What's your opinion?
Is Carrion Crown better than Castle Ravenloft?
Are they even comparable? Or are they too different?
I'm not sure they can be compared directly. Castle Ravenloft is essentially one big dungeon crawl, whereas Carrion Crown is an entire campaign with a lot of traveling.
That said, if you're looking for elements of classic horror in your game, then Carrion Crown is the thing. Ustalav is spooky central for Golarion, and each adventure in the AP focuses on a different type of horrific encounter.
A more direct comparison to Castle Ravenloft would be the fortress of Scarwall from the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP.
They both have elements to recommend them.
Castle Ravenloft can be played as a relatively short campaign centered around the castle and Barovia. It has some very interesting story elements and encounters, but benefits best, I think, if the GM is selective in the set of encounters he chooses to use to produce the mood he wants.
Carrion Crown is obviously longer and more varied than Castle Ravenloft. Whether or not that's better is up to your personal taste.
Thanks for the quick response guys!
I'm gonna check out Fortress of Scarwall.
Thanks for the quick response guys!
I'm gonna check out Fortress of Scarwall.
yeah the fortress of scarwall is a copy paste from EtCR (without the feelings), and Carrion Crown uses some Ravenloft´s elements (check The Night of the Walking Dead and look how that adventure looks very similar to HoH. Even the town looks so much the same)
EtCR has a huge of good points to review, such as the detailed npcs, the handouts, the romance, and this is hard as hell adventure with few character to respawn after one character´s dead (we can say EtCR has a limit on how many characters can play it)
Carrion Crown has a lot of fun, and its very kind with the players (a lot of treasures, a lot of xp, a lot of anything... i recomend this AP in lowest XP to scalate it hardnes), but i have to say, the folklore of this ap drop down at the next volumes comes by.
Actualy, for carrion crown i recomend you the Plugged adventures (Fiddler´s Lament and The Murmuring Fountain if youre looking for ravenloftic feelings) and you can find them here: http://paizo.com/companies/legendaryGames
i also make a transition of The Night of the Walking Dead as another plug adventure (if u want i can drop you but its in spanish)
I think you play Ravenloft as a game where you know you will die often and messily. It gives a sense of freedom.
Playing CC now and played in Ravenloft setting for a couple years back in the days of 2e. Both are very fun. Specifically, Castle Ravenloft is still one of the coolest dungeon designs. One of my biggest beefs with Paizo modules is scrimping on dungeon sizes/scales. It seems like areas are designed more to fit within the one or half page format of the AP then they are to reflect the grandeur of the locale. Some fights take place in ridiculously cramped quarters. Ravenloft was one of the first really good attempts at approximating a large, 3D expansive dungeon. Maybe paizo should consider a two page inside cover or centerfold dungeon design.
Sorry to bother, but what is EtCR ??? Seems pretty good :-)
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft was a 2006 product from Wizards of the Coast. It was a hardcover minicampaign adventure book that updated the 1985 AD&D 1st Edition module I6: Ravenloft to D&D 3.5 rules. It greatly expanded the plot and background of the original module. EtCR did NOT tie in at all to the AD&D 2nd ed Ravenloft Campaign Setting, which had been released in 1990.
I began a conversion of EtCR from 3.5 to Pathfinder about three years ago. I had been a big fan of the original 1985 module, and was very excited to run that agin, writ large, with the Pathfinder ruleset. My initial quick reading of the module cemented it: this would be a blast, and I got a group of players together, with the intention of running it in about three months (to give me time to finish the conversion.)
It was only after I sunk my teeth into the adventure (pardon the pun) that I found a lot of flaws in EtCR.
In general, I found that the writers of EtCR took a "horror movie kitchen sink" approach to the various horror tropes of the module. They included encoutners with a plague of zombies, werewolves, a "hillbilly horror" serial killer, Lovecraftian existential horror, demonic possession, taited and cursed formerly-holy relics, and a coven of evil witches... all in addition to the original Gothic horror of the original module. The individual encounters were all pretty well-designed, but the whole minicampaign really lacked focus, and didn't seem to have a solid underlying theme or plot that held the different set-pieces together. It really felt like a horror grab-bag.
