provokes an AoO from the oracle, since both have Outflank. If the oracle also crits, then they start a blend. If the party is facing a bunch of relatively weak opponents, something has probably died by this point.
6. The tiger full-rounds. Something is probably being grappled.
7. The oracle full-rounds. He doesn't get nearly as many attacks as the ranger but does far more damage, in addition to being able to penetrate most forms of DR. At this point, several weak enemies or one big enemy are probably dead.
8. Any enemies that are still alive contemplate retreating. This is suicide, as the ranger and oracle (and I think the tiger as well) have Combat Reflexes. There's precious little left for the cleric and magus to do, unless something managed to kill the ranger again.
9. Anything that got away gets run down by the ranger, tiger, or oracle.

The result of this is that the ranger's player gets to make about 12 rolls per round (including rolls for the tiger), while the cleric's and magus' players are lucky to make one or two. Each roll seems to take about the same amount of time, so most of the game time is spent on the ranger's player. The others aren't getting to do anything and are getting bored. This wasn't as much of a problem at lower levels, when the ranger and tiger had fewer attacks and thus left more time for the other players.

Any suggestions on how to modify the rules or encounters to balance the players' experiences?

Some ideas that I had:
* If I remove attacks of opportunity from the game, then monsters could move around more and deny full-round attacks to the party. I'd have to let the players swap out feats that they took specifically for AoOs, though. Also, with the tiger's grab ability, something is likely to be unable to move.
* I could re-design encounters to have more enemy casters and less melee. This is a lot of work, and last time I tried that, they still wiped everything out in less than three rounds.
* I could give more encounters that involve lots of enemies and lots of room to maneuver. This would also be a lot of work, as most encounters in the AP involve either a lot of enemies in a constrained area, or one big enemy. Last time I gave them an encounter with lots of enemies, the ranger managed to die twice (the oracle cast Breath of Life both times).
* I could give encounters that start at a long range. This would require throwing out most of the AP, because most of what's left is essentially dungeon-crawling. Also, when both the PCs and the monsters are relying on 60-foot darkvision, it's hard to start things at a distance.
* I could throw in more situations that don't involve combat. But Pathfinder isn't very good at situations involving mental skills (which the magus or cleric might excel at); they usually result in a diplomacy, bluff, or knowledge roll that takes a couple minutes at most. On the other hand, scouting runs, which the ranger handles, can go on for hours.


I'm not sure you can grapple as part of a pounce.

Edit: Also, I'm not sure an outflank attack can give another outflank attack.

Also, your monsters should withdraw or move away to deny them full attacks on the second round, AoO's beat being subjected to full attacks.

Also, they're just being smart, don't change the premise from under them, just be smarter yourself, use enemies who employ tactics and use terrain, spellcasters who use powerful protection spells, illusions and summoned monsters.


Give the cleric and magus gear to let them do more damage. Then give the enemies more HP.


Also, you're failing to realize that at this high a level, just throwing bigger/meaner blobs of hitpoints at the party isn't really good encounter design.

The party has powerful spellcasters, they can only reasonably be countered by other powerful spellcasters at this point


If you trust the player not to cheat or metagame, have the ranger preroll a round of attacks/damage.


From the outset, don't modify the rules. Modify tactics.

Valauran wrote:

Some ideas that I had:

* If I remove attacks of opportunity from the game, then monsters could move around more and deny full-round attacks to the party. I'd have to let the players swap out feats that they took specifically for AoOs, though. Also, with the tiger's grab ability, something is likely to be unable to move.

Don't do this, that just penalises builds that rely on them. What you must remember is:

1) Attacks of opportunity are avoided by Acrobatics checks, and by Full Withdrawal actions. Mobility also helps.
2) Attacks of opportunity work both ways: Your charging ranger and his tiger are perfect for using a couple of set longspears against them,AoO's as they charge, and double damage on top? That will do nicely...and a Snake Style foe with high AC is deadly...as are invisible foes that you rush past.

