I haven't seem any "Magic Mart" used in the campaigns I've been in, but it's been generally assumed that between various churches, mage guilds, pawn shops, traveling merchants, bazaars, etc that SOMEONE is potentially selling the item you're looking for (depending on community size and rolls). And if not, there's more than likely someone you can commission to have it made/upgraded. The actual process of tracking down those merchants is generally handwaved as long as we have the money available to make the purchase, because we're playing to roleplay adventure and heroics, not shopping trips.
wealth can also be amassed (and more frequently so) via exploitation, taken from those who worked for it, The Legend of the Great Two Headed Dragon known as "Rockefeller" comes to mind.
Sigh, as I said.
One final attempt.
The fundamental premise of my argument here is that human behavior in the real world can be presumed to be a reasonably accurate model for humanoid behavior (primarily human) in Pathfinder worlds. That means we would expect the humanoids in a PF world to be roughly as strong, fast, intelligent, ambitious, emotional or logical as humans in the real world.
Unless there is some agency redistributing wealth in the PF world outside of normal human behavior, that means that wealth distribution in the PF world should more or less match wealth distribution in the real world.
The point I originally was making about how driven humanoids would be to be successful is just one aspect of that larger picture. The larger picture is actually a more reasonable way to compare the PF world to the real world.
The reason I am using worldwide figures instead of any single country is that there are still huge parts of the world whose economy much more closely matches a medieval model than the USA. In the USA the middle class is the largest economic demographic. Worldwide the poor are the largest economic demographic.
So since the real world wealth distribution reflects all of the elements you mention above, and since all of those elements would come into play in a PF world, bringing inheritance and the other "variables" into play actually just makes the comparison more accurate, not less.
Because the issue at hand was originally about how many wealthy people there were who would be able to drive a magic item economy.
I'm pretty good with the idea that at least 2% of the population of a typical PF world would be wealthy. In that case in a town of 5,000 people, roughly 100 would be likely candidates to purchase magic stuff. Roughly 10 would be likely candidates to purchase substantial amounts or magic stuff, or highly expensive magic stuff.
I'm pretty confident I've made a pretty compelling case Silentman. As I always do in these online discussions, I leave it as an exercise to the reader which of us they find to have the more compelling argument.
Well just because wealthy people COULD buy magic items, doesnt mean they would, or would do so often enough to keep said magic vendor in business, at least on the purveyance of magical items alone.
Of course there could be the magic obsessed individual that kept buying potions he didn't need, convinced he had some ailment only a magic potion could cure.
However that person is more likely to keep the magic maker in personal employ than to just frequent the shop regularly.
I might buy +1 swords to keep my personal guard at a better powerful level than any local baddies.
But I think I would be more apt to buy, or requisition things like a broom of flying or the like.
Unless maybe the wealthy person was obsessed with weapons.
Also it would make sense this person would use the magic items in order to make more money.
And such a person wouldnt dabble with the locals, they would hire adventurers to go out and procure the more rare things for them...perhaps a collector if you will.
I watched a guy I know this year, buy/sell/trade no less than 5 snowmobiles. We had a horrible snow year in alaska this year (hardly any by our standards) He's a Cop, that somehow makes over 100 grand a year. Not a detective or a captain... he's a patrol officer (don't ask me , I have NO idea)
Any way, he's like the three bears of snowmobiles... this ones too hot, this ones too cold, this one is.... well he hasn't found the just right one yet, but HOLY COW.
I could imagine that being a rich landed noble with a fascination of magic items, collecting , buying, selling, getting adventures to locate...for no other reason than to amuse himself.
Well just because wealthy people COULD buy magic items, doesnt mean they would, or would do so often enough to keep said magic vendor in business, at least on the purveyance of magical items alone.
Magic is useful. It just is. That's why you can be expected to find spellcasting services in any small town unless something funny is going on. There are many different uses for magic items that the common populace can use, including potions, elixirs, tokens, solvents, glues, and greater and more robust things as the wealth level rises. The question actually becomes why WOULDN'T you buy magic items if you could afford them?
No really. If you could afford - without threatening your livelihood - a flying carpet. Why not? Never wondered what it would be like to fly? What about a small resetting trap (with a level) that spams burning hands inside a metal box with an open top and a balloon with a basket?
