So, I'm coming from this thread that became a bit infected. Basically, the topic of discussion is "should mundane crafters be good at crafting exceptional stuff". I'm of the opinion that they should, and that it's a trope that should be recognized and supported by the rules. This thread is not for discussing "if", but rather "how" that trope can be supported.
I think feats are a good way. To be more precise, this is my proposal, replacing master craftsman:
EXCEPTIONAL ITEMS
Exceptional items are of even higher quality than masterwork items. All exceptional items are also masterwork. They provide an enhancement bonus to various statistics.
Weapon & Armor: Exceptional weapons and armor are treated as if enchanted with an enhancement bonus equal to it's exceptional bonus, except that it is not a magical bonus. The price of an exceptional weapon or armor is the same as corresponding magical piece of equipment. They can be enchanted.
Tools: An exceptional tool apply it's enhancement bonus to one skill fitting for the tool in question. An exceptional tome might provide a bonus to knowledge checks, an exceptional mask might apply it to disguise checks. The price of an exceptional tool is (bonus squared * 300 gp). This may be limited by DM adjudication.
SKILLED CRAFTSMAN
Prerequisite: Craft (any) 3 ranks
Benefit: Choose one Craft skill in which you possess at least 3 ranks. You are exceptionally good at that craft. You gain a +2 bonus on that craft.
You may also apply Accelerated Crafting several times, and each time doubles the amount of silver pieces per day (apply this after calculating the roll * DC) and stacks exponentially. Thus, taking +20 to the DC increases the amount of silver per day by 4 times (apart from the standard increase by higher DC).
In addition, you may create Exceptional with a bonus no higher than +1.
Special: This feat may be taken several times. Each time it applies to a different craft.
MASTER CRAFTSMAN
Prerequisite: Skilled Craftsman; Craft (same as Skilled Craftsman) 7 ranks.
Benefit: Your skill in crafting is truly amazing. You can craft exceptional items of your chosen craft, the only requirement being that you must have 3 ranks per enhancement bonus applied. You cannot craft exceptional items with an enhancement bonus higher than +6. When working with special materials, the time required to craft does not increase. In addition, choose one of the following benefits:
Imbue - You may craft magical items of your craft as if you had Craft Magic Arms & Armor or Craft Wondrous Items (choose one).
Expert - You know almost every fact of your craft. Whenever you would make a knowledge or appraise check concerning your craft, you may add your craft modifier to that roll.
Networked - You are well-known and well-liked among your peers. You gain a +4 bonus on all diplomacy checks when dealing with others of your craft.
Special: This feat may be taken several times. Each time it applies to a different craft.
This means that anyone that focuses on a craft skill can quite quickly be much better than someone who just puts a point into it and has a decent intelligence modifier - already at level 3 they can create something that normal people can't, and create simple items at a quite good rate (a crafter might at this point have +10 or so with ranks and tools, meaning it can craft DC10 items at double normal speed by accelerated crafting. someone really focusing in it can create DC17 or so items at that speed).
At level 7 they can start doing stuff not even casters can, and decently effective. Being able to craft non-magical enhancement bonuses can be cool, but feels balanced as it has both benefits and drawbacks (doesn't penetrate DR/magic, is immune to anti-magic field). The extra bonus ones where to keep the magic crafter for those who want it, but allow for those that want a completely mundane caster to have some benefit too.
Being able to craft +6 items eventually (yay at level 18) means that there's something that can be better done with skill than with magic. I feel that is how it should be, and since it'll be so rare I don't feel it threatens balance at all.
Now, this rules out professions from master craftsman (though they where already in a very gray area of the RAW as to how they worked with MC) and I could see similar feats for professions, but how do you think of these in respect to crafters? Too good? Too weak?
This feat let's you use any craft or profession to make any item within the craft magic arms and armor feat and the craft wondrous items feat once you've taken them as well.
Well, any that can normally be crafted with that skill (note the line "must use", indicating this, but it's not a discussion I want to have here - there's other threads for that), but yes. I'm aware of that as I have noted in the OP. Notice the line "replacing master craftsman". I know how it works, and I dislike how it works, and this is a proposal for how to change it.