Your party is vicious on the offensive, but only fools rush in. Traps that open under them will really make life awkward.

On the same token, maneuvers are there for you to use too. Trips with chains are an old classic, as are grappling foes. As for a whip-armed dissarming-expert facing your ranger with Combat Reflexes, he'll have just his hands by the time he finishes the charge.

Also, have enemies prepared, with readied actions so that initiative doesn't matter.

Valauran wrote:
* I could re-design encounters to have more enemy casters and less melee. This is a lot of work, and last time I tried that, they still wiped everything out in less than three rounds.

To be fair, three rounds is as long as many combats last. But if you want to extend things, give foes different defences. Put up illusions that the party waste a round attacking, have them summon monster allies, partition up the battlefield with control spells that funnel the party one way.

Valauran wrote:
* I could give more encounters that involve lots of enemies and lots of room to maneuver. This would also be a lot of work, as most encounters in the AP involve either a lot of enemies in a constrained area, or one big enemy. Last time I gave them an encounter with lots of enemies, the ranger managed to die twice (the oracle cast Breath of Life both times).

So the party have found tactics that play to their strengths. That's OK, play to their weaknesses: a group of sohei monks armed with long-spears with potions of spider climb can turn a normally-cramped dungeon room into a forest of spears driving back the party (oh, and they have great AC and great CMD too, so the tiger will have fun trying to pounce - especially if they have boar-spears).

In fact it sounds like you are challenging them well already, as the ranger has been killed in encounters.

Also, foes that can hit-and-run, harass the party, and in other ways make life interesting for them. If they use common tactics that are 'not normally defended against' then by all means defend against them. One party I DMed for always used Rope Trick to rest up mid-dungeon. Until the lich came along, scryed them out, and cast dispel magic on it after his minions filled the room. Ever fallen out of bed into a mummy? Not a pleasant experience.

Valauran wrote:
* I could give encounters that start at a long range. This would require throwing out most of the AP, because most of what's left is essentially dungeon-crawling. Also, when both the PCs and the monsters are relying on 60-foot darkvision, it's hard to start things at a distance.

Distance means more than just range. A passageway with bars in, traps, spiked floors and other difficult terrain will cause issues of range. A foe that can retreat as the party advances is fun too.

Valauran wrote:
* I could throw in more situations that don't involve combat. But Pathfinder isn't very good at situations involving mental skills (which the magus or cleric might excel at); they usually result in a diplomacy, bluff, or knowledge roll that takes a couple minutes at most. On the other hand, scouting runs, which the ranger handles, can go on for hours.

That depends on whether you make your party RP through the encounter or let them get away with: "We make a Diplomacy check. 23. is he friendly now?"

If the ranger's scouting runs are taking time, why is that? Is the player going into huge detail about what they are doing, or are you?


Am I right in thinking that the problem isn't the player-baddie balance that's the problem, it's the ranger/oracle-other PCs that's the problem?

You could always allow the players of the cleric & magus to create new characters.

Otherwise, it's a case of sitting down with all your players and sorting it out that way.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

don't try to change the encounters or nerf the players who put thought into their builds. if the magus isn't competitive with the oracle in combat he either has made some mistakes in building or in how he's playing the character... take some time to make sure that the player understands how all his abilities work and how to use them effectively, and check to make sure he doesn't have any glaring shortcomings in his build- if he does, look for a way to fix those (like making up a reason to let him change some feats/arcana/whatever) instead of punishing others. usually, when people make a (typical) cleric they do it knowing that in combat they're going to be primarily a support person with little die rolling- without knowing his build its tough to give any specific advice, but if he's feeling left out in combat 'just' buffing and healing there are some options... a lesser quicken MM rod is well within the budget at that level and that would let him cast one extra 1-3 level spell 3/day (or, if you're not getting into a lot of combats/day and they don't last long, the actual feat might be a good choice), the quicken channel feat would let him kick out some healing with a move action (and still be able to cast, possibly twice with one of the quicken options...)- if he still feels overshadowed with those options, he could look at Planar Ally and/or Summon Monster VII to give him more combat options (those strategies can be combined too: SM VII 1st round; quickened low level buff on the summon, 'quickened' channel heal, and mid/high level control spell like wall of stone or greater command all in round 2)


Valauran wrote:

My party has a problem.