And then if you can craft and sell magic items...why wouldn't you? I mean it only requires a 3rd level adept to create magic items that the general populace would use. Most of them tend to be pretty pricey but one sale is all you need to be sitting pretty for a while. I mean, if I'm a 3rd level adept with Craft Wondrous Item, I can craft any magic item up to 1,000 gp in a day's time. If I sell said magic item, I'm going to have enough money to live an average lifestyle for several months. If I craft a +1 cloak of resistance (which improves your resiliency to getting sick, being poisoned, improves your reflexes, strengthens your resolve, etc) for 500 gp and sell it for 1,000 gp then I made 500 gp (4.16 years worth of average living).
But most fantasy settings are dangerous places. Places where having armor, weapons, resistances, and weird adventurous tools is a handy method of survival or avoiding the issue with rivals. If you can find a market for full plate armor, you can definitely find a market for amulets of natural armor.
sure i guess.... All my thoughts were compiled around a Turok/Dino world...not sure where you are going with your world.I have numerous Blacksmiths with the Master Craftsmen Feat. I am reworking them into my new setup for the Item Creation Feats.
Pendagast... Did you really have to say that. Also if you wanna help I am planning on a Bronze/Stone/Bone Age Campaign inspired by our off-topic discussion in one of the Middle Earth threads... If you wanna help out.
Actually I am thinking a Turok World would be better than my original thoughts.
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that the DM doesn't have to hand out what's in the WBL in gold. He can hand out enough gold to buy consumables or whatever and have the rest be in items. If the WBL says 5,000 gp it doesn't mean 5,000 actual gold pieces just stuff that is equivalent to it so you don't really need magic item shops in games.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that the DM doesn't have to hand out what's in the WBL in gold. He can hand out enough gold to buy consumables or whatever and have the rest be in items. If the WBL says 5,000 gp it doesn't mean 5,000 actual gold pieces just stuff that is equivalent to it so you don't really need magic item shops in games.
You don't really need anything in the game if the GM is going to custom make everything to ensure that everything works out for you. But that kills verisimilitude something fierce. It also leaves the party entirely up to the whims of whatever the GM decided to fart out in treasure horde #23. It also severely diminishes the awesomeness of opening up a vault full of valuables when those valuables can't be traded for anything worthwhile to an adventurer.
The set-up I use allows for that without it being obvious.
I generally agree with you on this issue, but the idea that wealth distribution must match the real world is a bit much. As you hint, wealth distribution in the real world has varied so much from place to place and throughout history that it doesn't even make sense. Real world wealth distribution doesn't even match real world wealth distribution at different times. Why should a fantasy world match the current real world?
I am not asserting that the PF wealth distribution "must match" the real world.
I am asserting that the real world is the only reasonable model we can use unless someone wants to actually write up a full-blown "fantasy magical item economy" from scratch.
Which is basically what Paizo and TSR did with their cost and income guidelines which, not remarkably, seem to fit pretty well with the real world when you work it out. I doubt that is a coincidence.
Sure you can come up with any sort of "because... dragons" rationale you want to for any sort of economy you want. But this whole discussion was about modeling the PF economy on the real world.
You could come up with an end result that was off by an order of magnitude and it would still support a magic item economy, it would just mostly shift to the largest towns and cities. But it would still exist.
That's certainly true shallowsoul, but relying exclusively on drops does run into a few problems. Namely either you're dropping essentially exactly what the party needs (and therefore straining credibility, especially if the melee guy is focused on a more unusual weapon) or your party aren't going to be getting the stuff they need.
true. either you end up catering to the guy with the odd weapon. or the guy begins relying on a more common weapon type because his odd specialty weapon seems to lack a reliable source of upgrades. either credibility is lost, or the player is denied his odd concept because his desired weapon doesn't appear on the regionally appropriate weapons chart.
such a thing penalizes anyone who trained in a weapon not native to the same region. which is to say, anyone who doesn't use a plain and boring longsword, shortsword, greatsword, or dagger.
it also penalizes the guy who uses uncommon armors, such as Kikko/Brigandine, Silken Ceremonial Robes, Armored Belts, or even anything made of Dragonhide, Mithril, or Darkleaf Cloth.
it also frequently penalizes monks who specialize in unarmed combat, and characters whose builds depend on highly specific weapon enchantments, such as finesse builds and agile weapons, fighters and gloves of dueling, or barbarians with furious weapons.
The bottom line for this whole discussion is that every reasonable, rational way I can look at the PF rules system ends up with a robust and widespread magic item economy.