Your post does not really add to the purpose of this thread, and rather seems like a continuation of the other thread. Please post things like that there. I started this explicitly to get away from that debate and have a more constructive debate about changes, for those that want changes. I stated this in the OP, and now I state it a second time. Please do not post about "the rules are fine as is" or "casters should have an easier time" because this is not the thread for that.
And I'm saying you're in the wrong thread. My suggestion does not do what the feat does, I think the feat doesn't do what it should and this thread is about that as stated _twice_. Take that to some other thread. It'd be bad if posts had to be flagged.
We actually did an entirely new crafting system for mundane crafters in our book War Journal. We wanted to make crafting not the exclusive domain of mages. It adds a new system for mundane weapon customization.
You've made new feats to do exactly what a feat already does. And you've based it on an assumption that the existing feat doesn't do what it says explicitly that it does.
So you're saying the existing master craftsman allows a person to take the feat, craft a weapon with a non-magical enhancement bonus and if ze so wants, use the feat by itself to add a magical property (or to get a bonus to knowledge checks related to their craft?).
Yeah that's not a stretch of the RAW.
We actually did an entirely new crafting system for mundane crafters in our book War Journal. We wanted to make crafting not the exclusive domain of mages. It adds a new system for mundane weapon customization.
Could you sum it up? I'd consider buying it but I'm a bit short on gaming funds right now.
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I would rather see all crafting fall under one feat. Feat taxing is getting tiresome.
You would be better served by simply having a list of crafting professions that have a equal number of slots associated with each. Then adjust crafting so that it all functions the same way.
I'm flagging posts for off-topic now. Go back to the other thread Khrysador, you don't contribute anything to this despite being explicitly told to stop derailing.
I would rather see all crafting fall under one feat. Feat taxing is getting tiresome.
You would be better served by simply having a list of crafting professions that have a equal number of slots associated with each. Then adjust crafting so that it all functions the same way.
This sounds like a viable and interesting approach. How would you treat magic/mundane crafting, would they differ or be the same? Or do you mean magic items will be crafted like they were just higher-DC more expensive mundane items?
What I'm suggesting is that the new feat would function as master craftsman, however, every associated craft skill that had enough ranks would fall under its umbrella. As soon as a mundane craft fulfills the craft rank requirement, the craft skill is no longer mundane. Crafting is a skill, it requires enough ranks to be skilled enough to make magic items.
Simply adjust the wording of master craftsman to be inclusive, so that it applies to every craft skill that has associated character slots. Then alter the caster level requirement of crafted items into a minimum rank requirement.
It would be best to remove the ability to bypass the rank requirement so that the system would function smoothly with one feat.
What I'm suggesting is that the new feat would function as master craftsman, however, every associated craft skill that had enough ranks would fall under its umbrella. As soon as a mundane craft fulfills the craft rank requirement, the craft skill is no longer mundane. Crafting is a skill, it requires enough ranks to be skilled enough to make magic items.
That sounds reasonable, and a very simple house rule compared to changing the feats in large. How do you feel by the double investment "mundane" crafters need in terms of both MC and the item creation feat itself?
I don't think item creation feats need exist. The feats are not balanced relative to each other, and it creates a disparity that need not exist between crafters of different persuasions.
A wizard will always make a great crafter. Its intelligence will ensure that it stays at the top of the heap. If you want to give it more options with regard to the bonus feats, just give them the option to take skill focus for craft skills.
I don't think item creation feats need exist. The feats are not balanced relative to each other, and it creates a disparity that need not exist between crafters of different persuasions.
A wizard will always make a great crafter. Its intelligence will ensure that it stays at the top of the heap. If you want to give it more options with regard to the bonus feats, just give them the option to take skill focus for craft skills.
So, what you are saying is:
- Item creation feats are removed.- Items are crafted with their related craft/profession skill (and not spellcraft)
- All magic item creation requires master craftsman, but once you have it, you can use it for all crafts in which you have 5 ranks.
Is this correct? That does sound like an interesting and very easily implented rule.
Magic item crafting will be much easier to access for anyone with skills, and most smart characters will quite easily craft simple magic items, but being able to craft the harder ones require quite an investment.