It consists of a dual-wielding ranger beast-master, a melee-focused oracle, a cleric, and a magus. They're all level 14, and we're playing the fifth book of Serpent's Skull. A typical CR14 encounter goes like this:
1. The ranger wins initiative. He rushes the monster and hits it.
2. The ranger's large tiger animal companion comes next. It has feats that allow it to get multiple attacks on a charge. It probably grapples something.

IIRC, tigers specifically grapple on a charge. Although this might not apply to animal companions. But that's not the real issue...

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3. The oracle casts a spell to increase his damage and rushes into flanking position with the ranger.

I'm not used to oracles that think they're clerics :)

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4. The monsters, cleric, and magus go in some order. The cleric usually channels negative energy, using Selective Channelling to exclude friendlies. Since the ranger, large tiger, and oracle are taking up all the space around the monsters, the magus can't get into melee range easily, so he just casts some weak spell.

The cleric should consider casting a spell instead. At 14th-level he could rock a Destruction spell, instantly killing an enemy and removing them from the fight. Instead, he's doing fairly weak AoE damage. Find out why they're doing this.

The magus needs to work on mobility, seriously. Spider Climb lasts a couple of hours by that level. With that spell, getting past the enemy isn't too hard. There's other spells, that's just the first one that came to mind, because the magus IMC uses that spell sometimes.

And the monsters should not all clump up together. That's probably why the cleric keeps using Channel. Monsters should spread out. Perhaps 15 feet should separate each of them. That's the usual spread in the military, I've heard. And if some of the monsters have ranged attacks, they can stand off at a much further range. (What's the range increment of a longbow? 100 feet? I'm thinking focus fire.)

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5. The ranger full-rounds. With six attacks and weapons with a 15-20 crit range, he usually crits at least once. This provokes an AoO from the oracle, since both have Outflank. If the oracle also crits, then they start a blend. If the party is facing a bunch of relatively weak opponents, something has probably died by this point.

Alright. Does the ranger hit a lot? He does have full BAB, but he's taking penalties to hit (unless they did something about that in Pathfinder). I don't see how he hits that much.

Also, are the ranger's two attack bonuses identical? (If not, try to ensure they are somehow. As in, if he has a +3 and a +4 sword, give him another +4 sword, of the same type.) Now he can roll two dice simultaneously and save a bit of time. (Only three roll sequences instead of six, not counting crits or the tiger.)

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6. The tiger full-rounds. Something is probably being grappled.

I'm currently playing a 9th-level druid. IME animal companions don't kick this much butt. They don't hit that much and don't deal that much damage. I'm not sure why this ranger's animal companion seems to be kicking so much butt.

Also, the tiger's two claw bonuses are undoubtedly enjoying exactly the same attack bonus. Maybe the bite as well, I dunno. Same advice as with the ranger.

My own PC has a bear companion. Probably not as good as a tiger, but whatever. I have two black d20s with white numbers, and one with yellow numbers. I always roll the three dice simultaneously, specifically pointing out that the yellow-numbered die is for the bite attack. It saves time. (And I do the same for my druid, who usually wildshapes into a bear and gets three attacks.)

And I have to do the same when my druid summons a bear. Since he's a bear shaman, that happens a fair bit.

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7. The oracle full-rounds. He doesn't get nearly as many attacks as the ranger but does far more damage, in addition to being able to penetrate most forms of DR. At this point, several weak enemies or one big enemy are probably dead.

Yeah, I can see this :)

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* I could re-design encounters to have more enemy casters and less melee. This is a lot of work, and last time I tried that, they still wiped everything out in less than three rounds.

