Just wondering if anyone else is finding the AP really easy? Running it with 4 Pcs 20 point buy. Party is:
Life Oracle
Druid w/ Roc
Alchemist
Rogue
They are walking through most encounters.
***SPOILERS***
Book 1 was fun so it wasn't really notice as much.
The sorcerer fight in Book 2 kind of gave them a struggle, as well as the Vine creature shortly after. But now that they have gone into the underwater dungeon, it's basically one attack kills. Everyone has air bubble and the druid/alchemist have touch of the sea giving them swim speeds so most combats under water aren't any harder.
Anyone else finding this? I have ran Serpent skull, Jade and Carrion Crown, and they seem to have quite a few tough fights, I just find these two books to be WAY too easy.
You are aware that say... the alchemist can't throw anything underwater or swallow potions in the initial levels. Yes, that also applies to people with "swim" speeds.
And not quite sure about the social agenda rolls onboard the Wormwood with that group's setup. Or dealing with many things on Bonewrack Isle
I'd suppose, you are perhaps going very easy on your group ?
??????????
I think not, as Vikingson says this is NOT an easy adventure by any means, if anything its too hard.
Trawl back through the threads and you will see, Bonewrack island is a killer if you are not careful as are the grindy caverns in book 1. Nearly everyone has had at least one death. Swarms as well have been a killer.
I agree with Vikingson you must be one VERY generous GM.
However one point may be the you have 4 pc's with 20 point buy, the AP encounters are designed with 4 pc's with 15 point buy so that could be a very small part of the problem.
As for the one attack kills underwater, are you using the underwater rules?
if you think its proving to be too easy then I suggest you either tailor the encounters or not be so easy on the players.
I'm running the AP with 6 players and each with higher-than-average point buy. So far I've hardly had to increase the difficulty at all and the players have almost mutinied because they find it too hard!
Human Ranger/Urban Barbarian/Fighter (unarmed master)
Kitsune Cloistered Cleric (glory)/Bard(sea singer)
Human Flowing Monk
Human Rogue (knife master)
Half-Orc Wizard (illusionist)/Rogue
Human Gunslinger (buccaneer)
The players do like to RP more than power play so I'll admit that would be making things harder but bonewrack isle was almost a TPK more than once (not to mention Riptide Cove). I don't know if the AP encounters are less difficult than normal when underwater. But if so and the PCs are well-accustomed to underwater fighting, they are gonna have an easier time of it.
Perhaps level up a few of the bosses or give them some more minions? dispel magic them a few times while underwater?
I took a quick look at Parable's posts - the name rang a bell - and.. well
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o5a4?The-Whale#1
He didn't seem too happy with the underwater rules back then.
So it's either generosity or perhaps massive "planning ahead" by the players - meaning that at least one of them knows the AP and steers things towards a positive outcome.
Speaking for my own group : We played "through" the entire AP, with modded 22 point characters (don't ask), five experienced players... The group lost five characters in total (and everybody died in the end for a Gambit-result) ..... four of them in AP#1 and AP#2.
Using underwater rules, alchemist has now taken underwater demolotion, which does cause 5ft range increment. And yes bonewreck island was a bit of a panic with the swarms and I believe Con dmg? can't remember and book is not here. Just one example is Level 5 rogue/ 1 shadow dancer who while underwater since the light source is concidered to be dark can still Stealth on things underwater and hitting with a +1 boarding pike while sneak attacking and +5 str. So I believe it is 1d8+8 (two handed) +3 or 4 sneak dice. easily one shotting most of the creatures in 2nd book dungeon.
No there are fights that they struggled with, I just haven't found it had the toughness of Carrion Crown or Jade Regent.
Doesn't help also that I Ok'd the druid using a Roc which at this level is walking around with like 27 AC
You may want to do a character audit. Collect all the character sheets, check the math, add up the equipment totals, and make sure everyone really is at the power level you expect. Also, do the same for tactics and rulings, to see if you might be letting characters get away with things that aren't legal.
By no means have any of my adventurers felt this AP is easy at all. I have allowed all of my players to have MAX hit points every level and we just had our 5th character death. They have not even Mutinied yet. Still in the first book.
I have thrown in tons of healing potions and a few wands with a little healing left on them.
It has been one of the deadliest we have run yet(next to Council of Thieves).
Now that Sandara is around again I will have her accompany them everywhere as the party healer. Hopefully that will help.
hm, weird, I'll have to go back through and give the AP a good read. Using hero lab so I don't think the math is off, my GM from Carrion Crown who is a veteran is a PC in this game so the game really has two GM's when it comes to core rules. Well thanks for everyones input.