Looking it it purely based on wealth distribution you end up with a population of rich people more than sufficient to keep luxury magic item shops in operation.
Looking at it purely based on income calculation based on skill and profession models, you end up with a huge merchant, trade and skill class with thousands of disposable gold to spend every year.
Looking at it purely based on the means of production, all it takes is a slightly above average intelligence and a couple years of magic school to learn how to do it, and as we've already seen, the wealth is there to fund it.
Looking at it purely based on utility, magic items would be far more useful in general than mundane items (and there would be a lot more utility magic items made than are listed in the books designed to outfit adventurers).
In fact the only way I can come up with to look at the magic item economy that would end up with magic items being rare, legendary and virtually impossible to come by (except by GM fiat) is flavor. People just don't want magic items to be that widespread and integrated with the world.
OK, fine, but in order to make that flavor come true, you have to ignore or rewrite about half of the rules of the game, or hand-wave the economy so that it beggars verisimilitude, or design and run a world where people willfully ignore their own best interest so that the PCs gain special benefits.
So if that's what you want, that's fine. But at least be aware of the consequences.
Personally, I always find it strange that people would prefer for the fighter to ditch his sword he has had since nearly the beginning of his career, simply because a better weapon dropped. I would rather have a health market, that the fighter can sell items to get gp to use to further enhance his trusty weapon that has served him well. If you rely exclusively on drops, you will eventually run into the situation where that weapon gets abandoned.
Personally, I always find it strange that people would prefer for the fighter to ditch his sword he has had since nearly the beginning of his career, simply because a better weapon dropped. I would rather have a health market, that the fighter can sell items to get gp to use to further enhance his trust weapon that has served him well. If you rely exclusively on drops, you will eventually run into the situation where that weapon gets abandoned.
While there may be exceptions, most professional soldiers view their equipment as tools, and they want the best tools. Not many gladiators hang onto a weapon for sentimental reasons when they get a chance to get a better one.
Would you hang onto a lesser weapon just because it had a history with you and ignore the obviously superior weapon before you face that black dragon?
I wouldn't.
The bottom line for this whole discussion is that every reasonable, rational way I can look at the PF rules system ends up with a robust and widespread magic item economy.
Looking it it purely based on wealth distribution you end up with a population of rich people more than sufficient to keep luxury magic item shops in operation.
Looking at it purely based on income calculation based on skill and profession models, you end up with a huge merchant, trade and skill class with thousands of disposable gold to spend every year.
Looking at it purely based on the means of production, all it takes is a slightly above average intelligence and a couple years of magic school to learn how to do it, and as we've already seen, the wealth is there to fund it.
Looking at it purely based on utility, magic items would be far more useful in general than mundane items (and there would be a lot more utility magic items made than are listed in the books designed to outfit adventurers).
In fact the only way I can come up with to look at the magic item economy that would end up with magic items being rare, legendary and virtually impossible to come by (except by GM fiat) is flavor. People just don't want magic items to be that widespread and integrated with the world.
OK, fine, but in order to make that flavor come true, you have to ignore or rewrite about half of the rules of the game, or hand-wave the economy so that it beggars verisimilitude, or design and run a world where people willfully ignore their own best interest so that the PCs gain special benefits.
So if that's what you want, that's fine. But at least be aware of the consequences.
and if you want such a world to work, you have to ignore the entirety of the bestiaries with the exception of mundane animals. and highly limit the races of the advanced race guide and change the fluff of the ones you do allow.
Personally, I always find it strange that people would prefer for the fighter to ditch his sword he has had since nearly the beginning of his career, simply because a better weapon dropped. I would rather have a health market, that the fighter can sell items to get gp to use to further enhance his trust weapon that has served him well. If you rely exclusively on drops, you will eventually run into the situation where that weapon gets abandoned.While there may be exceptions, most professional soldiers view their equipment as tools, and they want the best tools. Not many gladiators hang onto a weapon for sentimental reasons when they get a chance to get a better one.
Would you hang onto a lesser weapon just because it had a history with you and ignore the obviously superior weapon before you face that black dragon?
I wouldn't.
A weapon is only as good as the hand that wields it. I would rather use a weapon that might be less powerful, but that I am much more familiar and comfortable with.
The issue of item/weapon upgrade/availability/modularity has been brought up several times in this thread.
I have recently created an alternate magic item creation system that directly addresses those concerns.
It is Here.