I like it.
I don't think item creation feats need exist. The feats are not balanced relative to each other, and it creates a disparity that need not exist between crafters of different persuasions.
A wizard will always make a great crafter. Its intelligence will ensure that it stays at the top of the heap. If you want to give it more options with regard to the bonus feats, just give them the option to take skill focus for craft skills.
So, what you are saying is:
- Item creation feats are removed.
- Items are crafted with their related craft/profession skill (and not spellcraft)
- All magic item creation requires master craftsman, but once you have it, you can use it for all crafts in which you have 5 ranks.Is this correct? That does sound like an interesting and very easily implented rule.
Magic item crafting will be much easier to access for anyone with skills, and most smart characters will quite easily craft simple magic items, but being able to craft the harder ones require quite an investment.
I like it.
Got it in one.
something I hadn't considered, but I am not certain if the knowledge effect is active unless your attuned, which would mean a lot of swapping time loss.
Again, it isn't a huge issue if minimum skill ranks is not something you can bypass.
Well, that can already be done and compared to Khrysador's interpretation of master craftsman you get no more powerful than that, you just have to get more headbands all the time.
But I agree, that is an issue.
Having them have DC-10 hard ranks as a minimum requirement that can't be bypassed would solve that though.
It sounds like what you really need is a prestige class for 'crafter of legend'.
If you really want to make items that do what magical items do non-magically they need to be more expensive than equivalent magical items, since they can't be suppressed by anti-magic fields or dispel magic, nor be destroyed by mage's disjunction.
Well, that can already be done and compared to Khrysador's interpretation of master craftsman you get no more powerful than that, you just have to get more headbands all the time.
But I agree, that is an issue.
Having them have DC-10 hard ranks as a minimum requirement that can't be bypassed would solve that though.
That's a good call... Don't know how it would be worded.
It sounds like what you really need is a prestige class for 'crafter of legend'.
I think the whole idea behind what I propose is to simplify the rule set and create a crafting equilibrium based on skill rather than magic. As an abstraction, I think the two things are fairly interchangeable. Its just a matter of looking at mechanical interactions.
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I like the idea of exceptional items in theory, but I do see lurking dangers, for example the fighter all dressed in exceptional items cornering a demon inside an Antimagic Field (which tends to suppress DR). I'm sure there's other possible risks.
I don't think that means we should stop thinking about it though. Rather, that we should try to anticipate as many of these side effects as possible. So, any other side effects?
I got one. Combining an exceptional +3 weapon with magical enchantment equivalent to +3. 3^2*2000 * 2 is less than 6^2*2000, so the total gold cost would be lower. However, this is easily fixes; just count nonmagical and magical parts together when determining the price. Apparently it's harder to enchant a +3 exceptional weapon than a +1 exceptional weapon.
It sounds like what you really need is a prestige class for 'crafter of legend'.
A prestige class is one approach, but one that I'd rather not take. Feats are much more versatile and can easier fit into different groups. And, I don't necessarily see this as an "of legend" kind of thing - I think that skilled "normal" crafters should be able to do stuff of higher quality than any random person with a non-negative intelligence and no training can do (as said, the only "high quality" that is is Masterwork, and that's a piddly bonus and just a DC20, so the average 1st level commoner can do one given time and cash. With just some masterwork tools and two untrained commoners helping each other, they can do with decent ease).
I don't think "something greater than the standard at 3rd level" have to be legendary. We most often play E7 and even there something doable at 3rd level is pretty "meh".
If you really want to make items that do what magical items do non-magically they need to be more expensive than equivalent magical items, since they can't be suppressed by anti-magic fields or dispel magic, nor be destroyed by mage's disjunction.
To some extent I agree, but note that non-magic weapons don't bypass the all-too-common DR/magic and such things. But yes, they should probably be up-priced a small bit, maybe 10%?
Then again, I'm okay with magic weapons taking a small step back, from a flavor perspective. Being better against 2 decently common and one pretty rare (because when you cast 9th level spells you usually have something better to do than trying to dispel the fighter's sword) doesn't seem like that balancebreaking, regardless.