4 fairly optimized PC's with 20 point buy and this has been the most challenging and most rewarding AP we've ever played. I'm sure we would have had a TPK a time or two but our GM is pretty good about tailoring our encounters so we haven't had any PC deaths - we've had more than a few close calls though we've lost a handful of NPC's along the way.
Probably one of the biggest things that has kept us alive and functional was our use of NPC's. Sandara might as well have been a member of the party for all but 1 book, Rosie was with the team about 50% of the time, minding the ship the other 50% for the first three books before she went off on her own... and of course, we have an entire crew of PMD's. We didn;t treat them badly, far from it, but its nice to be able to call on a handful of potential redshirts whenever you need to.
Sight and Stealth : Darkvision directly breaks shadowy light, so the Shadowdancer has nothing to hide behind. he/she/it is standing naked
nevermind : Sahuagins having blindsense 30' + Darkvision *shrug*
taking a Specialised Feat ( Underwater Demolitions) from an uncommon and "unplaced" race... in mid-game. I'd also call that very generous.
And looking at much of the stuff in the final dungeon... I don't think most of it can be one-shotted.
as for the Roc.... you took the AC off a gargantuan creature without calculating it down to small size. I have some doubts there. Someone more in love with druids please illuminate this for us... I arrive at AC 19.
If the game is fun for your group this way, be welcome.
Rogue one shotted the "Queen" Sahaugin. The Advanced Giant.
Maybe I was generous allowing the feat, just figured a pirate alchemist at sea for months would have started to study such a thing.
As for the Roc, made a level 6 basic druid in hero lab, added Roc as animal companion, starts with a base AC of 24, medium sized.
I dont think the matron is really that difficult to do with one hit if you hit it, my parties druid could do that with a crit from the sycthe no need for sneak its not really a BBEG.
What about the mummy and kellroot, they are the ones that I would say are the challenge (Im not using this part so it dosn't worry me).
What about part 1, I think that’s the thrux of it as this part is really deadly. Part 2 you have more access to spells so the underwater combat gets easier anyway
What happened on the Wormwood? If you were playing this correctly it should have been merciless Plugg and Scourge should have made thier life pure hell. The PC’s should have been beaten constantly, there must have been some failed job rolls somewhere, what about the Reefclaws and the Rum ration?
How did you're party manage to do the island and the Grindy caves so easily?
I think to help understand whats going wrong it would help to know.
Hero lab has a fair number of bugs in it--sometimes it catches stuff you miss, but you gotta double check the math. In another game, hero lab told me my 13th level paladin companion had an AC of 54 (absolutely wrong).
OP, you realize it's a full action to swim underwater. I'm not even getting to the weapon penalties. What the heck does the Roc do in the water? What about ready actions to interrupt the druid when it inevitably summons? And who got stuck with the 2 on 1 fight in the bilge?
( I don't think the underwater demolitions is problematic.)
We've had no deaths yet, but we've had some extremely lucky breaks and have had to dip into the infamy powers to save our skins several times.
I can see how that team is fairly solid, mind you. Several sources of disposable hit points, three classes that have healing--one exceptionally strong, too. The summons help the rogue get sneak attacks, and alchemists can toss a lot of pain in a short period of time. If the group advances slowly and isn't under time pressure (or ignores it), they could be doing quite well.
Be sure to abuse the cyclopses, then. :O
Part 1 was fun, I had the party in a rage at the table with scourge and plug, The whale and the caves in part 1 weren't that difficult for them. The island with the fly swarms almost did take them down a few times.
Part 2 they are about to go to the mummy and kellroot, im hoping that will work out more in my favor.
I really just don't see how the caves were not that difficult at the level the PC's were at. The devilfish is a nightmare (red ink cloud, no-one not even the rogue would be able to see it to hit)as is the whale, one chomp and that's it. The only conclusion I can come to with the very vague it was fun is that you must have missed certain bits out maybe not bothered with the hooks in the caves (they nearly killed the druid in my party who got snagged and then lept on by 4 grindys), not used the underwater rules properly and not used monster tactics very well such as grindy ambushes and gang-ups.
Sorry but with the limited info you are giving it does appear that way in my opinion. You seem to have very optimised pc's (although I fail to see what on earth a Roc is doing with the Druid, where was it on the Wormwood and as Big M says what use is it underwater?) and far too leniant on the players. The trouble is if you miss things out such as the rum ration and don't use the correct rules for underwater combat etc then you do end up making it easier.