I think that it is flexibility enough to allow for those who wish for less magic to use it and also allows for an almost seamless match to the current system.
Please feel free to critique. All input is welcome and appreciated.
A weapon is only as good as the hand that wields it. I would rather use a weapon that might be less powerful, but that I am much more familiar and comfortable with.
This is demonstrably untrue in the world of magical weapons. And I will say that you can assert this all you want. When your life actually depends on it, I am pretty sure you would choose otherwise.
If you had numerous feats for a Scimitar you would probably stick with your +2 Scimitar over the +3 Longsword your party just found.
If you had numerous feats for a Scimitar you would probably stick with your +2 Scimitar over the +3 Longsword your party just found.
or if you fell for the trap called dervish dance. which while being a single feat, is a fairly significant investment in it's own right.
the same could be said about the ninja keeping that +1 agile wakazashi instead of taking that +3 dagger.
or that fighter who has weapon specialization and improved critical in the falchion keeping that +2 falchion instead of picking up the +3 keen greatsword. the greatsword makes a viable backup weapon, but the falchion is still the default choice here.
If you had numerous feats for a Scimitar you would probably stick with your +2 Scimitar over the +3 Longsword your party just found.
Nobody is suggesting otherwise. In that case the +2 scimitar would still be the "better weapon" for you.
The question is if you'd keep the +2 scimitar your weapons master gave you because you liked it more than the +3 scimitar you just found in the red dragon hoard.
If I can jump in on AD's and Silent's conversation, I would say you are basically arguing the difference between commoners and experts. At least that's what it sounds like to me.
Personally, I always find it strange that people would prefer for the fighter to ditch his sword he has had since nearly the beginning of his career, simply because a better weapon dropped. I would rather have a health market, that the fighter can sell items to get gp to use to further enhance his trust weapon that has served him well. If you rely exclusively on drops, you will eventually run into the situation where that weapon gets abandoned.While there may be exceptions, most professional soldiers view their equipment as tools, and they want the best tools. Not many gladiators hang onto a weapon for sentimental reasons when they get a chance to get a better one.
Would you hang onto a lesser weapon just because it had a history with you and ignore the obviously superior weapon before you face that black dragon?
I wouldn't.
Yea, this. Having been a soldier, a contractor and an avid snowmachiner, we use a lot of 'stuff'
As a soldier, we didnt want to hang on to our M-16's we wanted the new m-4s with the picatinny rails and the collapsible stocks (although I liked the feel of the m-16 better once I got the M4)
With equipment, like the Cat 257B man , love it, zoom zoom, until you get the 267C then you cant stand the old 'junk'.
with snow machines, you think you got the killer sled, until something else new comes out or you try someone else's, then you go back to yours and your are like...huh... no poop. need the new one.
I upgrade my sled this year...Tons more power a little more functionality. I still have some nostaligia for my older one because...well, I did most of my best stuff on that sled over the past few years... the chassis is different so there is some learning curve on the newer sled... but all in all I still have the older one because it's hard to let go of it
If you had numerous feats for a Scimitar you would probably stick with your +2 Scimitar over the +3 Longsword your party just found.
OR You don't throw feats and specializing early on because you don't know how your career will unfold?
Would it be feasible that through out your entire adventuring career you only find a +2 scimitar? however you find an intelligent vorpal bastard sword that calls you sweet heart and summons candies for your pillow every night before bed....NAH sell that junk so I can afford a +4 scimitar!
That's certainly true shallowsoul, but relying exclusively on drops does run into a few problems. Namely either you're dropping essentially exactly what the party needs (and therefore straining credibility, especially if the melee guy is focused on a more unusual weapon) or your party aren't going to be getting the stuff they need.
Quite so. Otherwise you'll run into issues like the third chapter of "Rise of the Runelords" where half your party's Wealth By Level consists of enchanted Ogre Hooks.
The thing is you might not know when a given campaign might end.
