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This idea come up in another thread:
- dispel the big magic sword of the fighter;
- shatter it while it is a non magical object.
I think there is some problem with that idea:
Shatter
School evocation [sonic]; Level bard 2, cleric 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a chip of mica)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area or Target 5-ft.-radius spread; or one solid object or one crystalline creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates (object); Will negates (object) or Fortitude half; see text; Spell Resistance yesShatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature.
Used as an area attack, shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such unattended objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell. Objects weighing more than 1 pound per your level are not affected, but all other objects of the appropriate composition are shattered.
Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid nonmagical object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level. Targeted against a crystalline creature (of any weight), shatter deals 1d6 points of sonic damage per caster level (maximum 10d6), with a Fortitude save for half damage.
(object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects. A magic item's saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + 1/2 the item's caster level.
1) The weapon is a attended object so it get a Will ST to avoid the damage;
2) Then the spell don't say how many HP of damage you do to the weapon. Sunder isn't a condition as broken or destroyed, it is a kind of attack that dealt damage. Sunder say "If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally."
So, what is the damage dealt by shatter? Unless it is a crystalline item you don't know as the spells don't quantify the damage. [a crystalline item, by the text, is destroyed].
A adamantine weapon is as resistant or as weak to this spell as a normal steel one? Or a leather and cloth sling?
I think that all the rules about breaking items apply, with item hardness, ineffective attacks, halving of energy damage dealt when appropriate and so on.
Probably the spell would dealt 1d6 hp/level of damage against non crystalline items but the spell don't say anything about what damage it do.
Comments or informations about this?
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If the wielder fails his Will save, his sword is destroyed. Seems pretty straight-forward to me.
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1) Yeah.
2) Bottom of the Shatter spell? "Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid nonmagical object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level." It is "smashed into dozens of pieces". Destroyed. No HP damage, no type of damage, no broken condition, no sundering... just destroys it. Yes, in the sentence it says it destroys items, it specifies certain compositions, but the alternative is to target a single solid object.
Completely agree with Ravingdork.
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Where it say it? It is sundered. But that require knowing how much HP of damage the spell do.
I find a bit absurd that a 2nd level spell will destroy with the same ease a glass bottle, a steel sword, a mithral mace or a adamantine full plate.
In Pathfinders items have a specific number of HP and an hardness. This spell will make those stats meaningless?
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1) Yeah.
2) Bottom of the Shatter spell? "Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid nonmagical object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level." It is "smashed into dozens of pieces". Destroyed. No HP damage, no type of damage, no broken condition, no sundering... just destroys it. Yes, in the sentence it says it destroys items, it specifies certain compositions, but the alternative is to target a single solid object.Completely agree with Ravingdork.
Actually it say:
"Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid nonmagical object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level."
With nothing about the object being destroyed.
First row:
"Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature."
so it sunder a single solid, non magical object.
And the piece about "smashed into dozens of pieces", cited in its completeness is:
"Used as an area attack, shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such unattended objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell. Objects weighing more than 1 pound per your level are not affected, but all other objects of the appropriate composition are shattered.W
I.e.: area attack; destroy nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain; said nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain are "are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell".
Two different effects of the spell. Your interpretation can be the RAI, but it is not what the spell say.
Although the spell is ambiguous because it uses the term sunder, I agree with Ravingdork.
The key is the fact that shatter says "shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain." and then in the targeted section refers to this but with a new stipulation of "you can target shatter against a single solid nonmagical object, regardless of composition".
So against objects you have two choices:
Area: Destroys all crystalline non-magical objects in 5-ft radius burst.
Targeted: Destroys 1 non-magical object, no matter the composition.
However, Shatter says "All such unattended objects..."
Can shatter be used against attended objects? I am leaning towards no.
Woah, woah, woah. Hold on a sec. I think, Diego has a point. It says "Alternatively", as in "Another way to use this is spell" is to target a single solid object, one which is a crystalline creature (not limited by the 10 lbs/caster level). Following that line of logic, maybe it should deal 1d6 sonic per caster level.
Besides, if RAI is really towards just breaking items, regardless of stats and materials and cost and masterwork, it really is just nonsensically broken and should be banned.
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No, it literally turns it into a non-magical object.
You choose to use dispel magic in one of two ways: a targeted dispel or a counterspell.
Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level). If successful, that spell ends. If not, compare the same result to the spell with the next highest caster level. Repeat this process until you have dispelled one spell affecting the target, or you have failed to dispel every spell.
For example, a 7th-level caster casts dispel magic, targeting a creature affected by stoneskin (caster level 12th) and fly (caster level 6th). The caster level check results in a 19. This check is not high enough to end the stoneskin (which would have required a 23 or higher), but it is high enough to end the fly (which only required a 17). Had the dispel check resulted in a 23 or higher, the stoneskin would have been dispelled, leaving the fly intact. Had the dispel check been a 16 or less, no spells would have been affected.