If you play the adventure as it is written properly without skimping on anything then the adventure is VERY hard.
BUT at the end of the day if that's the way you guys like it then carry on, if not and you are all getting fed up as it seems to easy then just change it and rack up the encounters to make it harder. You have Hero lab so its not that hard to do.
Have fun anyway.
Rum rations did what they were supposed to, i did not have very many ambushes, really ran the dungeon as stage by stage encounters, that is my fault on being a newer GM.
As far as the Roc, I agree. I wrote it into the story that it was being held below deck and was going to be used during a feast, it was the druids animal companion prior, so it became one of there first missions to free it. It then proceeded to remain flying around and above the ship out of reach of attacks.
One thing that was brough up was they had put an air bubble on the Roc, and it has a swim speed. I did let it go, probably shouldn't have, but knowing there are birds that can swim underwater for food and such I was easy on the ruling.
The caves in book one were more difficult to the party than I may be letting on, the devilfish was a nightmare for them and having Rosie and Sandara as the NPCs that were being held by the whale made it much more memorable. I do find the cave in book 2 though is much weaker. So far.
so this is kinda weird. Paizo's Gargantuan Roc is stat lined
Str 28, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 11 =AC 22
The one the druid is using in hero lab is stat lined
Str 14, Dex 21, Con 9, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 11 = AC 24
Edit: Nevermind it's legit.
7th-Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +3 natural armor; Attack 2 talons (1d6 plus grab), bite (1d8); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4.
Hero Lab is wrong (as so often *sigh*)
Looked it up
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions
it starts out at AC. Since it is a 4th level option (always starts out as medium ), it gets +5 AC at level 4, Dex 19 = AC 19. Another 2 levels do nothing. According to the Bestiary I
"storywise" I'd feel very awkward having the crew "press" the Roc for convenience sake and stow it underdeck. Just saying. And I do not see that bird either contribute much in underwater combat, and a massive nuisance when it comes to food. Nevermind that rocs live and breed in high desert mountains...... And since the Roc is not intelligent yet, I either do not see it do much with a swim speed.... Any tricks for that ?
I mean, let's put a swim speed on my chimpanzee or cat (both of which are deadly afraid of water). and yeah, cormorants or penguins swim very well underwater... but with webbed feet or specialised wings. And please take note that the Roc will take hours to dry out after having been submerged (just take a quick look at Cormorants )
I get the distinct feeling that there is both some foreknowledge of the plot, and you being very (to the point of excessively so) generous on your co-GMs take on things ?
If you ignore the rules for Darkvision, Blindsight that does not help anyone either, the AP is not to easy.
Its the GM making very soft calls.
Have fun with the jellyfish, the Ancient Mariner and generally not letting the groups' wondrous concepts traipse all over you.
that is my fault on being a newer GM.
.
Ah now I see, sorry dude. That might explain a lot then. It's not really and AP for newish GM's it has a lot of comlicated elements too it such as the underwater combat, infamy tracking, ship combat and rum rations to get you're head around as well as remembering the rules.
It also sounds maybe that Part 1 was not as easy as you make out and part 2 seems to be where its easy (maybe).
As Vikingson says it looks like some of the players may have some insight in to the adventure which does'n't help. I also feel that as you are a newish GM they are playing on that a little and seeing what they can get away with (Roc comapanion for instance). My advice is to read through the advice in this forum. There are a number of really good ideas to change things around and make them slightly different do this and you may find the players will enjoy it more as they won't know whats coming.
One thing you do need to do is experiment a bit too, as I said earlier if the (I think rather too optimised) group is finding things too easy then alter the encounters a bit, try adding levels to the Mummy or Krelloot or maybe throwing in a few more concubines, make the final room a real showdown, Krelloot has blindsense so remember that when the rogue tries the sneak move and remember the number of attacks he gets too.
Oh and that roc, im not sure how big it is but maybe if its in the tunnels of the cavern have it get stuck some of those tunnels are a little on the small side...oh and air bubble...it only lasts for 1 min per level so unless they stormed their way through the caverns the bird would have run out of air (another spell for the druid wasted to cast another).
The main thing to figure out if things are easy for the group is the correct encounter balance. it may take a couple of encounters to get it right and you may make things too hard but then just lower it the next time, somewhere you will find the balance and thins will work out.
I really do think that something is not adding up as we have all said the AP as written is not easy it seems to me its a combination of a newish GM and players being too optimised, player foreknowledge of the AP, difficult rules to master, GM leniance, 20 point buy instead of 15 (don't think this is a major issue though) and that damn Roc.