I like the idea of exceptional items in theory, but I do see lurking dangers, for example the fighter all dressed in exceptional items cornering a demon inside an Antimagic Field (which tends to suppress DR). I'm sure there's other possible risks.
In that particular case I say if a demon lets itself be cornered by a fighter, it should eat dirt. I think it's nice if fighters have something they're exceptionally good against, that isn't much different than a wizard being able to absolutely murder a horde of lowly goons with Circle of Death or an archer paladin being able to shoot down a dragon in no-time.
Demons, and outsiders in general (and most magic-reliant creatures in general) have very good maneuverability, so they can defend themself - if a preferred tactic against such creatures is to try to maneuver them into a corner and get the fighter before them, I say that's a good thing - fighters getting to be the center of attention a bit more.
But I agree in principle, that:
we should try to anticipate as many of these side effects as possible. So, any other side effects?
This is very relevant.
I got one. Combining an exceptional +3 weapon with magical enchantment equivalent to +3. 3^2*2000 * 2 is less than 6^2*2000, so the total gold cost would be lower. However, this is easily fixes; just count nonmagical and magical parts together when determining the price. Apparently it's harder to enchant a +3 exceptional weapon than a +1 exceptional weapon.
Yes, that was the intent but I realize it was very vaguely written. Thanks for pointing it out.
My rationale for it is that the more exceptional an item is, the more careful you have to be with how you apply the item - an ability that covers it in flames has to be put so the heat is the most intense where the hits actually pierce the target, an ability that draws the weapon to deflect incoming attacks must take into account the very precise balance of the weapon and not upset it, et cetera.
It works "well enough" for me.
On the other hand, I could see allowing some special abilities as nonmagical abilities - defending, keen et cetera.
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I agree about allowing mundane exceptional (sounds a bit like a contradiction) to produce Keen. Not sure about Defending, that trait seems to have tricky rules that cause issues, so I prefer to avoid it. YMMV. But several weapon properties could definitely be done non-magically.
I'm not sure how to implement selecting which things can be made without magic; some obviously magical items (pearl of power) have no spell in their requirements, so basing it off that won't work well. Maybe just a whitelist of properties like enhancement bonuses and Keen that can be made without magic?
I don't think spellcasters are any worse at mundane crafting. With these feats it's possible for them to go the exceptional route instead, although that's probably inefficient. The rules should probably contain a note that spells like Fabricate can't short-cut the whole process; magical item creation feats don't run that fast either.
1) A feat that speeds up mundane crafting to acceptable speeds, like your Skilled Craftsman feat.
2) A revised Master Craftsman feat:
requires: Skilled Craftsman
benefits: You can create exceptional items (from the whitelist) with skills you have Skilled Craftsman in. Your caster level equivalent is the number of ranks in the relevant craft skill you have. You cannot make items if you can't meet the equivalent caster level.
special: You take this feat once, and it applies to all crafts for which you have the Skilled Craftsman feat.
3) Making an item Exceptional requires adding an Exceptional Component to the item similar to the Masterwork Component. The item must already have the Masterwork Component. The EC costs as much to make as the equivalent enchantment. The DC for the EC is the same as for the equivalent enchantment. (Using the enhanced Accelerated Crafting from the Skilled Craftsman feat is very important here.)
4) A whitelist of possible Exceptional properties.
It may be startling that taking Master Craftsman just once can enable multiple magical crafting skills. I don't think this is OP; you still need to take Skilled Craftsman multiple times, and the time it takes to craft items is also substantial. The whitelist of things you can make is also somewhat more limited than the item creation feat.
something I hadn't considered, but I am not certain if the knowledge effect is active unless your attuned, which would mean a lot of swapping time loss.
Again, it isn't a huge issue if minimum skill ranks is not something you can bypass.
You're right that it takes 24 hours for the bonus to be considered permanent so you get the skill points. But....
Take real ranks in the skill to make headbands of vast intelligence and whatever else those ranks provide. Set aside 4000gp to make two +2 headbands with the skills you need. When you finish with one that you need, you sell it and don the other one. In the time you are making another headband, the new one you put on will be attuned to you.