After a couple of months of conversion, I returned to the original 1985 module as inspiration for a more focused Gothic-themed adventure, but converting 1ed AD&D to PF was even more daunting, and that left me with not enough material on which to base a full campaign... so I ended up scrapping the whole Ravenloft idea and ran "Rise of the Runelords" instead.
I haven't read Carion Crown, but if the Paizo APs that I have read are an indication of Paizo's quality, I would definitely recommend Carion Crown over EtCR.
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They both have great strengths and flaws. Carrion Crown is a series of awesome modules, but like too many APs lacks a strong connecting story. We just started book 5 and the story was so lost we are resurrecting characters who died in book 2 just because the current group doesnt know why we are chasing this cult.
EtRC is awesome for theme and story, but my group isnt fond of old school dungeon crawls where you are expected to do a little of the castle, leave, come back and do a little more, etc.
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I began a conversion of EtCR from 3.5 to Pathfinder about three years ago. I had been a big fan of the original 1985 module, and was very excited to run that agin, writ large, with the Pathfinder ruleset. My initial quick reading of the module cemented it: this would be a blast, and I got a group of players together, with the intention of running it in about three months (to give me time to finish the conversion.)
did ypu still have your conversion?
im planning to join the CC with EtCR (between 5 & 6 adventure with some elements from scarnwall)all of the adventure i mention before, and carrion hill as another plug between 3&4 Chapters...
so, at the end of my CC campaign there are all of this AP
Prologue
Once Upon Harrowstone (the background story with premaded characters), in this one night session, the players incarnate Hawkran´s man, and has to take down by theyselves the five prisioners, and thats all... then they must to try to stop the fire and fall...
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HoH
-plugged adventures
--Night of the Walking Dead
--Fiddler´s Lamment
--Murmuring Fountain
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Agents of the Whispering way I
here, the players encarnate all the Vrood´s companions, starting from carrion hill (setting the events for that module), and then they must go to Ravengro... theres one encounter here with the profesor.
after that, they go to lepisdat and has to bring auren the control for the golem, take the statue and ran away
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Trial of the Beast
-Plugged adventure
--The Midnight Mauler PFS3-16 module
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Agents of the Whispering Way II
the players return to encarnate the evil crew and has to set all the plots for the third adventure
-----------------------------------
Broken Moon (added NPC: Harkon Lucas)
-plugged adventure
--Carrion Hill at the end of BM
--------------------------------
since the events at the end of BM theres no more AotWW adventures.
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Wake of the Watcher
--yet nothing interesting to plug here
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Ashes at Dawn
-Plugged Adventures
-- Darkest Vengeance PFS#47
--Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
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Shadows of Gallowspire
At the end of AaD im trying to transform into vampires to the pcs, i want to see how they resolve the SoG fighting undead with undead abilities/weaknesses!!
It was only after I sunk my teeth into the adventure (pardon the pun) that I found a lot of flaws in EtCR.
I agree with what Haladir said (with the caveat that the original I6: Ravenloft did have some non-gothic elements, such as red dragons and crypts with pun names on them), but what really killed EtCR for me was the "delve/encounter" format, where all encounters were made to fit onto a two-page spread, that was segregated from the main text of the adventure.
To this day, that format utterly kills my enthusiasm.
One of my problems with EtCR was how the gypsies were changed. I like the Vistani from 2e's Ravenloft campaign setting, and all of a sudden they've become halflings! The Ravenloft setting is supposed to be humano-centric so as to get away from the "standard fantasy" setting's potpourri of races.
And to add to Haladir's answer to Mendahin:
There was also a 3.x update to the 2e Ravenloft setting, published by Sword and Sorcery (under White Wolf's Arthaus imprint). If you intend to buy just be aware that, after 3.5 came, they re-published the basic setting book in two books (a PBH and DMG, both with extra material) as well as a re-named monster book (all three superceded their 3.0 versions).