Vikingson
I read what you posted and though it was right...then I continued to read. Scroll down the Roc has a natural armor of +5 to start with. as well as the dexterity of +4. Then I read:
"As you gain levels, your animal companion improves as well, usually at 4th or 7th level, in addition to the standard bonuses noted on Table: Animal Companion Base StatisticsÈ
that means by level 6 this rock has started with +5 Natural +4 Dex. then over the levels from 1-6 has collected another +4 Natural from that table as well as +2 str&dex.
AC=24, then he has taken dodge and leather. =27AC?
Lastly, with touch of the sea spell the bird grows web feet and its talons surely could still attack, the only questionable one would be its bite with air bubble on. I agree it is obsured, its simply creativity vs a gm call.
Ferrinwulf
Yes I am a new Gm, I am however in book 5 of Serpent Skull and that game is running great. And I am thinking of adding some levels to some things to make it more challenging
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It's all about fun man. By now it seems clear we've all agreed there was some GM leniency going on and a bit of minor rules misunderstanding. The AP is definitely not too easy, but the number one factor in the difficulty is probably player skill and foreknowledge. #2 is probably GMing style. There's no real way for Paizo to make an AP that every group finds equally challenging. Too much variability in play style.
Less important than how hard it is is whether your group (and you) are enjoying themselves. Toss in a few extra nasty surprises and enjoy!
let's agree to disagree on the Roc. I'd also... like to point out
I'd still wonder about a 5 person group, under the influence of two sets of 1 minute/level spells to even operate effectively - that's 6 minutes total... than recast 5 times on every one (and I don't see Touch of the Sea giving any understanding of actually being able to swim to an INT 2 airborne creature ) crashing through the dungeons as easily as described.
With a 6th level druid having likely 13 spells (including bonus spells) overall. Yes the Alchemist (9 spells maximum )and the Oracle (20 spells total, may need to heal at times^^ )can individually help out on the spells, but let's remember that the alchemists infusions cannot be consumed underwater
42 x 6 minutes, divide by 5 for players and companion. Never casting anything else. Two of the casters not even having any other options left under this scenario.
Your call. But please do not try to make me believe this AP is "too easy"
? im not trying to make you believe anything, I started the thread to get input from others as you were.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/spells/airBubble.html
Reading air bubble, though, wouldnt the alchemist be able to drink a potion with air bubble? If a gun could be loaded with it a potion flask could be drank?
I think the jist is that it's only easy because YOU are making it easy by waving rules too much, creativity that seems a little odd and GM calls that favour the players too much.
This is by no means meant to be rude or anything by the way, I'm just trying to answer you're original question as honestly as I can.
But that's OK if you want to play it that way, its only a game after all and that means you should be having fun. Maybe next time try not to be so leniant if you want a challenge. :))
@ Vikingson - Darkvision does nothing to dispel shadows. Shadowdancer rules specify they need shadow to stealth. Darkvision does nothing more to hinder shadowdancer stealth that it does any other rogue.
That is sheer and utter ......nonsense.
Shadow/shadowy is a condition of "visible" light... which darkvision circumvents. So the Shadowdancer "hides" in nothingness and than meets the rules of not actually being hidden by anything after that."The subject gains the ability to see 60 feet even in total darkness. Darkvision is black and white only but otherwise like normal sight."
"Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/vision-and-light
"If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast."
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/stealth
Please take note, there are hardly "unobserved" shady places if people with Darkvision are around.
Never mind you cannot stealth while being externally observed by Blindsense (unless you are Invisible ). e.g. the Sahuagin.
And beyond that - let's not enter into the "unexplained by the rules" problem of "stealthily swimming by someone without being noticed by turbulence and water pressure, or the fact that an invisible creature leaves a visible bubble in the water while the allegedly stealthed character of course if utterly transparent... with a 6' boarding pike
@ Vikingson - Darkvision does nothing to dispel shadows. Shadowdancer rules specify they need shadow to stealth. Darkvision does nothing more to hinder shadowdancer stealth that it does any other rogue.That is sheer and utter ......nonsense.
Shadow/shadowy is a condition of "visible" light... which darkvision circumvents. So the Shadowdancer "hides" in nothingness and than meets the rules of not actually being hidden by anything after that."The subject gains the ability to see 60 feet even in total darkness. Darkvision is black and white only but otherwise like normal sight."
"Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/vision-and-light
"If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast."
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/stealth
Please take note, there are hardly "unobserved" shady places if people with Darkvision are around.
Never mind you cannot stealth while being externally observed by Blindsense (unless you are Invisible ). e.g. the Sahuagin.