All this has done is increased time slightly. You could just change the amount of gp value crafted in a day from 1000gp to 500gp a day and not change any other mechanic. Halving the gp value crafted a day will probably cause a greater hindrance to crafting a lot of items than the many headbands method.
I don't like arguing with traits because this is the fault of the trait, but hedge magician will become even more valuable with your system as well. Perpetually selling headbands will net you 100gp per headband.
I don't disagree that this could happen, but it is a huge hassle. Nothing is going to get done outside of crafting if you are constantly attuning your gear back and forth. Its also no more broken than having one skill that governs all crafting simultaneously.
I don't see how the trait is any more effective on a mundane crafter than a magical one.
I dunno, I wouldn't want to eat a magic item slot at level ten. If you constantly have a +2 int headband on, you don't have something better there.
What I'm suggesting is that the new feat would function as master craftsman, however, every associated craft skill that had enough ranks would fall under its umbrella. As soon as a mundane craft fulfills the craft rank requirement, the craft skill is no longer mundane. Crafting is a skill, it requires enough ranks to be skilled enough to make magic items.
Simply adjust the wording of master craftsman to be inclusive, so that it applies to every craft skill that has associated character slots. Then alter the caster level requirement of crafted items into a minimum rank requirement.
It would be best to remove the ability to bypass the rank requirement so that the system would function smoothly with one feat.
The present system, master craftsman plus MIC of your choice allows non crafters to craft items just as good as a spellcaster had WITHIN a chosen specialty as opposed to being generally open.
I see this as a good thing because.
1. Spellcasters by themselves can't craft much of anything, they will generally rely on master crafters to produce items worthy of enchantment.
Disclosure: (I don't allow the cheats of Fabricate and Masterwork Transformation to subvert the process)2 If you take a look at any master craftsman in history or in literature, you'll find that they are generally specialised in one class of item, frequently one subset of item. The master katana maker doesn't do axes, shields, or armor, and Jewelers don't craft swords. The system allows for broadening with sufficient costs in development to do so.
Is there a real need for your blacksmith to be cranking out magic items other than what his central skill focus leans him to be. I don't think you want blacksmiths cranking out chimes of opening.
1. Really, they can. Few things have a DC higher than 20 and few mundane things have a relevant cost as soon as you get a few levels. The reason they rely on master crafters is mostly because master crafters can't do anything valuable with their time and casters can.
2. This is a fair argument, but I would say that that is the case of many things in this game. I know no historical or litteratural wizards that are known to be able to cast most spells in the core rulebook for example - rather, they just allow wizards to fill a lot of different tropes.
I don't think historical figures being known for just a single thing is necessarily a good argument for restricting PC's, but rather see it as something that could be added as a voluntary boost.
For example, instead of saying "a good katana crafter can only craft excellent katanas", one could say that "a good weaponsmith can craft excellent weapons regardless of type", and then add the trope of the ultimate master of a single type of item as a secondary feat or investment - something like a feat that gives +10 to craft (weapons) when crafting katanas specifically.
And I agree that a blacksmith may not be able to crank out chimes of opening, and neither did Trogdar's suggestion make her able to, unless she invested 5 ranks in craft (whatever is used for chimes) and thus is BOTH an excellently skilled blacksmith and a skilled chimemaker. While this may not be common in the real world, I don't think that's too powerful for a fantasy world. I mean, we have no issues with maguses being able to be skilled at both fighting with a sh*tload of different melee weapons, a skilled archer, being able to turn invisible and being able to turn batshit into fireballs - I don't think being so skilled a craftsman that you can craft both an enchanted sword and an enchanted chime.
viz Anti-magic fields, the fact weapons will work there is going to be completely overriden by the fact they are not magical the other 99.99% of the time...so you can shatter them easily, they don't scale to beat DR, and they don't pass magical DR. Which, as an adventurer, would you rather have?
Now, a magical sword that kept its bonus in an AM field, AND was immune to dispelling, would be nice. But, sorry, I'll take the magical +5 that chews through 4 types of DR vs the NM +5 a low level squib can Shatter with a wave of his hand.