Buy the NPC Codex. Save time that way! I don't even run Pathfinder (I run 4e) and I still bought it because it's that good!

Also note that Pathfinder is frankly not balanced at this level. Boost all APLs by several levels. I'm not kidding.

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* I could give more encounters that involve lots of enemies and lots of room to maneuver. This would also be a lot of work, as most encounters in the AP involve either a lot of enemies in a constrained area, or one big enemy. Last time I gave them an encounter with lots of enemies, the ranger managed to die twice (the oracle cast Breath of Life both times).

I've a veteran of Kingmaker (just starting the 5th book, as a player though; I read the first 4 after we finished those) and frankly AP encounters are often poorly-written. Of course, the problem might not be the authors, but their lack of omniscience. They don't know what sort of party will face the AP, but you the DM know them.

I often combine encounters in 4e (because 4e adventures are often similarly poorly-written, especially the older ones; I also do the same when converting from Pathfinder or older versions of D&D). So, fewer but harder encounters. Also, more monsters. (Just skip the empty dungeon areas.)

You shouldn't be afraid to change up encounters. That means tossing in extra weak monsters, "lightning rod" fake bosses, and the like. If an enemy is a mage, he can use illusions or polymorph to look like something else, eg a fighter, or a monster. That gives him at least one more round of life, since no one will see through the illusion until they touch him.

Enemies can also prepare for the PCs, even if they don't know the PCs are coming, since basic security is just a good idea. I'm thinking Hallucinatory Terrain hiding pit traps. Since the monsters working with the spellcaster are familiar with this tactic, they've made their Will saves versus disbelief and don't fall into the pits. Now when a PC falls into a pit, they're down for at least a round, which means a lot more than a PC randomly falling down a pit in an empty dungeon corridor somewhere. (Traps, especially pit traps, have traditionally been used for nothing more than grinding hit points. Pointless in a game with Wands of Cure Light Wounds.)

If the enemies are organized (are they? you can change that too) they'll learn something about PC tactics. Even if they have to scry on their buddies during the combat. Whatever works. Then each encounter should have a "surprise" built in.

One encounter might have someone with the Slow spell. Slow the PCs (being sure to catch the tiger and ranger in the AoE). Nerf that damage, a lot. Another encounter might have a Dispel Magic trap. Nerf that oracle. A lot. Another PC can be nerfed some other way. Obviously you don't want to go overboard by nerfing all the PCs or one individual PC each time, but there's no reason NPCs can't be smart about this.

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* I could give encounters that start at a long range. This would require throwing out most of the AP, because most of what's left is essentially dungeon-crawling. Also, when both the PCs and the monsters are relying on 60-foot darkvision, it's hard to start things at a distance.

Do the PCs have darkvision? Seems like they don't. Enemies more than 60 feet away can still see their torches and sunrods and shoot them with arrows. As long as the enemies spread out, the PCs will be forced to do the same in order to track down the archers who are killing them. (This is what makes encounters with drow terrifying. They can plan ambushes without speaking (sign language), spot you from at least 120 feet away even if you have darkvision, and then shoot someone with several sleep arrows. That's just how they announce themselves.)

Same thing with mind flayers and grimlocks. (I know, you can't have mind flayers in the SRD, but if you've got your old 3.5 Monster Manual, just use those. They're close enough.) The 2e mind flayer was nasty, since it could dominate and not just charm. It stood back 60 feet or more and dominated someone, and the PCs had a hard time getting to them because of the grimlocks in the way. Naturally this started from total darkness, as the grimlocks would target their crossbows with magic darkening bolts on whoever was carrying a light source.

I'm not familiar with this particular adventure, but I'm sure there's creatures with darkvision and ranged or magic attacks.

On a more general note, it seems like all of your PCs but the cleric have the exact same strategy -- kill things in melee. They need to diversify somehow. That's easier for the casters to handle.