Also (according to some), one or two of the smaller sourcebooks varied in quality. (IIRC, Heroes of Light was one of them.)
All the 3.x books are out of print, but can most likely be found in various places off- and on-line.
More information on the Ravenloft setting can be found at:
www.fraternityofshadows.com
and
www.kargatane.com
Also, a fan-made PF conversion (partial only, IIRC) is at mistfinder on blogspot.
I began a conversion of EtCR from 3.5 to Pathfinder about three years ago. I had been a big fan of the original 1985 module, and was very excited to run that agin, writ large, with the Pathfinder ruleset. My initial quick reading of the module cemented it: this would be a blast, and I got a group of players together, with the intention of running it in about three months (to give me time to finish the conversion.)
did ypu still have your conversion?
im planning to join the CC with EtCR (between 5 & 6 adventure with some elements from scarnwall)all of the adventure i mention before, and carrion hill as another plug between 3&4 Chapters...
so, at the end of my CC campaign there are all of this AP
Well, I do, but I really don't know how much interest it would have to anyone other than myself.
All I have are plot outlines, timelines, and notes about which WOTC-IP monsters to convert to which PFRPG monsters. Most of my notes refer to major plotlines were very specific to my PCs and the homebrew world that I had set the adventure. All of the "crunch" stuff that I wrote was lead-in to the actual EtCR...
So I guess the real answer to your question is "no," because I switched gears before doing any of the actual stat conversion.
In general, I found that the writers of EtCR took a "horror movie kitchen sink" approach to the various horror tropes of the module.
...
I haven't read Carion Crown, but if the Paizo APs that I have read are an indication of Paizo's quality, I would definitely recommend Carion Crown over EtCR.
No, you wouldn't, because you just ended up describing Carrion Crown (which is actually even more disjointed than EtCR). ;)
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I agree that Carrion Crown is a bit disjointed if you run it as-written. But if you take a little advice from these here boards -- like working the final boss into the early adventures as a mysterious NPC, and maybe using a certain professor's daughter as a major NPC throughout the campaign -- then it can be really cool.
If you're looking for a horror mini-campaign with a nod to Ravenloft, look to Rite Publishing/Cubicle 7's Curse of the Golden Spear introductory 3 module campaign (5-8th level) for use with the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror. The 3 modules are The Gift, Dim Spirit and Dark Path. This is definitely not a disjointed adventure path - all modules receiving multiple 5 star ratings by the reviewers.
You could look at Frozen Wind, a one-shot adventure available as a free PDF download to get an idea on the horror aspects to the Kaidan setting.
While Kaidan's horror aspects are uniquely Japanese, the adventures and supplements could easily fit a Rokushima Taiyoo or I'Cath based Ravenloft game.
i usually create some backgrounds for every adventure i run (mostly own, this AP is my first incurtion in premade adventures)
and this wasn´t the exception. I create 10 background histories for the beginning of this AP concerning strange deads in the character friends, and make the WW suspect of it, but dont make clear how, and at my campaign the professor is alive when the pcs came to Ravengro and know him there (to create a real empathy between the pcs and professor)
and for every adventure i create 4 backup backgrounds mantaining them linked to the plot (in case one of them dies and create another pc for the adventure).
maybe its an authoritical perform, but it works and they do not feel forced to fit and follow the plot without a real motive for doing so.
As for EtCR. Played it, and read the script since.
While it takes an iconic location, but it does very little with it, with no real "undead" castle feel to it. The plot also severely limits a group's choices, both by cramping acquisition of useful equipment, making replacement of characters very inconvenient, effectively reducing a group down to a bunch of paladins and possibly clerics and having some extremely deadly encounters early on in the story (*cough* Circle of Death randomly cast on 6th level group).
Besides the complete story feeling disjointed : zombie horror, demonic Witchcraft, corruption of the natural forces, vampiric horror. Nevermind the sheer randomness of many plot elements. And the inconvenient setup of loactions - the descriptions of rooms are spatially divided from their maps and encounters.