Pretty much the only thing that should work for NM abilities should be Keen and Ghost Touch. Anything else you're really stretching for craftsmanship. weapons that are designed to have different abilities don't change the weapon...they become different weapons. And there isn't even a feat that allows dex to damage for 'any' weapon...totally magical.
Armor, I could maybe see Fortification, definitely Ghost Touch. NM Armor would be very useful, far more useful then a magical weapon, actually. Still run into problems with Shatter spells.
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To the OP: Your feats should specifically reference that you can enchant any magical item that can be made with an appropriate Craft skill. An Armor smith can make magical helms...which are all wondrous items. Yet by the feat, he can also enchant bows...which required fletching.
I do like the idea of Master Craftsman applying to any and all skills, and working as ALL the feats. What the wizard can do to any appropriate item by taking the Item Creation feat, a crafter can do by taking the appropriate skills and the Master Craftsman feat. One path is feat intensive, and the other is skill point intensive. That's a very good tradeoff.
==Aelryinth
viz Anti-magic fields, the fact weapons will work there is going to be completely overriden by the fact they are not magical the other 99.99% of the time...so you can shatter them easily, they don't scale to beat DR, and they don't pass magical DR. Which, as an adventurer, would you rather have?
I would argue that hp and hardness should increase for exceptional items, and I think giving immunity to shatter is fair as shatter explicitly mentions "brittle" and it'd be pretty fair to include "exceptional items are not brittle", but I agree with the others.
Pretty much the only thing that should work for NM abilities should be Keen and Ghost Touch. Anything else you're really stretching for craftsmanship. weapons that are designed to have different abilities don't change the weapon...they become different weapons. And there isn't even a feat that allows dex to damage for 'any' weapon...totally magical.
Agreed, mostly. I could see defending, due to a weapon being balanced and shaped better for defense making sense, but flaming, agile etc is out.
To the OP: Your feats should specifically reference that you can enchant any magical item that can be made with an appropriate Craft skill. An Armor smith can make magical helms...which are all wondrous items. Yet by the feat, he can also enchant bows...which required fletching.
With "magical items of your craft" I thought it clear that only those that are normally created with your craft counts. But I guess it could be cleared up. Right now I'm leaning towards trogdars rules instead though, they seem very sleek and simple to implement.
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I don't think item creation feats need exist. The feats are not balanced relative to each other, and it creates a disparity that need not exist between crafters of different persuasions.
A wizard will always make a great crafter. Its intelligence will ensure that it stays at the top of the heap. If you want to give it more options with regard to the bonus feats, just give them the option to take skill focus for craft skills.
So, what you are saying is:
- Item creation feats are removed.
- Items are crafted with their related craft/profession skill (and not spellcraft)
- All magic item creation requires master craftsman, but once you have it, you can use it for all crafts in which you have 5 ranks.Is this correct? That does sound like an interesting and very easily implented rule.
Magic item crafting will be much easier to access for anyone with skills, and most smart characters will quite easily craft simple magic items, but being able to craft the harder ones require quite an investment.
I like it.
If you do this with spellcraft, the wizard is no longer able to craft as effectively and the wizards bonus feats become meta-magic only.
Don't underestimate the changes that come in the details.
I mean, we have no issues with maguses being able to be skilled at both fighting with a sh*tload of different melee weapons,Most of them aren't though. Besides myself I've seen maybe one magus who wasn't a scimitar wielding kensai bladebound, which means they were proficient in ONE weapon.
That's for optimization reasons. I thought you argued from a worldbuilding perspective. A 5th level baseline magus is good at fighting with all simple and martial weapons (as an example of how good, even not considering ability scores, able to reliably hit a diminutive object from 250 ft distance with a longbow - and is as skilled with swords, flails, maces, longspears etc).
If you do this with spellcraft, the wizard is no longer able to craft as effectively and the wizards bonus feats become meta-magic only.
Don't underestimate the changes that come in the details.
Well, there's also the arcane discoveries and spell mastery. And it's pretty easy to label master craftsman as an item creation feat. It does lower the choices for the wizard but not by that much.
The wizard (and all other casters) will be nerfed in a way by such a change since they can't just dump their skills into spellcraft, but still they'll be able to craft things without wasting feats.