And beyond that - let's not enter into the "unexplained by the rules" problem of "stealthily swimming by someone without being noticed by turbulence and water pressure, or the fact that an invisible creature leaves a visible bubble in the water while the allegedly stealthed character of course if utterly transparent... with a 6'...
Vikingson he may have a small point here.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light.
Blindsense (Ex) Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment.
Its one of those very fine line instances I think, yes darkvison means you see but then hide in plain sight means the shadowdancer can hide. I would say he may be correct however as the sahughin have darkvision I would say they get a bonus on their preception check to notice him.
As for Blindsight as below the creature still needs to be able to see the shadowdancer, its still blindly hitting as it can sense its there somewhere but can't see it.
So yes I can see his point BUT the hide in plain sight is NOT automatic success everytime even though he can use it, the creature should still get a perception roll to notice it due to its darkvision and blindsight I would have thought.
Again I think this is one of those built for optimisation moments to counter the monster abilites and the GM letting the payer get away with too much (like the air bubble spell and the Roc).
I think it's why this a cake walk for them to be honest and their boredom threshold is starting to show because of it.
It is kind of strange though as I have seen 2 posts in the last 2 weeks that go from one extreme to the other. I can't remember the post but I recall one group saying it was so deadly they lost 20 pc's in the first part and had had enough.
So for some it seems its really deadly and others are finding it a cake walk, me like you and most of the others I think find it challenging and verging on the slighlty hard without being too deadly but very rewarding if played correctly.
Does an orc with darkvision being in darkness make the darkness not dark, ie he sheds non-obfuscation as an aura, maybe functioning something like... as the daylight spell...
Or do shadows exist even if orcs and goblins are in them?
If shadows just don't exist for orcs with darkvision, can an orc see a shadow-- since it's invisible to him?
Does an orc looking at a wizard casting shadow evocation turn off the spell?
If an orc is near a creature with a shadow-step ability-- if they stand in dim light, they can teleport to other dim-light within a certain range-- can the creature shadow step?
If an orc is a shadowdancer, can they use their own hide in plain sight, even though they can't see shadows to hide in? Can they see their own shadow companion?
Can an orc stealth in dim light or darkness since it doesn't give themselves concealment and therefore makes it unstealthable?
Does an orc with darkvision being in darkness make the darkness not dark, ie he sheds non-obfuscation as an aura, maybe functioning something like... as the daylight spell...
Or do shadows exist even if orcs and goblins are in them?
If shadows just don't exist for orcs with darkvision, can an orc see a shadow-- since it's invisible to him?
Does an orc looking at a wizard casting shadow evocation turn off the spell?
If an orc is near a creature with a shadow-step ability-- if they stand in dim light, they can teleport to other dim-light within a certain range-- can the creature shadow step?
If an orc is a shadowdancer, can they use their own hide in plain sight, even though they can't see shadows to hide in? Can they see their own shadow companion?
Can an orc stealth in dim light or darkness since it doesn't give themselves concealment and therefore makes it unstealthable?
Not really sure where you are going with this.it’s all very confusing. Maybe its in reply to Vikingson's post (some relevence or reason as to why you mention it might help, it feels kind of random and going off on a wild tangent lol).As far as I can see it would all depend on the spell descriptions etc and the right adjudication by the GM on the situation. As far as I can see all the above would need to be looked at on an individual basis before you could say yes or no.
My point is just that the rogue is a first level shandowdancer so he can hide in plain sight using the stealth skill (it does not get any special shadow illusions or creating it’s own shadow yet until level 3 at least, things would be different then I would guess).
The Sahaugin have darkvsion and blindsight so they have a better chance at noticing Him than a normal humanoid. The Rogue still has to roll his stealth skill to set the DC for the Sahghin's perception check as he’s only using his stealth skill.
Yes as far as I can see the shadwdancer can hide in plain sight BUT as Vikingson has said Darkvsion means that the creature would be able to see as normal in dim light, hence the shadowdancer would probably be spotted (You cant see me it’s dark…um actually I can see in the dark..DAMN!).
The shadowdancer at level 1 does not make shadows and is really just slightly better at hiding and using stealth hding in plain sight in dim light.
So by that rationale unless he is using some other skill/magic etc the creature still has a preception check chance to spot him. I think its only fair that a creature who has better vision in the dark has some kind of bonus to spot him so I would say +10 perception using its darkvision (Don’t forget hide in PLAIN sight means directlty in front I would say hence the large bonus to perception if it was behind using stealth then darkvsion would not matter anyway). If the creature had no darksight then the shadowdancer would act as normal and the creature would have no bonus to it’s roll
If it can’t spot him and as it has blindsight then drop the 50% miss chance to 25% due to its darkvision ability.