It will/would require some strong editing to feel less disjointed and more like a cohesive whole. Reworking parts of Carrion Crown seems like significantly less work
Back in the 2e days I had a blast running House of Strahd (the 2e update to Castle Ravenloft). For Pathfinder, if you're looking for a haunted castle adventure I would again recommend Scarwall. Best way to describe it is Hellraiser meets Castle Ravenloft. I'm not big on dungeon crawls but this adventure really worked for my group. EtCR while I wanted to like it and it is still a useable adventure feels like more work than needed.
This depends, as far as overall flavor goes they can be very similar but we are comparing 1e through 2e with Pathfinder. One major difference is the mapping of Castle Ravenloft and subsequent Ravenloft material is (IMHO) much superior to anything in the CC AP.
This depends, as far as overall flavor goes they can be very similar but we are comparing 1e through 2e with Pathfinder. One major difference is the mapping of Castle Ravenloft and subsequent Ravenloft material is (IMHO) much superior to anything in the CC AP.
I'd honestly prefer better designed encounters and a more coherent plot over the 3D design of Ravenloft. Especially since it is well broken up with the setpiece encounter areas of EtCR.
And the plot of 1E Ravenloft... while nothing epic to write home about, was more stringent and conclusive.
This depends, as far as overall flavor goes they can be very similar but we are comparing 1e through 2e with Pathfinder. One major difference is the mapping of Castle Ravenloft and subsequent Ravenloft material is (IMHO) much superior to anything in the CC AP.
i clap stand!!
Ravenloft has a lot of flavor in every corner...
CC AP has a lot of plastic taste (until murmuring fountain and fiddlers lament came, sadly those just for HoH)
The original Ravenloft was great of course, the 3.5 Expedition was a pretty nice update even if they butchered it with the "Delve" format.
That said, both Ravenloft and Carrion Crown (my #3 fave AP behind KM and RotR btw) are excellent BUT both need some GM work, like any other AP. A good GM needs to be dynamic and less static running things as written.
The big issue on the boards is that most people dont look at APs (or any adventure for that matter) as framework to be altered by GMs. Any adventure/campaign can be great if the GM alters it to the Players style, from weaving the PC backstories into the main plot, to endgame ramifications.
YMMV
The original Ravenloft was great of course, the 3.5 Expedition was a pretty nice update even if they butchered it with the "Delve" format.
That said, both Ravenloft and Carrion Crown (my #3 fave AP behind KM and RotR btw) are excellent BUT both need some GM work, like any other AP. A good GM needs to be dynamic and less static running things as written.
The big issue on the boards is that most people dont look at APs (or any adventure for that matter) as framework to be altered by GMs. Any adventure/campaign can be great if the GM alters it to the Players style, from weaving the PC backstories into the main plot, to endgame ramifications.
YMMV
indeed, i change things in the premade adventures path, ill never run one of those till cc.
and what is a GM and a Narrator has its diferencies:
1.- GM: world developer, rules shapers, rewriter of classes, feats, spells and thing a gm think dont commune with his group style of play
2.- Narrator: those who read page by page and create paradoxes when the players picks other route
im a GM and for every adventure i remade, cut, shape, change some rules for that adventure (for this app i have a lot of time, since im not the creator of this ap, and that way i can fill with flavor for my pcs)
btw im planning to put EtCR (mixed with scarnwall), instead Bastardhall (that 100 years like castlevania dont likes me so much)
This thread got me to thinking that I really don't want my copy of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft any more.
It's in very good condition, with very little cover wear and no pencil marks. The only marring in the book at all is a bookplate inside the front cover with my name on it.
This book seems to go for $50-$75 on the Interwebs, but I'd let it go for $40, including shipping withing the US.
PM me if you're interested.
(BTW, I have a few other 3.5 hardcovers I'd like to sell to a good home. I was thinking $15 each for those.)