How does the Magus struggle to get into melee?
Any enemy should have 8 squares around it. Ranger, animal, and Oracle will, in most cases, be unable to surround an enemy. In fact, with 4 people they are uniquely able to have everyone flank it (while the cleric casts spells).

The Magus should be able to do a lot of rolls too.
Once he is melee range, he can use spell combat to use all his attacks and also cast a spell. The spell needs a concentration check, then the spell might need more rolls if it goes off (like a touch spell giving an extra attack).
Note that the Magus can use the Arcane Mark cantrip to get an extra attack with spell combat, without burning a spell. So even if he is out of spells he still makes a bunch of rolls.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

if a magus takes the close range arcana they can use ray of frost for a free bonus attack every round too (in addition to using it sometimes for real spells like scorching ray or disintegrate)


A bit off topic:
If a magus does a close range disintegrate and misses, do they hold the charge like any other melee attack?
If so, that is a pretty cool way to never totally wiff a disintegrate.


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The result of this is that the ranger's player gets to make about 12 rolls per round (including rolls for the tiger), while the cleric's and magus' players are lucky to make one or two. Each roll seems to take about the same amount of time, so most of the game time is spent on the ranger's player. The others aren't getting to do anything and are getting bored. This wasn't as much of a problem at lower levels, when the ranger and tiger had fewer attacks and thus left more time for the other players.

I agree with Valandil, with 12 attacks per round he should definitely be pre-rolling those attacks. If you're waiting until your own turn to roll those 24+ dice, you're holding up the game.


If the ranger can die, the party is being challenged. Increasing the difficulty of the monsters is just going to lead to a higher chance of party death.

I'd be really carefully about designing encounters/tactics specifically designed to downplay your Ranger. A couple times sure, because that could happen and no character should be awesome in every encounter. But it would be incredibly easy to give the Ranger's player to impression that you are gunning for him. If you decide to do something like this, be very careful in how you exercise it.

Honestly, it doesn't sound like an issue with the encounters at all. It sounds like your Magus and Cleric aren't getting a time to shine. So what about providing them some opportunities to do so? Can any of these encounters be altered a little so that enemies attack from the rear? Imagine this- a fight starts. Everyone rolls initiative, and you make a couple of secret rolls... or just straight up determine order based on what you want to happen. The Ranger, Oracle, and Tiger all charge off to happily munch crunchies on the front line. Then, before your Magus and Cleric get a chance to go, there's a surprise attack from the rear. Or you ask one of them to make a perception check and they notice an enemy preparing to attack from hiding. Or any other thing you can think of that happens on an entirely different front where the Magus and Cleric can shine.

Also, that spider climb in tunnels idea is fantastic.

Let me echo the calls for getting that Ranger player to roll faster. Especially if he knows what he's going to do ahead of time. Also, sometimes just sharing your concern with the player can help immensely. If I'm a player, and you let me know that you think my turns are taking too long, I'm going to be actively looking for times when I can roll ahead of time or somehow reduce time. Arranging his weapons so that they have the same modifier will definitely help.

Regarding the cleric... I dunno. The best thing I can suggest is a change of view. Reading Treantmonk's 'God' Wizard guide was a great help to me, because he explains the mentality behind buffing and battlefield control just as much as he explains the benefits. I'd recommend you point the Cleric at that so that they can have a different attitude about it. Instead of "Man, I am contributing no damage to this battle" they can be thinking "that's alright children. Go play... Mommy/Daddy is here watching over you."

Dark Archive

Does the ranger own more than one set of dice? Characters are I titled to seeing the result of their first attack before committing to a full attack or choosing to use a move action instead. Even with the chance they might quickly look at another die and influence their choice to full attack, I still think the potential to save time is worth risking that behavior. Besides, how. Many good move actions exist anyway. I think using color coded dice for each attack/damage roll together is worth doing.

@ Salin
Ranged attack spells must hit or are lost, no holding the charge on a missed attack for ranged attack spells. Holding the change can only be done with melee touch spells.

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