& sounds like I have the perfect build if I ever get into Rise Of The Runelords... I have a Fighter who specializes in Ogre Hooks.
i always liked the idea of having a campaign where the characters upgrade their gear throughout the course of the story in a kind of skyward sword way
personally id like to create a campaign world where they have to search far and wide for powerful casters that can actually craft the crazy powerful items they want
i.e. if your PC wants a sword whose total enhancement is above +5, they have to find a lvl 15 or above NPC caster to even create it
just go with the RAW crafting rules and make sure they don't encounter any casters whos CR is above what they should be running into anyway and it should make it a lot easier to not worry about the whole 'ordering from the catalog' feel
im fairly certain that particular requirement isnt the kind you can overcome with a +5 to the crafting DC
i do believe thats in what we're hoping will be the FAQ on the much discussed magic item crafting thread
i would infer that, because its not a listed prerequisite, but rather an elaboration on the use of the feat itself, that one would NOT be able to craft things at a higher DC
reasoning is simple, you could craft a much more powerful weapon than you should be able to at lower levels just for +5 DC because theres nothing saying that each enhancement bonus on top of what you are capable of making is a separate prereq
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Silentman, one of the reasons we have a hard time reaching consensus on this issue is because of statements you make like this one:
If you inject real-world concepts into a fantasy realm, then allowing the existence of elves who live for hundreds of years and interact with other races leads nowhere but the subjugation of the non-elvish humanoid races and the stunted development of any technology/science/magic they could learn which could conceivably give them a chance of throwing off elven rule.
You have made several such astronomically huge and sweeping assertions about what "must" happen based on your own assumptions about things, and then you take that and consider it to be a baseline foundational point for your argument and you don't seem to understand when someone says "but that's not necessarily true."
There are any number of ways to conceive of a world with elves who live for hundreds of years but who do not automatically subjugate non-elvish races. Starting with the most obvious one which is they are alien and may not have anything like the motivations that humans would have.
You do this sort of thing in several places in the magic item economy argument and when i try to point them out, you just ignore the rebuttal and continue on as if your sweeping generalization is universally acknowledged and accepted.
However, there is some truth to the "you have to let a lot of real world stuff fall by the wayside to let fun happen" statement. But I don't think you and I see this the same way even though we both probably agree with the same conclusion. In my mind this is mostly true just because of the near infinite number of distractions a GM would have to deal with to get anything done. Just to be able to tell a story requires that you ignore all sorts of likely real world impact on the game.
I have taken some writing classes and this is a fundamental aspect of story telling. You have to distill the story down to something the reader/watcher can digest, so stories are pretty much required to be highly abridged and focused versions of "real life". This is why dialog itself in a well written story doesn't match real world dialog. Because if it did, the reader would be left saying "what the hell?"
Your final assertion that the existence of magic shops is based on modern retail assumptions is just another example of one of your base assumptions that is simply not true, but I doubt there is any way to convince you of that, in spite of the existence of "magic shops" in cultures dating back as far as ancient Rome and Egypt. Somehow they managed to have a magic item economy without even having magic.
Interesting. No?
I do this for one primary reason, AD: Because I'm right. I'm never afraid to say so, nor am I ashamed of being so.
LOL, I'm sure a lot of readers of the boards are savoring the irony of someone telling ME this. :)
By the way, I'm quite convinced that I've proven you wrong in a couple of areas. :)
But to get to your points:
1. I think a "magic shop" approach cheapens the wonder of magic
This, imho, depends entirely on how the magic economy is addressed in the game. I believe you can have magic shops and maintain the "wonder of magic" element in a variety of ways.
Furthermore, the default approach to not having magic shops is for the party to just find stuff they need. To me the constant discovery of special and unique items that just happen to provide what the party needs from out of the blue is far more troublesome than the idea that they might have to replenish magic supplies from time to time, just as they have to replenish mundane supplies. At least then it doesn't feel like there is some divine presence watching their every move and giving them stuff.
And if the approach is just to make magic items rare, then it creates all sorts of verisimilitude problems since the actual rules of the game clearly make magic items pretty easy to make and pretty well within the reach of a reasonably large fraction of society.
2. I accept that the default PF setting has such things in place. I personally believe it's a concession to get un-fun parts of playing out of the way to make more time for fun parts, and we may be trying to work too hard to find an internally consistent world reason for their existence.
I can more or less agree with this. I used to have a bit of a problem with a stack of +1 swords in the local armory, but I've more or less resolved that not by removing +1 swords but by redefining what is meant in my own world as "wondrous magic items". Yeah, in my world +1 swords are not going to engender much sense of wonder for the players, but I tend to provide the players with unique custom magic items that are not static. I like having magic items that scale with the PCs power. As PCs gain power they can unlock more of the magic item's powers. But the +2 armor is still there if they want to buy it. I've just shifted that sense of awe and wonder from rather lame static items to special custom items.