Which ever way you look at it the creature should have a perception roll to notice the rogue. I would think the creture dosnt jsut spot him and the rogue can sometimes be spotted, the rogues position should dictate if the cretaure with darkvison has a bonus to its roll or not
All seems fair to me.
There is shadowstuff (from the plane of shadow to which illusionists gain access ).
And yes - to an Orc and Dwarf, shadows do exist, but they do not provide concealment (obfuscation).
And the problem with Blindsense is - it DOES observe a creature, even if it is vague about the precise location which means no stealth is possible.
And of course there is no direction to senses in Pathfinder - while realism would dictate otherwise.
But then again, to further that debate... we should move it to the rules forum. As the rules stand though it becomes very hard to stealth a Sahuagin.
The main problem I usually experience with is, that players forget they need to stay behind some "cover" to actually remain in stealth
as for @Ice Titan... please let's stop the philosophical waxing.
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I can see you're point about stealth and the need for some kind of cover and totally agree with you but as far as I can see that's not what hide in plain sight actually means or how it works.
From how I understand it, it means you are standing directly in the creatures line of sight without any kind of cover, the ability means you are blending in to the background whether that is using a crowd, light, dark, clothing or camouflage is up to the GM and player to decide.
Remember it's a Supernatural ability it's not meant to be realistic however daft it may sound to you, it does state that the Shadowdancer can hide in the open without anything to hide behind so long as it is within 10ft of dim light, its not an automatic success however and the creature still gets a perception check to notice it.
Blindsense: yes it can sense something is there but as the shadowdancer is under concealment with its hide in plain sight it cant quiet figure out where it is. The blindsense ability does state that if a creature is concealed then it still has a miss chance top hit it if it fails a perception check to find it. I would say the hide in plain sight would be classed as concleament as its a supernatural ability (gm call I guess)
To say that the Shadowdancer automatically succeeds at hide in plain sight is a bad GM call in my opinon (not to say the OP has done this though, its just a for instance)
To say the Hide in plain sight will not work on the Sahaugin due to its darkvsion and blindsense again is a bad GM call in my opinion as it's completly negating the players special ability and the player has a right to be annoyed by that.
Give it a chance and let him roll his stealth and give the Sahaugin a bonus to spot him. If the creature succeeds then the hide in plain sight does not work and its free to hit him as normal. If the creature fails then it can't quiet make him out but senses its there somewhere so it can swing to hit but lower the miss chance due to its darkvsion.
But we have gone off tangent a bit to the OP's original post..is it too easy...no lol
I just decided to give a +5 Bonus to perception when looking into darkness for that purpose. It's an argument no one will win until a author of the rules makes a ruling.
I can see you're point about stealth and the need for some kind of cover and totally agree with you but as far as I can see that's not what hide in plain sight actually means or how it works.
Works perfectly well for the ranger, based on terrain
and blindsense does know quite well which Square he is in
From how I understand it, it means you are standing directly in the creatures line of sight without any kind of cover, the ability means you are blending in to the background whether that is using a crowd, light, dark, clothing or camouflage is up to the GM and player to decide.Remember it's a Supernatural ability it's not meant to be realistic however daft it may sound to you, it does state that the Shadowdancer can hide in the open without anything to hide behind so long as it is within 10ft of dim light, its not an automatic success however and the creature still gets a perception check to notice it.
Blindsense: yes it can sense something is there but as the shadowdancer is under concealment with its hide in plain sight it cant quiet figure out where it is. The blindsense ability does state that if a creature is concealed then it still has a miss chance top hit it if it fails a perception check to find it. I would say the hide in plain sight would be classed as concleament as its a supernatural ability (gm call I guess)
To say that the Shadowdancer automatically succeeds at hide in plain sight is a bad GM call in my opinon (not to say the OP has done this though, its just a for instance)
I find the ability to sneak-charge over a battlefield "in plain sight" at 6th level both way overpowered, breaking the rules as written and offering massive advantages against any and all detections a group might have.
Next thing : Scent does not work either ? Nor does Glitterdust ?
Extrapolate the consequences of "I can hide in something non-existent, so nonexistent it is not even perceived by many" as sort of a GIMME-GIMME power. The shadowdancer is free to hide and advance along walls or via obstacles, but waltzing straight in ?....