You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire). You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends. No other spells or effects on the target are dispelled if your check is not high enough to end the targeted effect.
If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by summon monster), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.
If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item's caster level (DC = 11 + the item's caster level). If you succeed, all the item's magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers its magical properties. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional opening (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item's physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.
You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.
Counterspell: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster's spell.
Further, Shatter only does hit point damage to crystalline creatures. A creature is not an object by definition, even if an animated object.
Further, Shatter only does hit point damage to crystalline creatures. A creature is not an object by definition, even if an animated object.
I know... I'd just like to pretend that maybe shatter wasn't so stupidly broken as I know it to be. It's completely ridiculous on all accounts when your boots are shattered. Especially magical ones that were recently dispelled. The "unattended" is non-subject when dealing with targeting a single object, that's what the object will saves are for. Unattended nonmagical items receive no saves.
And while this spell can mess up a caster, it's more likely to ruin a warrior's day who rely more on their items and tend to have poorer will saves.
It is NOT stupidly broken. First you need to dispel the item in question, which is by no means guaranteed (caster level checks can be pretty hard). Then you need to get past the target's Will save with what is in all likelihood a low DC (since it's only 2nd-level).
And, assuming you've managed all that, what do you have to show for it at the end of those two rounds? You broke one of the target's toys. You've probably done little more than piss him off and rob yourself of a little extra treasure. In the meantime your party is wondering why you aren't doing something more useful, like killing or incapacitating the bad guys.
Sure you could Heighten shatter and Quicken dispel magic, but then you're talking about EVEN MORE resources.
And if the warrior just lets a dispel magic and shatter go off without interference then they deserve it.
Mind you, there are much better ways to ruin anyone's day as far as failed saves go.
Most definitely. Using blindness/deafness to blind an enemy is FAR more crippling and long lasting, only requires one save (versus a caster level check and a save), it only requires one round, eats up less resources, and it doesn't ruin any of your potential treasure.
6th level Evoker uses Dispel magic against a +2 weapon (therefore CL 6), must roll an 10 or higher. On the next round they cast shatter, 6th level fighter likely to have somewhere around a +4 to his will save has to roll an 10 or higher to make that DC 14 check (+2 from Spell Focus(Evocation)).
Bam, goodbye 4000+gp sword. Which according to WbL tables is a quarter of that character's wealth.
Sure, it takes some setup and a some luck to pull off, but the results are pretty harsh with no middle ground.
No, this tactic isn't really worth it for a player. Who's wants to just go around destroying all the nice things? It's more efficient to just kill the guy holding the stuff.
However as a tactic against players it's an extremely dire move. Player's care about the stuff their character's hold. More than their character's health.
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Don't be the player that the GM wants to use this on. And if you are, learn to counter it (DeltaOneG has a good solution). This tactic isn't really worth it for NPC's either, unless its the machinations of a mastermind working to whittle down the PCs. If it is, that's all the more reason to want to bring the son-of-a-b... down. But now we're digressing. Ultimately, it is RAW and RAI. This "tactic against players" could be accomplished much more effectively by a Breaker (barbarian).
That +2 full steel earthbreaker has 14 hardness and 30 HP. Breaker uses a +1 greatsword.
6th level Breaker gets the jump on the PCs and uses an enlarge person and bull's strength. He uses Rage and charges PC with +2 earthbreaker. He sunders, using rage powers Smasher, Powerful Blow and Strength Surge. He has weapon focus, improved sunder, improved initiative, and power attack.
CMB +26. (+6 BAB, +10 STR, +2 Improved Sunder, +6 Strength Surge, +2 charge, +1 weapon focus, +1 enhancement, -2 power attack)
3d6+24 damage. (+15 STR, +1 enhancement, +6 power attack, +2 powerful blow)
Ignores hardness.
This level 6 guy will destroy most +2 weapons in a single attack a little more than 90% of the time.
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If it can break any non magical item within its weight limit regardless of its composition it is a great debuffer.
That fire giant with a normal greatsword? Probably it is within the weight limits of a 5th level character, at worst a 7th level character.
Shatter it and his attac go from: Melee greatsword +21/+16/+11 (3d6+15) to 2 slams +20 (1d8+10).
The captain of the guard in masterwork full plate? 50 lbs, so it is within the limit of a 5th level character. Shatter and almost certainly he will lose 9 points of AC.
His weapon? Shatter, at most he will have a dagger as a back up.
This thread has done something I did not know was possible, it has made me hate and fear groups of pugwampis even more.