3. I don't think a traditional income model for de-facto serfdom and/or feudalism in a rural setting supports the necessary resources for non-adventurers to come close to regularly purchasing such items at listed prices.
I think you are so wrong about this that it's actually quite hilarious and ignores pretty much everything from historical economies to common sense. But I don't want to rehash that argument since it's one of the ones that I think I defeated you pretty convincingly already.
4. I think it's more reasonable to find such income in larger urban settings. I still think the overall instance of occurrence should be on the statistically rare side.
Yeah, as I pointed out, larger urban areas will generally have more stuff. But that's all part of the previous discussion too.
5. Rule Zero trumps all.
This is technically true but GMs who apply this rule too much will find out that Rule Zero can trump having players willing to game with them.
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you are assuming a "magic shop" just gives the players access to whatever they want
if a DM gives players whatever they want then sure, it cheapens the wonder of magic
but RAW thats not how it works, RAW theres a whole table based on city scope and random items that are available
if at any point you deviate from that, then you have no right to complain about the games designed mechanics, because you are in homebrew/house rule land
and items are not regularly purchased, they are in fact (RAW) quite rare
you should check your sources before you start pointing fingers
ill state my point again, power gamers assume too many things and label things OP based soley on skewed perspective
you are assuming a "magic shop" just gives the players access to whatever they want
if a DM gives players whatever they want then sure, it cheapens the wonder of magic
but RAW thats not how it works, RAW theres a whole table based on city scope and random items that are availableif at any point you deviate from that, then you have no right to complain about the games designed mechanics, because you are in homebrew/house rule land
and items are not regularly purchased, they are in fact (RAW) quite rare
you should check your sources before you start pointing fingersill state my point again, power gamers assume too many things and label things OP based soley on skewed perspective
The basis for threads like this is the combo of WBL and the 75% rule. By RAW the randomness is in addition to the fact that there is a 75% chance that ANyTHING in the books is available under a certain GPV depending on the size of the community you are in.
I say poppycock, because that would QUICKLY over run the entire wealth of the village/town/city you are in as a whole, meaning the only wealth the community actually had was in the catalog the players can select from.
On average that would mean 3/4 of the printed magic items are available at any one time at or under X price point. But there are so many in print, added to the random items there are, that even small towns would have a virtual dragon's trove if this were so.
But that is the basis for magic is everywhere and I should be able to get whatever I want.
Add in the fact that. by a certain level, a wizard can just teleport to the largest city he can think of and buy/sell whatever he wants and teleport back, making by RAW anything and everything available.
The Balance of WBL and these above facts, essentially equal out to whatever the players want, that they are supposed to be able to have by the rules of balance for their level, they are able to get.
which causes the GM handwave.
I am Reasonably certain RAI wasnt meant to go in this direction and it's pretty poor writing/editing/play testing with the intentions in mind. But it is RAW, unfortunately, and I can sympathize with DMs that hand wave because it just becomes and "US vs. HIM" thing with the players trying to get what they want...and heaven forbid you say they can't get it.... well heck, then you just arent playing pathfinder!
The basis for threads like this is the combo of WBL and the 75% rule. By RAW the randomness is in addition to the fact that there is a 75% chance that ANyTHING in the books is available under a certain GPV depending on the size of the community you are in.
I say poppycock, because that would QUICKLY over run the entire wealth of the village/town/city you are in as a whole, meaning the only wealth the community actually had was in the catalog the players can select from.
On average that would mean 3/4 of the printed magic items are available at any one time at or under X price point. But there are so many in print, added to the random items there are, that even small towns would have a virtual dragon's trove if this were so.I do think you have to be a little bit vague in how you interpret that "75%". If it means 3/4 of all magic items under the price point are in town, then it's obviously far too much wealth. Especially since there would be multiple of many of them.
If you take it literally as "you can find a given item under the base price 75% of time" and don't extend that to what happens if you look for every possible item, then it isn't bad. Just slap down any player who starts at one end of the list and works his way through. There's a relatively small, but undefined set of magic items available, that just happens to have a good chance of including what you're looking for.
Jeff, this is the argument of every guy with every build that is dependent on Magic item A; that it is 75% likely to just be there. You can't expect to go into town and have a 75% chance of exactly what you are looking for be available without ALL the other things someone MIGHT be looking for also be 75% likely to be there.
Otherwise it's not different than what you are looking for just "happen" to be in a treasure pile.