To say the Hide in plain sight will not work on the Sahaugin due to its darkvsion and blindsense again is a bad GM call in my opinion as it's completly negating the players special ability and the player has a right to be annoyed by that.
huh, one monster in the underwater dungeon can do that..... next thing : golems immune to magic.
Sorry, I harbour no pity for shadowdancers unware of their own limits.
Give it a chance and let him roll his stealth and give the Sahaugin a bonus to spot him. If the creature succeeds then the hide in plain sight does not work and its free to hit him as normal. If the creature fails then it can't quiet make him out but senses its there somewhere so it can swing to hit but lower the miss chance due to its darkvsion.But we have gone off tangent...
yes we have^^
glitterdust inflicts a -40 on stealth checks. or it did in 3.5
Parable also be aware of spells and durations. The Druid and the oracle are the only 2 that can cast air bubble. They have 10 1st level spell slots between them. 5 are needed to cats air bubble. The Druid I'm assuming is also using 1 to cast touch of the sea. That leaves 4 slots left. Air bubble will last 6 mins, they need to get in to the caverns, explore then get out. 3 mins in 3 mins out, 1 use of air bubble is not enough, they only have 4 slots left, with 4 pc's and the roc that's not enough even if they cast it 1 more time...someone is going to drown.......I would say half way through the tunnels if not sooner ittvwould run out along with touch of the sea as it has the same duration, they are in serious trouble if they have no back up no air and no swim speed is death( water breathing is what they need not air bubble, air bubble is a quick emergency spell).
Parable also be aware of spells and durations. The Druid and the oracle are the only 2 that can cast air bubble. They have 10 1st level spell slots between them.
hmm I assumed in my calculations that they also had prepared 2nd and 3rd levels slots for 1st level ones^^
Did I mention that I also like his "co-GM" contributing to this thread.^^
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Vikingson I'm going to have to correct your common but incorrect view of the interaction of dim light, darkvision, and HiPS.
Having darkvision does not change the fact that an area of dim light exists, and that is all HiPS requires to function (w/in 10 feet). An orc may be able to see through darkness and shadows, but the lighting conditions are still there. A shadowdancer could use HiPS in front of a devil with the "see in darkness" ability just as easily.
Here's a similar situation that darkvision doesn't change. An orc is standing in an area of dim light when a deeper darkness spell is cast. The spell reduces the lighting condition from dim light, which the orc sees through normally, to supernaturally dark which the orc can no longer see through.
because the orc could see through the dim light did not change the fact that there was a condition of dim light.
--School of Vrock
Vikingson I'm going to have to correct your common but incorrect view of the interaction of dim light, darkvision, and HiPS.
Having darkvision does not change the fact that an area of dim light exists, and that is all HiPS requires to function (w/in 10 feet). An orc may be able to see through darkness and shadows, but the lighting conditions are still there. A shadowdancer could use HiPS in front of a devil with the "see in darkness" ability just as easily.
Here's a similar situation that darkvision doesn't change. An orc is standing in an area of dim light when a deeper darkness spell is cast. The spell reduces the lighting condition from dim light, which the orc sees through normally, to supernaturally dark which the orc can no longer see through.
because the orc could see through the dim light did not change the fact that there was a condition of dim light.
--School of Vrock
a... ha...
Based on what part of the rules would that statement rest, precisely ?
Or on what part of common logic/sense ?
Darkvision - by the rules - supercedes darkness within its range. Darkness (or dim light) does not exist for its user. Hence, you cannot hide in or behind something that is not existent for the observer. Same as for smell, sonar, touch or blindsight based on another sensory means (say... Lifesight... yeah that was 3.5 only as far as I can remember ). Same as hiding behind an illusion (concealment, right) if the observer has a means of reliably penetrating the illusion - say true sight or a gem of seeing.
By your take on the rules, an orc could backstab/sneak attack anyone in total darkness, but not in dim/shadowy light which gives concealment ?
let's wait a second
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
Taken from this part of the rules : http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/vision-and-light
nevermind the following further down on the same rules entry...
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
there is NOTHING about cover or the Shadowdancer gaining invisibility or any sort of cover from Hide in Plain Sight...
A shadowdancer might hide in or behind a shadowy area, which conceals it... unfortunately, those DO NOT exist for characters with darkvision ? So there is nothing to "slip into" because there is no shadowy area within 10' (and you are hiding from the observer, not from... reality, right ? After all, blindsight still finds you, as does smell, leaving an underwater wake... etc.).
By your take, an orc would face a 20% chance of concealment, because "in fact" the target is in a dim light area.... though one which he ignores ? Same for sonar (blindsight) ? Because... there was "dim light" ?