In other words, the wizard has easier access to some crafting but has a harder time becoming a master crafter of everything.
Whether that is desirable or not is a matter of taste, I guess.
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My comment is more pointing out that the shift to skills isn't inherently simplifying the system.
I don't think it is unreasonable to have the ability to craft magic items be a feat. I think there is a lot of room for discussion of what those feats should be and who should have access to them.
I think Master Craftsmen was an attempt to expand magic item production to the non-magic classes. I commend the effort, but I think it added a level that wasn't needed. It was a conservative approach, which is fine.
Looking at it, I don't see any problem with making craft arms and armor an open feat for all, and just letting the player choose between caster level or ranks.
Magic items there is the question of the spell completion item, but even that you can get around with UMD. I would be fine if that were caster only or required a feat.
And then there is the question of if that feat is giving to much relative to something like Craft ring/potion/stave/etc...
My comment is more pointing out that the shift to skills isn't inherently simplifying the system.
Agreed - it doesn't become simpler in terms of mechanics (at least not noticeably so). I don't feel the magic item creation rules are too complex now, though.
I don't think it is unreasonable to have the ability to craft magic items be a feat. I think there is a lot of room for discussion of what those feats should be and who should have access to them.
I don't think it's unreasonable either (a lot of games we play have it as a feat chain, as you've seen in the other thread, but that's a completely different approach) - but I don't think it's a given path. I think there can be several solutions and it's worth exploring different venues.
I think Master Craftsmen was an attempt to expand magic item production to the non-magic classes. I commend the effort, but I think it added a level that wasn't needed. It was a conservative approach, which is fine.
Agreed. My biggest issue with MC is that it's quite baddly written - I think the one who wrote it thought the purpose clear when ze read what they'd written, but to us as buyers it's not very clear.
Looking at it, I don't see any problem with making craft arms and armor an open feat for all, and just letting the player choose between caster level or ranks.
Magic items there is the question of the spell completion item, but even that you can get around with UMD. I would be fine if that were caster only or required a feat.
And then there is the question of if that feat is giving to much relative to something like Craft ring/potion/stave/etc...
I don't see any issue allowing any magic items (possibly barring scrolls, wands and staves, but I could see that too) to be crafted by mundanes.
- I don't see any issue from a balance point of view since it can be adjusted.- I don't see any issues from a worldbuilding/verisimillitude view as, hey, it's magic. Everything can be explained with magic.
- I don't see it as an issue with making certain things obsolete as casters already have plenty of nice stuff that non-casters don't.
Crafting rules won't be changed by our threads lol, nor do I think there'll be any changes before earliest a pathfinder 2.0, and that's many years away I hope.
Putting together good houserules is always interesting though, and may also aid others who don't feel the RAW fits them well.
EDIT: I would however appreciate dev input on how master craftsman works, but that's enough for a thread of it's own. But I don't care enough to actually create one so w/e.
I'm still hoping for a 1.5 similar to 3.5. Pretty much fully compatible, ironing out the wrinkles.
Yeah, that's what I'm hoping for with a 2.0. A refined system rather than an new one.
But I don't think that'll be around for several years.
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so,
i think it takes a good tennis player to appreciate a good racket, and an even better tennis player to appreciate an even better racket.
and by 'appreciate' i mean 'utilize more effectively.'
awhile back, this thread got me interested in the topic of 'scaling' magic items/artifacts. and i got to thinking that maybe the basic precept there could mix well with the homebrewing going on here.
example:
Mastercraft Dagger
This is the finest dagger available crafted by mortal hands.
Benefit: A mastercraft dagger functions as a masterwork dagger with an extraordinary enhancement bonus of +1.
In the hands of a rogue, a mastercraft dagger is considered to have the Agile weapon property. For every four levels of rogue the wielder possesses, it's enhancement bonus functions as +1 higher, to a maximum of +6 in the hands of a 20th level rogue.
Special: A mastercraft dagger grants it's enhancement bonus to it's wielder's CMD to resist disarm and sunder attempts, and gains an equivalent untyped Damage Resistance (DR) equal to it's enhancement bonus while so wielded. The Appraise or Craft DC to recognize the exact qualities of this dagger is 30.