*shrug*
In all honesty, perhaps ask a GM/rules designer ? Or just play it differently to the factual rules while at your own table.
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I think you keep missing the hide IN PLAIN SIGHT aspect of HiPS. A shadowdancer isn't hiding behind or in anything at all, they are hiding in plain sight. Proximity to dim light merely powers this ability.
Darkvision doesn't supercede darkness, it merely lets a creature see up to 60 feet in black and white in areas of dim light or darkness. It doesn't change the fact that there is a condition of dim light or darkness. It does neagate concealment relative to the observer allowing sneak attacks and the ability to make Stealth checks normally. HiPS however is not a normal Stealth check. Specifically being within 10 feet of the condition of dim light is all that is required for a shadowdancer with HiPS to make a Stealth check while they are being observed. It doesn't matter if the creature has regular vision, low-light vision, darkvision, or the devil & darkfolk's "see in darkness" ability. They are not invisible, merely using a (Su) Stealth ability.
The observers sight is wholly divorced from the requirements for HiPS. If A (w/in 10 feet of dim light) than B (you may make a Stealth check while being observed).
Your example is the opposite of this situation. When it comes to making a sneak attack the burden is on the sneak attacker to be able to see the target and therefore darkvision negates the concealment provided by darkness. With HiPS the onus is on the creature using HiPS to make a Stealth check being within 10 feet of dim light, not the observer's ability to see.
--Schoolhouse Vrock
yeah well, hide in dim shadows that DO NOT EXIST. Not in the first place. To the observer. Who you make a stealth check against... You do not approach him/her in concealment. Concealment/cover that does not exist to anyone with darkvision.
By our take, blindsight, blindsense, scent... hey even touch are.. useless because the Shadowdancer (or whatever uses a similar power) is hiding in a shadow... and hence is in STEALTH. Oh wait it is actually not at all...
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.
Once the Shadowdancer is with 60' there is no more concealment, no more cover provided by dim light. And he/she is "only" using the normal "Stealth" skill according to the power description, although with extraordinary conditions. But those DO NOT apply to those with Darkvision. So... no more extraordinary conditions for stealthing, or rather using stealth ? Or do you think that someone walking over open ground from stealthed cover is still "hiding" ? Let'S go into "stealth" in dim shadows and run over ground covered in bright light all the way, with no cover ? Just because the Shadowdancer noticed something shadowy some time beforehand ?
But yes, the Shadowdancer would be "in stealth" for everyone else without darkvision if there is dim light. Just not for those who have darkvision. Welcome to Orcland.
oh, and nevermind the Sahuagin, who where the initial opponent in this thread approached in "Shadowdancer hide in plain sight " have Blindsense anyways. They do "observe" the Shadowdancer, without sight. Bon chance !
please, let's just take this to the rules forum. This is getting tiresome. And it is not about "too easy" as far as the AP is concerned, or is it ?
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Here's a link to the most recent thread about this subject (in which I am a poster) and it breaks it down very succinctly. Note especially Shadowlord's break down towards the end of page 2.
Here's a link to the most recent thread about this subject (in which I am a poster) and it breaks it down very succinctly. Note especially Shadowlord's break down towards the end of page 2.
So. I see a lot of players arguing that Shadowdance should be treated one way (which they like). There is also a number of well reasoned players who think differently.
Notice anything ? Players. Not the crew designing the game.
As for "too easy" : we lost six chars over all (then lost the whole crew in a major gambit at the end). Three in the first installment, then one in the second, the other two over time. Strangely enough, two players made it through to the AP's finale with their initial chars (Rosie and our Witch, and the captain character was lost only just before our take of AP#6)....
So AP#1 probably was/is the most deadly part of the whole run^^
I just think its a confusing rule that contridicts the other so the best course of action that I can see is either.
a) Get an official responce as to how its used with differnt kinds of vision/sight. or Until then....
b) Just make a damn judgement call and house rule it with everybody else at the table and stick with it. The argument could go on and on and on and on with no clear winner as everybody seems to have a different opinion on how it works. If you want to use it as written then fine, if you don't agree with it be sure the player of the shadowdancer is aware of the ruling BEFORE they decide to play one otherwise you may have one fed up playeron you're hands.
Remember its a fantasy role-playing game its not meant to be realistic (if thats the way you play though that's fine but not everybody wants things to be ultra realistic)
Above all EVERBODY is meant to be having fun.
Above all EVERBODY is meant to be having fun.
Soooooo true.
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I just learned today that dim light does not exist objectively, just subjectively.